Weekend Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 11:35:08 PM EST
Tags: Telluride (all tags)

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larger version here.

I'm headed back to Telluride today to prepare for a court hearing on Monday. The courthouse is the building with the clock in the picture.

I won't have time to ski, but if you've ever wondered what the slopes there look like, check out these pictures.

For those of you online this weekend, here's a space to chat.

TalkLeft is nominated in the "Best of the Top 250 Blogs." If you'd like to vote for us, we'd appreciate it. Just click here.

You can vote once a day until December 15.

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Weekend Open Thread | 109 comments (109 topical)

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Surprise, surprise (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:48:57 AM EST

In a funny coincidence, as the ISG report recommends privatizing Iraq's oil industry:

November 27, 2006
#2006-137
The Carlyle Group Establishes Middle East Investment Operation
Carlyle Group

aw (1.00 / 0) (#22)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:35:54 AM EST

Given that we are not a socialist country, what do you find strange about the Iraqi Surrender Group, aka ISG, recommending an industry be privatized?

Parent

Strange (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:40:56 AM EST

I think it is strange because that decision should be left to the Iraqi people...remember them?

The oil belongs to the people that live on top of it...not the Carlysle Group, Exxon-Mobil, or a group of hand-picked Iraqi businessmen.

Parent

Kdog (1.00 / 0) (#32)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:47:22 AM EST

Tt is a "recommendation."

Do you see the difference??

Parent

: Strong-arm (none / 0) (#36)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:56:40 AM EST

A recommendation at the end of a gun...the recommendation of an occupier with an economic agenda.
Let's see if the Iraqi people have the power to turn it down...it seems the majority are against it.

Parent

There is nothing (none / 0) (#24)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:56:16 AM EST

strange about it, right? Right...

Parent

: That (none / 0) (#33)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:48:46 AM EST

says it all, Edger

Parent

Aha! (none / 0) (#19)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:04:12 AM EST

Maybe that's the mysterious victory our govt. refers to...the privitization of the oil.

Money money money money....money!

Parent

Really (none / 0) (#20)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:08:49 AM EST

What a surprise:

August 31, 2005 CORONADO, Calif. -- President Bush answered growing antiwar protests yesterday with a fresh reason for US troops to continue fighting in Iraq: protection of the country's vast oil fields, which he said would otherwise fall under the control of terrorist extremists.

One more thing he's failed at.

Parent

It may not be (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:11:36 AM EST

so easy this time around, aw.

Link

I dunno (none / 0) (#25)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:58:35 AM EST

I clicked through the links and there doesn't seem to be anything very recent there. Also, the website for The General Union of Oil Employees (Basra) doesn't seem to exist anymore. I wonder how they are doing now.

I did find this at Global Policy Forum, which is only slightly more recent, Nov 2005.

This report reveals how an oil policy with origins in the US State Department is on course to be adopted in Iraq, soon after the December elections, with no public debate and at enormous potential cost. The policy allocates the majority (1) of Iraq's oilfields - accounting for at least 64% of the country's oil reserves - for development by multinational oil companies.
Iraqi public opinion is strongly opposed to handing control over oil development to foreign companies. But with the active involvement of the US and British governments a group of powerful Iraqi politicians and technocrats is pushing for a system of long term contracts with foreign oil companies which will be beyond the reach of Iraqi courts, public scrutiny or democratic control.
...
Under the likely terms of the contracts, oil company rates of return from investing in Iraq would range from 42% to 162%, far in excess of usual industry minimum target of around 12% return on investment.
...
The debate over oil "privatisation" in Iraq has often been misleading due to the technical nature of the term, which refers to legal ownership of oil reserves. This has allowed governments and companies to deny that "privatisation" is taking place. Meanwhile, important practical questions, of public versus private control over oil development and revenues, have not been addressed.
The development model being promoted in Iraq, and supported by key figures in the Oil Ministry, is based on contracts known as production sharing agreements (PSAs), which have existed in the oil industry since the late 1960s. Oil experts agree that their purpose is largely political: technically they keep legal ownership of oil reserves in state hands (3), while practically delivering oil companies the same results as the concession agreements they replaced.
...
PSAs represent a radical redesign of Iraq's oil industry, wrenching it from public into private hands. The strategic drivers for this are the US/UK push for "energy security" in a constrained market and the multinational oil companies' need to "book" new reserves to secure future growth.
Despite their disadvantages to the Iraqi economy and democracy, they are being introduced in Iraq without public debate.
It is up to the Iraqi people to decide the terms for the development of their oil resources. We hope that this report will help explain the likely consequences of decisions being made in secret on their behalf.

I wonder how much say the Iraqi people (those who are left) will have in the end.

Parent

: RE: I wonder... (none / 0) (#40)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:06:15 PM EST

how much say the Iraqi people (those who are left) will have in the end.
Probably very little, aw. The Iraqis will never see nearly 90% of any profit from Iraqi oil.
Here is some more recent information from Greg Palast on October 26th, 2006 in a Guest Column By Antonia Juhasz*:
Are U.S. Corporations Going to "Win" The Iraq War?

As I also detail in The Bush Agenda, U.S. oil companies - previously all but shutout of Iraq's oil sector, are on the verge of winning Iraq's oil prize.
On September 10, Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister repeated a pledge made earlier this year by Oil Minister al-Shahristani that Iraq would have a new national petroleum law by the end of 2006. The law will open Iraq's currently nationalized oil industry to private foreign oil companies on terms unprecedented in the Middle East or in any oil-rich nation. According to Iraqi Vice President Mahdi, the law will be "very promising to the American investors and to American enterprise, certainly to oil companies." The law mirrors proposals originally set out by the Bush administration prior to the March 2003 invasion.
Meeting four times between December 2002 and April 2003, members of the U.S. State Department's Oil and Energy Working Group agreed that Iraq "should be opened to international oil companies as quickly as possible after the war" and that the best method for doing so was through Production Sharing Agreements (PSAs).
None of the top oil producers in the Middle East use PSAs because they favor private companies at the expense of the exporting governments. In fact, PSAs are only used in respect to about 12 percent of world oil reserves. PSAs are the favorite of international oil companies and the worst-case scenario for oil-rich states.
In August 2004, the U.S.-appointed interim Prime Minster of Iraq, Ayad Allawi (a former CIA operative), submitted guidelines for a new petroleum law recommending that the "Iraqi government disengage from running the oil sector" and that all undeveloped oil and gas fields in Iraq be turned over to private international oil companies using PSAs. Allawi's proposal is the basis of the current proposed oil law and could potentially give foreign companies control over approximately 87 percent of Iraq's oil.
The Bush administration and U.S. oil companies have maintained constant pressure on Iraq to pass the new law. The administration appointed an advisor to the Iraqi government from Bearing Point Inc., a Virginia-based private consultancy firm, to support completion of the law. This past July, U.S. Energy Secretary Bodman announced in Baghdad that senior U.S. oil company executives told him they would not enter Iraq without passage of the new law.
This month, Petroleum Economist Magazine reported that U.S. oil companies put passage of the oil law before security concerns as the deciding factor over their entry into Iraq. Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world, reserves that are cheap to exploit and worth literally trillions of dollars. U.S. oil companies want in, but on their own terms. They are, quite simply, trying to get the best deal possible out of a war-ravaged and occupied nation. They are also holding U.S. troops hostage. Let's face it, once they get their lucrative contracts, they will still demand protection to get to work. What better security force is there than 140,000 American troops?

*Antonia Juhasz is a policy-analyst, author and activist living in San Francisco. She is a Visiting Scholar at the Washington, DC-based Institute for Policy Studies. Juhasz is an expert on all aspects of international trade and finance policy with a Masters Degree in Public Policy from Georgetown University, experience as a Legislative Assistant to two United States Members of Congress, and over ten years of work in the field. She is a passionate writer and speaker who conveys complex information in a manner that is both accessible and motivational to others.
Antonia Juhasz is author of the new book, The Bush Agenda: Invading the World, One Economy at a Time
-----
As an aside: It's interesting that it's often the women who figure this stuff out long before the men ever get a clue. ;-)

Parent

Neocons of Freedom (4.00 / 0) (#92)
by jondee on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 11:36:11 AM EST

Safire? You've gotta be effing kidding me (A.E Housman once said that). Apparently this is part of Bush's deal: every year at least one neocon gets the Medal of Freedom. Last time it was Norm (Chickenhawk) Podhoretz. This will probobly stay in effect as long as theres still one person left alive in Iraq.

Etc (4.00 / 0) (#93)
by jondee on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 12:12:35 PM EST

The frontrunner for next year should be Buckley, but he's been mildly critical of the occupation (a punishable offense), so it'll probobly go post-humously to Jeanne Kirkpatrick or Rush Limbaugh.

Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#7)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:42:31 AM EST

You wrote:

I'd be happy to provide them on the next open thread...

Well, here is an open thread.

It's early, Jim (none / 0) (#9)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:53:32 AM EST

What the hell are you shouting for?

Parent

Waking sailor (1.00 / 0) (#26)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:16:31 AM EST

I'm just trying to wake up Sailor. He said he wanted an open thread to provide us with some links to things I have commented, and here we have it.

SAILOR!!!!! The sun is up!!! Get to linking!!!

Clay lies still, but blood's a rover;
Breath's a ware that will not keep.
Up, lad; when the journey's over
There'll be time enough for sleep."
AE Housman

Parent

How (none / 0) (#27)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:18:13 AM EST

do you know the sun is up where he is?

Parent

: I hope this helps (1.00 / 0) (#46)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:32:27 PM EST

Do you know anything about poetry?
Let me help. It is supposed to create a place, a feeling that says we should dare to explore, to not lie in our bed of old information.
So the sun is always up to those whose minds are not closed and locked into a certain dogma.
There now, I hope that helped.

Parent

Missed the point again, huh? (none / 0) (#41)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:09:12 PM EST

As usual, no one expected you to get it.

Parent

Civil answer (1.00 / 0) (#47)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:34:11 PM EST

No edger, I knew you were just being snarky, I just decided to give you an honest, civilized answer.

Parent

Sailor, where are you????? (1.00 / 0) (#54)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:49:58 PM EST

sailor!!! Where are you??????

Parent

He probably (none / 0) (#74)
by roger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:04:02 PM EST

has a life today

Parent

Roger it was sailor's idea. (none / 0) (#101)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 08:44:31 AM EST

I'm just trying to help him.

Parent

ppj endorses torture (5.00 / 1) (#111)
by Sailor on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 12:56:14 PM EST

Jeez, that poor fellow is shrill isn't he? Ya take a well deserved weekend off and he starts screaming like a 2 year old w/o banky!

The offer wasn't made to you ppj, it was made to reasonable folks who have the ability to modify for thinking when presented with new facts, you are proud that you don't have that ability, e.g.

Posted by JimakaPPJ
October 13, 2006 11:44 AM
Bah humbug. That's the story I heard and I'm sticking to it..

IRT ppj's endorsement of torture by the gov't, ladies & gentlemen I give you the (unintentially) comedic stylings of ppj:

Re: ACLU Releases 1,000 Pentagon Documents on Guan (none / 0) (#4)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 05:56:14 PM EST
[...]
Sailor[...] I wonder why you are complaining about a little torture? BTW - I don't give you the Halliburton point, and say that there was very little torture.

Re: Torture is a Moral Issue (none / 0) (#18)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 20, 2006 at 07:16:18 AM EST
we need to redefine what is torture.

Responding to a post by Bill Arnett commenting on Jose Padilla's treatment As a veteran I am so ashamed of this treatment of an American citizen in this manner., ppj's reply?

False claims (1.00 / 3) (#42)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:54:13 PM EST
As a veteran I condemn Bill's untowardly comments and attacks.
Bill. You have no proof what so ever, why are you so anxious to always believe these claims?

And later on the thread, ppj endorses the torture of Padilla when he quotes an online poll at AOL:

Hope (1.00 / 2) (#26)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:16:55 AM EST
[...] Just signed on to AOL, which is an admittedly ISP favorite of the young... those people who supposedly are anti-war on terror...
Guess what? 67% approve of his [Padilla's] treatmemt.
There may be some hope for the younger generation after all.

So ppj was endorsing treatment which included an American citizen being held indefinitely by the military, being held without access to a lawyer for 3 years and tortured to the point he is now mentally ill.

Re: ACLU Releases 1,000 Pentagon Documents on Guan (none / 0) (#15)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 06:04:24 AM EST
[...] A special Guantanamo investigator, Air Force Lt. Gen. Randall Schmidt, subsequently told Congress that al-Qahtani was also forced to wear a woman's bra, dance with a male guard, "perform dog tricks'' and was smeared with fake menstrual blood to lower his self-esteem - techniques the general described as "degrading and abusive'' but not inhumane.
The above is not torture.

ppj of course failed to also list the other 'treatments' approved by Lt. Gen. Randall Schmidt. The Department of Justice, The GenCons and The Convention Against Torture all disagree with ppj.
So do I.

Bush has said we follow the GenCons, the Supreme Court has mandated the GenCons, and the GenCons don't allow interrorgation, much less torture, of ANYONE! Especially note Artcile 75, 7b (b) Any such persons who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or this Protocol shall be accorded the treatment provided by this Article, whether or not the crimes of which they are accused constitute grave breaches of the Conventions or of this Protocol.

A example of ppj's willingness to censor Americans' excersizing their right to free speech is right here on this thread. In reply to Edger hoping websites supporting Lt. Watada haven't been "Silenced? Neither website appealforredress dot org, or thankyoult dot org is responding this morning, and neither of them is responding to pings...", ppj responds:

jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:42:01 AM EST
I hope they are.

If anyone wants further info, it's easy, just google ppj, torture site:talkleft.com.

Reasonable inquiries will of course be responded to. ppj, you can just talk to the hand.

Parent

Ta Ta DA (none / 0) (#113)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 12, 2006 at 01:10:10 PM EST

Thank you DA for your able assistant. Now, shall we get down to specifics?

Remember the charge is that I endorse torture.

DA and Sailor - Bah humbug. That's the story I heard and I'm sticking to it.. Same way you guys keep saying "Bush lied..." No middle ground left.

Now that comes from a post regarding Ashcroft and the covering of the statue, and refers to my comment that I understood it was covered for painting.

Then we have this.

Just signed on to AOL, which is an admittedly ISP favorite of the young... those people who supposedly are anti-war on terror...
Guess what? 67% approve of his [Padilla's] treatmemt.
There may be some hope for the younger generation after all.

I maintain that Padilla has not been tortured. If you are so dense to think that he has, fine. But don't claim that your poor judgement has anything to do with reality.

A special Guantanamo investigator, Air Force Lt. Gen. Randall Schmidt, subsequently told Congress that al-Qahtani was also forced to wear a woman's bra, dance with a male guard, "perform dog tricks'' and was smeared with fake menstrual blood to lower his self-esteem - techniques the general described as "degrading and abusive'' but not inhumane.
The above is not torture.

See my response to the AOL poll.

The issue is that what you regard as torture is not torture. Isolation is not. Panties on the head is not. Forced to wear a bra is not, nor the ones described following.

As for the Lt who missed movement and the military people who want to demonstrate, I merely hope they are put in jail for oh, ten years or so instead of hanging.

Guess I am getting soft in my old age.

In meantime DA, Ta! Ta!

You try hard but going yada yada yada proves nothing beyond your ability to go yada yada yada!

Parent

: Guess I am getting soft in my old age. (none / 0) (#114)
by aw on Tue Dec 12, 2006 at 01:54:18 PM EST

If you say so.

Parent

Then you missed twice.... (none / 0) (#53)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:48:26 PM EST

Parent

keep you off the street (1.00 / 0) (#104)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 09:10:29 AM EST

Dark Avenger - Nice attack. Very snarky and I am sure very humorous....

BTW - Have you tried late to establish a point and actually defend it?

So keep on attacking. Maybe it will keep you off the streets and out of trouble.

: You missed... (none / 0) (#109)
by Edger on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 10:15:00 AM EST

...DA's point too? Jim it was so obvious it must have taken a piece of your ear when it when whizzing past.
How could you miss it? No one else did.

Parent

DA gets trapped (1.00 / 0) (#105)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 09:38:33 AM EST

DA - Don't mind you linking but I do object you to trying to say I said something I didn't. That is dishonest, and you understand that.

Here is what was said.

Re: Indictments Returned in Oil For Food Case (none / 0) (#6)
by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 15, 2005 at 07:23:25 AM EST
Johnny - Call me an idoit, but at least I don't think we are capable of supporting a conspiracy as large as you posit.

Now, when you use the link, you see that you mispelled idiot, and when you follow the corrected link, we find you calling someone an idiot.

Re: DrudgeRock: Part II (none / 0) (#14)
by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 06:20:22 AM EST
The above post by PPJ (aka Dim) is a semi-forgery by some idiot

Catch a clue. You accused me of calling people idiots. In the information you provide you prove that I called myself one, and that you called someone an idiot.

BTW - Here is one in which I made a comment about my calling someone an idiot.

During several visits to your country one of your country men kept referring to us as "Colonials." At first I just assumed that he was kidding with us. After awhile I decided he was just an idoit. Turned out later he saw it as a term of friendship. I say again. The use of "suicider" is no worse than "parenting," and I am against both. They obscure rather than clarify and are trendy rather than helpful.

In my defense I note that I admitted my error.

Have you ever done that?

And thank you for being my secretary. Didn't have one before you got out and returned.

: DA trapped??? Heh. (none / 0) (#107)
by Edger on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 09:59:33 AM EST

You're trying to make a funny, right?
It's not working, Jim. DA isn't jumping through hoops trying to explain away his own comments.
You are. It's retty sad to watch, man.

Parent
: Dishonest (none / 0) (#108)
by squeaky on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 10:10:50 AM EST

That is dishonest, and you understand that.
The most dishonest commenter speaks. An expert liar....hmmmm....
Truthiness is a word now. Invented expressly for ppj and his ilk.

Parent
: Ta Ta (none / 0) (#112)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 12, 2006 at 12:43:34 PM EST

Uh, read the last sentence in my response..
If you didn't catch on to my using your own words to mousetrap you twice....
Your funny.
TA TA

Parent

New Low (none / 0) (#1)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:02:11 AM EST

Bush at 30%

: Nixon's looking good. :-) (none / 0) (#2)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:24:10 AM EST

Parent

thanks edger, (none / 0) (#3)
by cpinva on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:57:31 AM EST

you just ruined 30 years worth of therapy! :)

: welcome :-) (none / 0) (#4)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:23:39 AM EST

How do you think it makes me feel?

Parent

Bush got lucky yesterday... (none / 0) (#5)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:28:35 AM EST

...and did something that made sense. He gave B.B. King the Mrdal of Freedom.

It probably wasn't his fault though, I'm sure someone else made up the list of recommendations.

Wow... (none / 0) (#15)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:57:07 AM EST

it's rare when someone deserving gets one of those....Lucille get one too?

Parent

: Jeeze (none / 0) (#16)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:59:43 AM EST

I hope so. She's been good to him all these years!

Parent
: Here's (none / 0) (#17)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:01:21 AM EST

the list.

Parent

This should open a few more eyes out there (none / 0) (#6)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:05:58 AM EST

Privatize the modernization of the Coast Guard. Oy, the grownups are in charge, all right.

the Coast Guard hired Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, two of the nation's largest military contractors, to plan, supervise and deliver the new vessels and helicopters.
Many retired Coast Guard officials, former company executives and government auditors fault that privatization model, saying it allowed the contractors at times to put their interests ahead of the Guard's.
"This is the fleecing of America," said

Even some of the smaller Deepwater projects raise questions about management. The radios placed in small, open boats were not waterproof and immediately shorted out, for example. Electronics equipment costing millions of dollars is still being installed in the new cutter, even though it will be ripped out because the Coast Guard does not want it. An order of eight small, inflatable boats cost an extra half-million dollars because the purchase passed through four layers of contractors.

NY Times

: Well (none / 0) (#8)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:52:26 AM EST

Bushco seems have been doing their best to wreck the militarys' capabilities. Time to move forward and gut the Coast Guards' too?
Afte all the Bush, Crony & Associates Corporation Taxpayer Fleecing Division, DBA: BushBucks, is their primary profit center.

Parent

Active-duty military (none / 0) (#10)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:25:01 AM EST

Active-duty military personnel will protest War in Iraq on Wednesday

Wednesday, more than a hundred members of active duty military, reserve, and National Guard will speak out against the War in Iraq. Organizers say this will be the first time active servicemembers will voice a protest since the United States entered Iraq in March 2003.
Senior Navy Seaman Jonathan Hutto will be among them. He wants to make it clear. He's not against war, "I want to state that we're not pacifists here." He's just against this war: The one placing U.S. troops in Iraq.
Hutto says, "We think at this moment that the occupation is seriously flawed... We've lost many American lives - over 2,700, and 20,000 have been mangled and disfigured because of this war and we have actual priorities here at home that we need to look at - education, healthcare."
Hutto is stationed in Norfolk. He says he is one of 118 military, men and women, who are part of the Active Duty Military Project-- a grassroots effort to get the U.S. to pull troops out now. Hutto says, "There are active duty service members, reserve, national guard who believe that the time has come in the occupation to bring the troops home."
Wednesday, Hutto will be part of a national call to get military against the U.S. presence in Iraq to go to [www dot appealforredress dot org].
There military members can sign just that -- an appeal to their U.S. representative to bring American troops home. The website explains military members have a right to protest the war through their congressmen based on the Military Whistleblower Protection Act.

I wish... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:01:35 AM EST

the media would stop calling it the war in Iraq, and refer to it as what what it is...an occupation, like this brave sailor.

"We think at this moment that the occupation is seriously flawed

It ain't a war no more...it's an occupation. There is nothing to win in an occupation.

Parent

Not (1.00 / 1) (#31)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:45:18 AM EST

kdog - This guy is so brave he won't fight.

Parent

I'll (none / 0) (#34)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:50:22 AM EST

bet he's not afraid of naked men running in the street.

Parent

Bravery? (none / 0) (#37)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:01:30 PM EST

In order to be brave you need a noble cause otherwise it's called stupidity. Obviously this guy is not stupid.

As kdog pointed out, ppj, it is an occupation, nothing valiant in that.

Parent

Selectibe vision (1.00 / 0) (#48)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:36:40 PM EST

If the occupation is to allow a people to form a better goverment it is not valiant?

Huh??

So the occupation of Japan that demanded they, among other things, give rights to women, was wrong?

As usual aw, you have very selective vision.

Parent

: Why do you do this to yourself anyway? (none / 0) (#49)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:41:32 PM EST

Parent

Elementary School.... (none / 0) (#39)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:03:16 PM EST

I learned in grade school that it takes courage to do the right thing.

Don't you think this sailor's life would be a heckuva lot easier if he just did as he was told? He's taking the road less traveled...and that my friend makes all the difference.

Parent

Kdog I think you also learned (none / 0) (#50)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:42:48 PM EST

in school that you are supposed to do what you agreed to do.

These people are not doing what they agreed to do.

Worse than breaking the contract they made with the government, they are breaking the contract they made with their fellow military men and women.

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

I have no respect for these people. I hope they are punished. And I hope someday they understand the meaning of what Shakesphere wrote.

Parent

: Went right past you again. (none / 0) (#52)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:47:08 PM EST

Don't you ever wonder what all those whistling sounds are?
They're sort of like the toys I give to my cat for her to bat around. It's fun to watch.

Parent
: Bush shat on the contract (none / 0) (#56)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:54:03 PM EST

When he lied his way into this occupation.

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This guy is so brave (none / 0) (#42)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:11:19 PM EST

he won't fight for someone who lies to him daily and is wrecking his country as well as Iraq.

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Arrest (1.00 / 0) (#28)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:35:22 AM EST

edger - I have never heard of a "Senior" seaman. I hope the rest of the article is more accurate.

Link

I have also never heard of a "navy deck seaman."
Link

As for "whatever he is Hutto," the article got one thing right.

Whether you agree with the War in Iraq or not, some military members point out that active duty members acting against the war can only hurt morale for those overseas.
Cameron says, "They're supposed to be your brother in arms, and now they're over here saying you shouldn't be over there. Now you really-- it takes them out from being your brother in arms then."

I would think that the UCMJ provides some guidance in this. I hope these protestors are arrested, prosecuted.

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Brothers (none / 0) (#44)
by kdog on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:21:08 PM EST

That's exactly the type of brother in arms I would want...one looking out for my best interests and watching my back. I would think these soldier-initiated protests would be a boost for moral...the guy up to his neck in sand would see that somebody gives a rats arse about him. I just don't see "stay the course" being a big morale booster. Just keep on occupying and dodging IED's...how does that boost morale?

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Huh?? (1.00 / 0) (#51)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:46:52 PM EST

Watch their back?

kdog, many believe the actions of these people are giving aid and comfort to the people the military are fighting.

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Many people believe in Santa Claus (none / 0) (#58)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:02:59 PM EST

And that George Bush and Dick Cheney are war heroes.

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Many believe??? (1.00 / 0) (#69)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:29:39 PM EST

But intelligent ones don't believe the garbage you toss out.

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: Still getting things backwards, huh? (none / 0) (#70)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:00:15 PM EST

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Many? (none / 0) (#59)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:06:35 PM EST

You're the last holdout, Jim. No one else here has bit that rotted bait for years. How's it taste?

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Lt. Ehren Watada (none / 0) (#11)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:32:05 AM EST

Lt. Ehren Watada braves government bullying

Faced with a court-martial on charges of refusing to join his unit when it left for Iraq and contempt for the president, he spoke out at the Veterans for Peace national convention in Seattle last August. "To stop an illegal and unjust war," he said, "the soldiers can choose to stop fighting it."
...
Since Lt. Watada declared, "I won't go," at least 118 soldiers have signed a rare military petition calling on Congress to promptly end the Iraq occupation (www dot appealforredress dot org). In a stirring display of reinforcement, about 50 members of Iraq Veterans Against the War filed in behind Watada as he rose to speak in Seattle.
...
For information about how to support Lt. Watada, visit www dot thankyoult dot org.

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Silenced? (none / 0) (#12)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:33:50 AM EST

Neither website appealforredress dot org, or thankyoult dot org is responding this morning, and neither of them is responding to pings.....

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Hope (1.00 / 1) (#29)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:42:01 AM EST

I hope they are.

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Yeah I know (none / 0) (#43)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:18:36 PM EST

That thing the 1st Amendemnt is attached to is just a god*amn piece of paper anyway, right Jim?

You remember that thing that protects your right to say stupid sh*t like "I hope they are."?

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Nope (1.00 / 0) (#55)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:52:45 PM EST

edgr - nope. It is a very important thing, and has specific meanings. It is not, howeverm absolute, and it does not grant anyone the right to harm the country.

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Harming the country... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:00:05 PM EST

Includes such things as sending people to die for a business scam and looting the treasury to pay for that scam/war.

These guys are trying to prevent the continued harm and the continued erosion of everything that makes the Constitution worth fighting for.

If you believe in it, then you take their place and fight in it. The fact that you haven't done that speaks volumes for what you really believe in.

No one has any legal obligation to take part in an illegal and immoral activity...period.

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: Wrong as usual (1.00 / 0) (#67)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:27:21 PM EST

Ernesto - I did my turn. I think you served, although I don't remember how long or what branch.
No one asked you to be a hero, and no one is asking these people to be a hero. Just honor their contract and honor those they serve with.
That they don't want to speaks very poorly of them.
And as I have noted before, if service is a requirement to make a political comment on this blog, there will be very few of us here.

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: Exactly. (none / 0) (#61)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:12:40 PM EST

No one has any legal obligation to take part in an illegal and immoral activity...period.
And the reverse is true as well.

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So you (none / 0) (#62)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:45:56 PM EST

also feel Bush needs to be impeached, huh?

Good. We're making progress.

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Trolling (1.00 / 0) (#68)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:28:32 PM EST

Since you know the answer, I think you are trolling.

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You mean (none / 0) (#71)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:35:16 PM EST

you're not making progress?

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: Looks (none / 0) (#72)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:57:20 PM EST

like I missed some fun.

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Forgot the link to Watada's website (none / 0) (#13)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:35:26 AM EST

Lt. Ehren Watada braves government bullying

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Jail (1.00 / 1) (#30)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:44:05 AM EST

This guy is guilty of several things.

I hope they put him in jail for an extended stay.

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: Looks like (none / 0) (#45)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:21:26 PM EST

Bush isn't the only one who's hit a new low.

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: And I hope... (none / 0) (#60)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:08:04 PM EST

That members of the Fox News crew, Jenna/Not Jenna, and every Neocon offsrping safely holed up in an Ivy League school will drop everything and enlist in the military to serve in the place of the people you want to send to jail.

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There (none / 0) (#63)
by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:23:41 PM EST

is no such Navy rank as a senior navy seaman.
Or Navy Deck Seaman.
FYI

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so? (none / 0) (#64)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:45:25 PM EST

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So (none / 0) (#75)
by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:24:13 PM EST

Is the rest of the story true? Not very accurate if the station can't even get rates correct. Of the people did not know what rates to give the station. LOL. Do you mind if I link back to your so a few times?

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Got broken fingers? (none / 0) (#77)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:27:40 PM EST

Never heard of google? Go look it up.

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You can listen to Hutto... (none / 0) (#78)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:53:41 PM EST

...interviewed on Boston NPR here:

Appeals for War's End
Story aired: Thursday, October 26, 2006

We speak with Navy seaman Jonathan Hutto, who founded appealforredress.org, a website encouraging active duty military to contact their congressman to register their disapproval of the war in Iraq.

You'll need RealPlayer on your computer. I hope your ears work better than your fingers. ;-)

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: edger - I quoted (none / 0) (#102)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 09:01:02 AM EST

what your linked article said:

edger - I have never heard of a "Senior" seaman. I hope the rest of the article is more accurate.
I have also never heard of a "navy deck seaman."
You provided the link. Are you now saying the article was wrong??
BTW - If Hutto is actually a real person, then "seaman" should be capitalized, as in "We speak with Navy Seaman Jonathan Hutto..."
The author either didn't know his rank/rate or just screwed up. Either way it doesn't give me a warm feeling that the media can chew bubble gum and walk when it comes to reporting on military matters.
The link you provide made even greater errors. Given that Wavy 10 is in Norfolk, VA, a city with a huge number of navy people, makes the authors inaccurate comments really unforgivable.
Time to pay the military in $2.00 bills again to remind the locals just how important the Navy is to them.

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God (none / 0) (#35)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:56:26 AM EST

I love Telluride. Enjoy, J!

Anti-Gay Harassment in Davis (none / 0) (#38)
by Doug Paul Davis on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:02:08 PM EST

A 13-year-old student at Harper Junior High School in Davis, California was apparently harassed over a long period of time by a large number of his peers. His biological father is now divorced and has a male partner, who has become a father as well to the boy. So he now has two dads.

he kids are harassing the kid calling all sorts of anti-gay things, apparently one kid asked him what it was like to sleep with his father, etc. BTW, the kid is not gay.

This went on for a long time and then the family car was arsoned and burned to the ground on their driveway and it took some quick thinking by the kid to alert the family before the house burned down as well.

It was at that point that the family was alerted to the ongoing harassment problem. The principal was told, he disciplined some of the kids.

The family is upset at the leniency of the punishment--apparently only two kids were suspended and five were given detention and a number no punishment at all.

Second and more seriously is that when the kid has come back to school--twice, he has been harassed again and he's now missed a considerable period of time.

The Fischers filed suit against the Davis Joint Unified School District this week in a dispute stemming from the perceived failure by the school district to properly deal with an harassment incident.

Some of the details of the suit included: in-home tutoring for the junior high school district, institution of a mandatory suspension for all students making homophobic comments, appoint a nondistrict neutral third party ("other than Harper Principal David Inns") to monitor and implement a zero-tolerance program toward homophobia, and finally to pay a sum of $100,000 damages for failure to follow California law.

Mr. Fischer's son has not been in school now in well over a month. He was pulled out on October 31 following incidents of harassment that resulted in the suspension of two students, detention for a number of others, and no action toward a larger number of more minor participants. The Fischers do not believe that these students received a punishment commensurate with the offense.

The key concern at this point is that the student was harassed on two different days when he returned to school.

The school has recommended several alternatives including independent study. However, the family believes that independent study would be a blemish on his academic record that could prevent him from going to law school which is his goal.

Thursday night on the Sacramento ABC affiliate, they had a four-minute news broadcast:

ABC Video Link

For additional background on this read this link from the bottom up:

Additional information and Background

The more things change...etc. (none / 0) (#65)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:04:21 PM EST

ISG Cancels Howdy Dubya Show

Pee Wee Herman To Head Mideast Diplomacy Summit

Castro reportedly near death (none / 0) (#66)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:20:34 PM EST

Cancer-ridden Castro may not live to see in new year
08 December 2006, The Independent

The ailing Cuban President Fidel Castro is battling terminal cancer and could be dead by Christmas, senior Western diplomatic sources have said. Observers close to the Cuban regime have reported that the leader is suffering from an aggressive form of stomach cancer and has refused radiation therapy or any other form of treatment.

ppj's wet dream (none / 0) (#73)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:03:10 PM EST

Wonkette says:

It's not too late to get the ultimate War On Christmas gift. Now you or your loved one can also pretend George W. Bush was a Naval Aviator and led the nation to victory in Iraq!

think progress

If they rewrote the official history (none / 0) (#80)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:55:49 PM EST

it would be PPJ's reality.

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And... (none / 0) (#82)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:06:00 PM EST

...if he's REALLY good.

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: And if he's naughty (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:00:14 PM EST

he gets the doll, only naked.

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squeaky - Accuracy counts. (none / 0) (#103)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 09:07:07 AM EST

Gee squeaky, I see you are still depending on Left Wing Blogs, just as you did when you claimed:

Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

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{Lack of) Intelligence committe chair (none / 0) (#76)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:26:05 PM EST

Al Qaeda is what, I asked, Sunni or Shia?
"Al Qaeda, they have both," Reyes said. "You're talking about predominately?"
"Sure," I said, not knowing what else to say.
"Predominantly -- probably Shiite," he ventured.

Anyway they are all brownish...I think...

link

via TPM

Oh, no! (none / 0) (#79)
by aw on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:54:05 PM EST

Not again.

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: Again (none / 0) (#81)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:03:01 PM EST

Where do these people live? under a rock? At least he voted against the war.

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There are still a few good ones left. (none / 0) (#84)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:32:42 PM EST

Since 1992 Merrill Worcester, owner of Worcester Wreath Co. of Harrington, Maine, has been donating 5000 wreaths every Christmas to be laid at graves in Arlington National Cemetery.

Merry Xmas, DA. (none / 0) (#85)
by Edger on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:33:50 PM EST

Good to see you back here occassionally lately!

Underage sex (none / 0) (#87)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:02:16 PM EST

Sex with a 12 year old? clearly illegal...sex with a 13 year old? the same... But when the both of them are having sex together certainly shouldn't be a crime.

Utah Supreme Court justices disagree.

Randall Richards, the girl's attorney, argued that prosecuting children under a law meant to protect them is illogical.

Sounds nuts to me.

link

What really has me puzzled ... (none / 0) (#89)
by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 02:24:19 AM EST

is why he wants so badly to impeach dubya while at the same time loving theocracy so much that he wants to move to Iran.

I mean, I can understand why the Iranians would love to have him there, since they have such a socially liberal leaning population once you look past the crazed nutbars running their country, just like America under Georgie.

I don't know why, but somehow I keep getting this funny feeling that there is a hidden agenda at work here, and that he really wants to foist Pat Robertson on the country for preznitwit.

He has this apparent ability to contradict himself between the beginning and the end of a sentence, and sometimes even with just one word. But I know it's only apparent because I'm not in his intellectual class and he's so far beyond what I'm capable of. It's all so confusing, you know, DA? ;-)

: So confusing in fact that... (none / 0) (#90)
by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 02:37:31 AM EST

...sometimes it really hurts just thinking about it.

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Gulf Arab Nukes (none / 0) (#94)
by squeaky on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 06:12:56 PM EST

Gulf Arab leaders are considering a joint civilian nuclear programme, a move that could heighten proliferation concerns in the oil-rich region.
The decision to order a study, announced at the end of a two-day summit in Riyadh attended by leaders from the Gulf Co-operation Council, comes at a time of mounting Arab concern over Iran's nuclear ambitions and its growing regional power.
Abdul-Rahman al-Attiya, the secretary-general of the GCC, which includes Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, stressed that Gulf countries had the right to nuclear energy technology for peaceful purposes.

link

If I were them I would have been on it yesterday.

They probably have been on it yesterday. (none / 0) (#95)
by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 07:21:27 PM EST

Wow. Good find, Squeaky.

From your link:

Prince Muqrin bin Abdulaziz, the kingdom's intelligence chief, told a conference in Bahrain that Israel's arsenal could "encourage moderate countries in the region to set up their own nuclear programmes, whether concealed or declared, aiming at creating military balance in the region".

Will Saudi Arabia Acquire Nuclear Weapons?
Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS)

In September 2003, an article in The Guardian alleged serious efforts on the part of the Saudis to acquire nuclear weapons.[1] The Guardian referred to a strategy paper, supposedly considered at the highest levels in Riyadh, that set out three options for maintaining national security:
1.) acquiring a nuclear capability as a deterrent;
2.) maintaining or entering into an alliance with an existing nuclear power that would offer protection; and
3.) trying to reach a regional agreement for a nuclear-free Middle East.
...
[1] Ewen MacAskill and Ian Traynor, "Saudis Consider Nuclear Bomb," Guardian Unlimited online edition, 18 September 2003

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Yesterday (none / 0) (#96)
by squeaky on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 07:33:05 PM EST

Yes Edger, there is evidence that Abdul Qadeer Khan has, at the very least, been to visit the Saudis.

link

And way before yesterday.

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Just for the veil dance, right? ;-) (none / 0) (#97)
by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 07:40:54 PM EST

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Yes (none / 0) (#98)
by squeaky on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 07:48:30 PM EST

Definitely a dance, and quite veiled.

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: I guess that might be... (none / 0) (#99)
by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 09:43:20 PM EST

...where all the WMD's in the ME are. Outside of Israel, and on US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean, and Mediteranean, anyway.
George keeps up this snuggling up to dictators he's going to have to preemptivley invade himself. Hope he has someone with some skill and integrity at the UN to make the pitch. Bolton would have crucified him with just his continued presence.
;-)

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Three children 6 to 9 slaughtered, two wounded (none / 0) (#100)
by Aaron on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 06:36:34 AM EST

Three Palestinian Children Killed in Gaza Shooting

So-called adults play out there political games, in this case using AK-47s in an assassination attempt, and children paid the price with their lives.

I saw the bullet riddled Honda on CNN, green and blue backpack's strewn about amongst the broken glass and blood, testament to the young lives sacrificed. One bore a teddy bear kicking a soccer ball on its flap with the words "peace life" emblazoned across the bottom of the school bag.

Weekend Open Thread | 109 comments (109 topical)

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