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Tancredo: Immigration Threatens Western Civilization

Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo continues to ratchet up the immigration debate with ridiculous hyperboles. His latest, in Arizona yesterday:

Presidential candidate and U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo told supporters gathered at a private ranch here Friday that American culture, as well as the fate of western civilization, is being threatened by illegal immigration.

....“There’s an issue that is so much broader than all that, so much more serious. It is the issue of our culture itself, and whether we will survive.”

Then, he warned his audience that what happened at an elementary school in 2004 in Beslan, Russia, ("where Islamic terrorists from Chechnya killed more than 300 people") could happen here:

More...

“I tell you this story for a reason,” he said. “As I come down here through Sierra Vista toward the border, I am telling you that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that guarantees that the same kind of thing can’t happen here in the United States.”

As to specifics of Tancredo's immigration fix, there were no details:

Tancredo did not mention specifics of his own plan for solving the illegal immigration problem. Instead, he said that when people ask him what his solution is, he tells them simply: “Enforce the law.”

Sure. Yet he complains when the law is applied in a manner in which he doesn't approve. Like his call to free the two border agents who killed an unarmed drug dealer (by shooting him in the butt) and then tampered with the crime scene and engaged in a cover-up and went to jail.

“Instead of giving these people a medal for what they were doing on that border, they put them in jail,” Tancredo said. “Does this make any sense to anybody?”

It does to me, Tom.

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    What a dork (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:41:01 PM EST
    Immigration IS Western civilization.

    militarytracy -- DING! (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by the rainnn on Sun May 06, 2007 at 05:03:43 PM EST
    thank goodness tancredo
    is a marginalized voice.

    he has absolutely no shot.

    he is a sad, bitter, twisted
    little man -- he makes me
    ashamed of my birth-state's
    elective-habits. . .

    Parent

    Illegal (none / 0) (#2)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:14:45 PM EST
    immigration?

    Parent
    The concept of "illegal immigration" (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by scribe on Sun May 06, 2007 at 05:29:16 PM EST
    did not exist until the 20th Century, and even then, it wasn't until the second half.

    What did exist was some degree of control over borders by excluding either particular racial groups (e.g. the Chinese Exclusion Acts) or particular persons based upon personal characteristics (like incurable diseases) or actions (i.e., criminal records).  But, the overwhelming presumption was in favor of allowing immigrants to come in.

    Truth be told, I think the whole emphasis on "illegal immigration" is a Republican wedge issue, predicated upon holding up those filthy darker people with strange habits, furrin languages and funny accents even when they speak English.  For the Rethugs, it works because it drives the stupid/uneducated working class whites to embrace the Republican policies so inimical to those working-class whites' own self-interest.  It's really a replay of the strategy which made Jim Crow so successful.  In Jim Crow, working class whites were given all sorts of scare stories about blacks (all of which revolved around either "the black will take your job" or "the black will take your daughter") which were to be mollified by the working class' embracing the planters' descendents and realizing that, no, they really didn't need unions and leglislation to protect them against economic exploitation because they wouldn't have to worry about the blacks.

    In the 80s, I remember National Review writing about this a lot, couching it in terms of "history lessons" when, in reality, it was more like "here's the blueprint, boys."

    A lot of this is behind Bushie's "guest worker" and "raise the fees for legal immigrants" programs.  Bushie pushes the guest worker program by saying "It's needed because there are a lot of jobs which Americans can't be found to do".  Accurate, but only in part.  If he were honest (he isn't, but we all know that), he would have to complete the sentence by saying "... at the wages employers are willing to pay."  

    By way of example, I've read that in 1983, meat-packing plant employees in the Midwest were averaging about $11/hour with benefits.  A lot of them were unionized.  Today, those same jobs pay about $9/hour, without benefits and without union protection.  And the lines have speeded up.  That may only seem like $2/hour, but if you think that you are overlooking the effect of inflation, which makes that $11 in 1983 worth $22 today.  At the rates which the lines move today, that $22 would probably have to be more like $30 or even $35.  No American can live as a productive member of society, let alone raise a family on $9/hour.  But immigrants, particularly ones who aren't exactly legally here or won't be here beyond their guest worker visas, are just the wage slaves Bushie's campaign contributors need.

    A lot of this anti-immigrant effort also goes at further undercutting unions.  Real simple:  Unions set the base level of pay, benefits and employment conditions below which employers can't go.  Removing unions removes the floor, and the race to the bottom in pay, conditions, and so on, continues.  And Rethugs love that.

    Tancredo is, to the Rethugs, a useful tool (I wanna say someting else, but TL will surely zap me if I do) to thump the tub for the base, take an extreme position which legitimates moving the center rightward and make a lot of noise.  He will never be anything more.  

    Parent

    Thanks for the laughs (none / 0) (#13)
    by LonewackoDotCom on Sun May 06, 2007 at 05:55:12 PM EST
    I believe meatpacking wages were around $20 an hour.

    It's also interesting how you support massive immigration - including the illegal variety - while at the same time condemning others who support it and those who profit from it.

    Parent

    Slow down a sec (none / 0) (#14)
    by manys on Sun May 06, 2007 at 07:37:40 PM EST
    Do you mean to say that massive immigration - legal or not - is detrimental to the country in some way?

    Parent
    Just to be clear (none / 0) (#23)
    by LonewackoDotCom on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:04:32 AM EST
    I don't know what you're getting at, but obviously it is. Almost everyone realizes that, including Dems like BarbaraJordan.

    Parent
    Wile (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 03:20:34 PM EST
    You obviously misunderstand what she thought she said.

    :-)

    Parent

    Thankfully (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by talex on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:37:26 PM EST
    Americans have begun to see through all this fear mongering in all it's various from the Right.

    That sad part is that at least some of these Righty's actually believe what they say. Their living in constant fear is no doubt one of the reasons why they will not allow more that a hand full of Iraqi exiles into the country. People who just want to start a new life.

    But instead of seeing that they are probably worried that us having destroyed their country that they want to come here and get retribution instead. So keep them out! They are all out to get us!

    Native Americans had no border control (none / 0) (#3)
    by walt on Sun May 06, 2007 at 01:21:30 PM EST
    Obviously, the lack of an immigration policy led to the N. American aboriginal people losing their lands.
    Per Ambrose Bierce
    ABORIGINIES, n. Persons of little worth found cumbering the soil of a newly discovered country. They soon cease to cumber; they fertilize.


    walt (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 03:26:39 PM EST
    Actually the NAs could have ran off the New Arrivals pretty easy. Hundreds of thousands can overome hundreds, even if the hundreds have better weapons.

    The problem was morale. The Spainards religion offered a promise of eternal life and a superior moral code, though bad compared to today, to that of their existing society.

    Parent

    this is why trolls rule (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:53:09 PM EST
    Actually the NAs could have ran off the New Arrivals pretty easy. Hundreds of thousands can overome hundreds, even if the hundreds have better weapons.
    The problem was morale.
    ya see here, what really happened is that clinton(s) went back in time and used biological warfare (see smallpox blankets) and killed all the non-christians that inhabited the continent.

    Then they didn't try to take over the world and they tried to make sure every American got health care.

    Bad, bad clintons; bad native americans of every tribe, every belief, every culture; good rapacious europeans and salesmen and The One Who Server Ten Years In Navel Aviation. [sick]


    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:46:16 PM EST
    You suffer from a complete inability to read one post up from the one you don't like:

    Obviously, the lack of an immigration policy led to the N. American aboriginal people losing their lands.

    Do you think no one else saw Walt's comment??

    And I do agree. He was being trollish.

    Parent

    Didn't (none / 0) (#32)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon May 07, 2007 at 09:42:48 AM EST
    you try serve also?  

    Parent
    Please explain (none / 0) (#25)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:04:33 AM EST
    what you mean when you say the Spaniards had a superior moral code to the native Americans. What do you have in mind?

    Parent
    Al (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:56:31 AM EST
    For starters, the Spainards were promising eternal life, preaching love, etc.

    The NA ruling class was ripping hearts out by the thousands, etc., etc.

    In the ordinary NA's view, the Spainards' promise was superior.

    And, in fact, it was.

    Parent

    Al - This says it better on 1/21/07 (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:46:33 AM EST
    Answer 1 - My comment re the NA's said superior culture and technology. There was a reason that the vastly outnumbered Spanish invaders, even with superior technology, were able to control the NA's. The reason? A religion and culture that made all men equal in front of God, if not here on Earth. That was a startling and gripping concept for people who routinely endured human sacrifices


    Parent
    The ignorance is astounding, or is it? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:47:00 AM EST
    Within one hundred years of Columbus "discovering" the new world, there wasn't a single "native" from Hispaniola left.  Columbus's own words were basically "these people are nice and generous and simple and with only a few men and horses could enslave them all easily."  I'd get the real quote, but I'd rather you actually do some work.

    Suffice it to say, the Spanairds were after gold for their monach and empire, and they immediately began murdering natives who wouldn't go along.

    I have to stop.  I really don't think you could possibly be this ignorant and inhumanely so regarding such an important part of "western" history.  I don't buy your ignorance here.  There's something else at work.

    Parent

    General comment (none / 0) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:29:04 PM EST
    In all societies throughout history those with more power have committed atrocities on those with less.

    Did the Europeans? Of course. Did non-Europeans? Of course.

    I think, emotionally, we all like to side with the underdog but that doesn't mean the underdog has any claim whatsoever to a higher moral ground.

    No matter who you are your "people" have done unspeakable things, and I would imagine they've all have done so with what they felt was good reason.

    It would seem to me that an even-handed recognition of fundamental human nature would be useful.

    Parent

    I'd say that was implied, no? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:25:45 PM EST
    Did you get any denial from me of the "natives" own forms of brutality?

    Nope, because I don't deny it or try to sugarcoat it.  

    In other words, I assumed it went without obvious explanation.  Because it had nothing to do with Jim's assertion of superior moral codes and other hogwash.  

    And it has nothing to do with the reality of how, to this day, romanticized and offensively so is the story of Columbus and European conquest.  We still have the subtextual notion floating in the national psyche of "Well, at least we didn't have human sacrifice and pray to the sun or anything weird like that..."

    That strain of our own feeling of superiority to those who occupied this land before us is still stubbornly alive.  It's an odd thing that infects all societies in some way, the propogandizing of their own history that is.  But this is my country, and hence it gets more of my attention.  

    Parent

    All good, Dadler (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:58:52 PM EST
    my comment really was a general one - an et al comment - and not in direct response to your comment, although I didn't know who else's comment to hang it on...

    Anyway, honestly,

    Did you get any denial from me of the "natives" own forms of brutality?
    Nope, because I don't deny it or try to sugarcoat it.  
    In other words, I assumed it went without obvious explanation.

    That's fine, but I've never heard a convo where it actually did go without obvious explanation.

    My 2nd grader has learned about early US history and read about European v NA history this year in class and, no, "the "natives" own forms of brutality" was never discussed, the only thing he got from class was "our" white European "badness."

    Also,

    That strain of our own feeling of superiority to those who occupied this land before us is still stubbornly alive.
    whatcha' gonna' do?

    There are many NA that feel superior to us noobies. And dems that feel superior to Reps, and visa versa. And people who feel superior - and inferior - to others based on religion, their job, their beauty, their car, their kids, their choice of footwear, whether they watch American Idol or not...

    I agree, it's sh1tty. People can be sh1tty. Humanity should all rise above it. Like that'll ever happen...

    Parent

    But you DO realize... (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:17:46 PM EST
    ...our side did have its own unique and incomparable role.  That WAS our role.  We commercialized slavery as no one had before, for example.  Claiming some blanket equality of malevolence doesn't really address anything.  The specifics of history are just that, and can't be ignored because it's easier to say we're all the same so our role wasn't unique and huge and more influential.  We won those battles, we took an entire continent from natives, not a few miles, an entire continent.  We got to influence all that history, the losing indigenous people did not...we are the ones who have WRITTEN that history forever and over again.  If today a tilt is going the other direction, it is inevitable and ultimately good.  Uncomfortabel with it, well, such is life.  Titling the balance of historical propaganda rarely goes smoothly or to everyone's liking.  And frankly knowing many, I don't know any teacher who would deny violence hasn't played a big role in all peoples' histories, nor try to sugarcoat native abuses.  But they have a problem with simply equating the European conquest of North and South America with native violence.  Just as I'd doubt you'd attempt to justify or re-equate the impact of Pearl Harbor because segregation and racist violence was rampant in American at the time, so they just equal out and mean the same thing.  History is more than justifying our immorality by citing other's.  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:29:12 PM EST
    Personally I don't think there should be any "tilt." I think that's where we disagree ideologically.

    And, btw, when I was in school, I came away with much of the same concepts of early US history as my son has, so I don't buy the idea that such a "tilt" is anything new...

    Parent

    SUO (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:27:51 PM EST
    the only thing he got from class was "our" white European "badness."

    Exactly.

    Why do you think this is?

    Stupidity on the part of our school systems?

    PC BS?

    Well, I no longer accept it.

    Parent

    Dadler (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:49:06 PM EST
    Columbus's own words were basically "these people are nice and generous and simple and with only a few men and horses could enslave them all easily

    Hey you didn't believe Bush/Rumsfeld, and you are going to believe a guy who's been dead for almost 700 years?

    BTW - When Columbus said that he had not met up with the Carribs or the Aztecs.

    Suffice it to say, the Spanairds were after gold for their monach and empire, and they immediately began murdering natives who wouldn't go along.

    Who is denying that? I'm just saying that as bad as the Spainards were, the existing ruling class was worse.

    Parent

    You conclusion of "worse"... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:02:50 PM EST
    ...makes beyond no sense to me.

    You made a claim of superiority of morality.  That European plunder and genocide was better than native and indigenous rule.  If you'd even have said, well, the native leaders weren't much better, then I could have almost respected the opinion.  But you went that absurd next step of claming moral superiority.  As if Europe had never sacrificed its own in massacres and hatreds and Inquisitions and witch hunts, and on and on.  I can only assume that you really believe that Native Ameicans in the U.S. are better off then they ever would've been had their people been afforded the luxury of self-determination as yours and ours were.

    Perhaps we should invade North Sentinel Island, in the Andaman chain, where one of the last remaining and paleolithic societies remains, since we all know how brutal those prehistorics are.  We'd be right, yes?  Since we possess the moral superiority and eternal life stuff?

    Parent

    dadler (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:34:47 PM EST
    I said they were bad. What do you want, me to kick their dog??

    You can settle all of this in your mind if you ask:

    How did a few Spainards take over a huge amount of land and millions of NA?

    As I noted, no matter how much of a weapons advantage they had, if the NAs had wanted to, sheer numbers would have wiped out the Spainards.

    It didn't happen because they didn't want to.

    Now. Why didn't they? And don't come with the "gentle" BS. The Aztcs were quite warlike.

    Parent

    Love in the times of the Spanish conquest (none / 0) (#39)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:36:11 PM EST
    From reading your comment, you'd think the Spanish conquistadores were Buddhists.

    Actually they were Catholics, and this was the same Catholic Church that brought you the Spanish Inquisition. Eternal love, indeed.

    I admire the way you cheerfully talk about things you clearly know nothing about.

    Parent

    Al - That's not what I said (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:00:08 PM EST
    You write:

    From reading your comment, you'd think the Spanish conquistadores were Buddhists.

    This is what I wrote:

    the Spainards religion offered a promise of eternal life and a superior moral code, though bad compared to today, to that of their existing society.

    You see, on the one hand the common folks had rulers that would sacrifice slaves and captives by the 1000s and when they ran out of them they would stop by and pick up some locals for the "flowery death..."

    The Spainards enslaved them, killed some of them, tortured some of them, but at the same time preached eternal life and the love of Christ..

    Parent

    You can't be serious (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:24:54 PM EST
    You see, on the one hand the common folks had rulers that would sacrifice slaves and captives by the 1000s and when they ran out of them they would stop by and pick up some locals for the "flowery death..."

    The Spainards enslaved them, killed some of them, tortured some of them, but at the same time preached eternal life and the love of Christ..

    If the Inquisition, for example, was not sacrificing humans for religious purposes, what was it?  Or pogroms against Jews?  Or witches?

    And you have to realize the absurd comedy of your killing them while preaching eternal life and love of Christ line.  I don't know if you MEANT to sound demented as Monty Python, or what the hail you were even attempting to suggest.

    Parent

    dadler (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:43:04 PM EST
    Dadler... we are, or at least I have, been offering some reasons that a handful of Spainards were able to take over what would become Mexico  and millions of people..

    I have noted several times, and do so here again in the hopes that you will try and read, the Spainards weren't nice. In fact, especially as compared to modern standards, they were horrible..

    But know what? The standards of the Aztecs were worse.

    Now maybe if someone had told the common Aztecs all about the Inquisition they would have said, "Gasp! They are doing this to hundreds of people??? Pikers! Our rulers do it to thousands at a shot!"

    Leave it, like it or lump it, the Spainards offerred what the ordinary NA thought was a better deal.. The proof is in the pudding.

    Have a cup.

    Parent

    Again, you cannot be serious (none / 0) (#92)
    by Dadler on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:23:54 PM EST
    There is not a shred of evidence that Natives decided Spanish conquistadors offered a better future than their indigenous cultures.  None.  Tribes who were enemies of the Aztecs joined the Spanish and quickly regretted it, since they were obliterated as soon as their help was no longer needed.  All through the historical record, to boot, there are examples of desperate whites running off to join native tribes, then refusing to come back when offered the chance.  The reverse almost never occurred.  Look it up, do your homework.  Catholicism came to natives by the sword, not by choice, are you really going to claim otherwise.  That it's become a part of the culture is no surprise, but your belief that it came into the culutre by love and peace and choice is off the charts false and abusurdly so.  

    Again, within a hundred years, natives didn't EXIST in many places the Spanish conquered and enslaved.  They had been exterminated.  Just as the Aztecs were.  Is that the proof in your pudding that the Spanish offered a better future?  Are you really not aware that most of those you consider natives in all these places are really either Spanish or African.  Ain't no native Haitans left, bro, or Cubans, or Dominicans.  Columbus and successors obliterated them all.  How could native leaders have been worse?  Was their goal to obliterate their own people TWICE?

    Come on, man, I'm not saying Aztec culture wasn't brutal in its own way.  OBVIOUSLY.  But your illogical attempts to rationalize, and mitigate as "better", the conquistador's brutality is hypocritical at best.

    And as for how so few Spaniards could conquer so many people, I'd suggest you ask the same thing about a guy like Jim Jones in Guyana -- a much more recent occurrance with modern people.  Also, they took advantage of the native hospitality and spirit, which the conquistadors themselves noted as profound and cited as their greatest exploitative tool in conquering them.

    Parent

    Eternal Salvation (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Peaches on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:34:53 PM EST
    The Spainards enslaved them, killed some of them, tortured some of them, but at the same time preached eternal life and the love of Christ..

    And, don't forget, 72 virgins. Wait, I forgot, those are the bad guys.

    Parent

    Tom Tomorrow (none / 0) (#59)
    by Peaches on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:04:40 PM EST
    should get the credit for the 72 virgins reply.

    Right On Tom

    Parent

    Bad Link Peaches (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:08:34 PM EST
    fixed link (none / 0) (#61)
    by Peaches on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:09:04 PM EST
    peaches (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:44:56 PM EST
    You also forgot that was 700 years ago, and that the Spainards don't do that anymore.

    Moral equilavence doesn't become you. You can debate better than that.

    Parent

    btw. Jim (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Peaches on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:37:37 PM EST
    on the one hand the common folks had rulers that would sacrifice slaves and captives by the 1000s and when they ran out of them they would stop by and pick up some locals for the "flowery death..."

    Not that I don't believe you. I am just curious as to the source for the above.

    Parent

    Not to jump it (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:44:30 PM EST
    but I read about it Nat'l Geo.

    iirc, for one temple in particular the estimate was 20,000 beating hearts cut from the chests of live slaves as the temple's "opening ceremony."

    You seriously never heard of this?

    Parent

    Don't read Nat'l geo, (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:53:38 PM EST
    but I have read of some ritual sacrifices in North America. However, taking the evidence from some Archeological digs and interpreting (Guessing?) at the reasoning behind the unique practices of a specific tribe, then using this as a comparison and justification of the Spanish treatment of all Native American tribes throughout the Americas seems, well, not exactly tilted so much as completely twisted.

    Parent
    fair enough (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:17:47 PM EST
    fwiw, I'm pretty sure the Nat'l Geo article was about one of those mega-tribes in what is now Mexico.

    My son researched Sacagawea for a paper this year.

    At a very young age her tribe was attacked by another tribe and she was captured and enslaved. At age 13 she was sold or gambled away by her captors to a French trader who married her and fathered her child.

    Life was not pretty.

    Parent

    fair enough (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:18:01 PM EST
    fwiw, I'm pretty sure the Nat'l Geo article was about one of those mega-tribes in what is now Mexico.

    My son researched Sacagawea for a paper this year.

    At a very young age her tribe was attacked by another tribe and she was captured and enslaved. At age 13 she was sold or gambled away by her captors to a French trader who married her and fathered her child.

    Life was not pretty.

    Parent

    Life was nor is (none / 0) (#81)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 07:43:05 AM EST
    I feel sorry for her.

    I am not sure of the morale of the story, though. Human life is suffering. Most of us suffer. Sometimes when we suffer, we want others to suffer to make our suffering seem less. I don't know. Poor girl.

    Her story was told because she married the French trader and had a child with him. Many others suffered whose story we will never know or can only guess at. A poor indian girl had a life that was full of hardship and suffering. I wish it was not so. I wish that there were less cases like hers and none like hers today.

    But, I am still a little confused as to why you bring up her story. What does it tell us about ourselves? What should we walk away with after hearing it? That Indians did bad things to Indians , so we should not feel shame over what our ancestors did to Native Americans to further our own prosperity? Or, that human life is suffering and we should grieve for all those who suffer or suffered before us?


    Parent

    I don't know why I brought it up (none / 0) (#89)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:57:42 AM EST
    Peaches, interest maybe? Context? Painting a picture? Take from it what you want or can.

    I had no idea of her backstory until my son did a report on her this year and it gave me a better idea of what life was like back then.

    Her story was told because she married the French trader and had a child with him.
    However, not to pic nits, but this comment makes me wonder if you know who she was...hey, did you go to public school? ;-)

    Parent
    Yes, I did, (none / 0) (#90)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:07:24 PM EST
    Go to PS.

    I never heard of her story before, though. Although, the story does not surprise me.

    Parent

    Thanks for being honest (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:12:21 PM EST
    Sacagawea. You might have seen her likeness on some of our money.

    Parent
    Peaches (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:50:19 PM EST
    Uh, I think I am in a time warp.

    Noting what two cultures did 700 years ago, and that one was somewhat better than the other is not "approval" or "justifiation."

    But again, Judging from the results, the common Aztec preferred the Spainards bad acts over their rulers bad acts.


    Parent

    Jim, (none / 0) (#82)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 07:51:57 AM EST
    I'm not surprised you would be so bold as to guess what an Aztec Indian would prefer. I don't know what they would prefer. I really don't. I really have no idea about the "common" Spaniard or the "Common Aztecs" Preferences. It doesn't seem like history says much about preferences. Perhaps, people with agendas speak of preferences, I'm not sure.

    ps. The Aztecs were not Hunter and Gatherers, fwiw.

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 08:09:01 AM EST
    You mean that it wasn't hunter/gathers that built all those temples, cities, palaces? Surprise, Surprise..

    Funny. All this got started when Walt opined:

    Obviously, the lack of an immigration policy led to the N. American aboriginal people losing their lands.

    Good warning based on the 15 million or so illegal aliens we have in the country.

    Parent

    yes, this thread is far off track (none / 0) (#86)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 08:17:38 AM EST
    my comment on Aztecs and H&G was made because you often seem to use what ever is handy when s[peaking of Native Americans. You describe them as H&G, when you are making one point and take examples from Agricultural Societies when making another. I think it was in the Defending Rove Thread (another thread that got off track) when you chastised Squeaky suggesting that Native Americans were not H&G.

    I just find it curious that you always have to make these outlandish claims about Native Americans whenever someone brings up the idea that Europeans treated Native Americans harshly. By Outlandish, I mean speaking of preferences and citing one source interpreting a singular tribe and a singular practice that we know very very little about and is less established as scientific fact or true knowledge than global warming is.

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:22:22 AM EST
    I think that the majority of the NA tribes/groups were hunter gathers, although the largest number of people were probably not. I make that guess based on the fact that an agriculture based society can support far more people than a H/G per societal group.

    My comments started with me noting to Dadler than Columbus had never met the Carribs and the Aztec when he said the NA's were kind and gentle, so we switched at that point.

    I use the Aztecs because they are the most well known. And yes, H/G's had some nasty traits themselves. The Carribs are thought to have been cannibals and made their mark by attacking other tribes.

    The confusion was expanded when I used a link from another thread where the comment was about H/G. I'll try to be clearer in the future. At this time I will excuse myself by blaming the nested format. ;-)

    My overall objection is based on the concept that, PC nonsense aside, the Native Americans ran into a  culture that was advanced in technology. And, certainly in the case of the Aztecs and some others, the Spainards promise of eternal life and equality before God was startling to the common people. I would guess that it also grabbed the "rulers" as a concept. Anyway, I think that was the base cause of the lack of any real military success by the Aztecs.

    And yes, I think the moral code of the Spainards was superior. I also think that the European society as a whole was superior in "rights." For example, English common law was quite advanced at that time.

    So overall, my point is that I don't defend what the Spainards, the English, the Americans, et al did. I just note that it happened, and that I am not to blame and will accept no responsibility.
    The "sins of the fathers" doesn't work for me because it leads to feuds that last for generations.

    But I also don't accept the "Noble Savage" view so often used in today's educational world, and so beloved of the Left.

    BTW - Have you read "The Contested Plains?" It offers a fairly good look at how various tribes replaced each other over a period of time.

    The question is, "Who will replace us?"

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:45:36 PM EST
    Oh, just read some history...

    Parent
    Abu Gonzales (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:11:15 PM EST
    ....killed some of them, tortured some of them, but at the same time preached eternal life and the love of Christ.

    Looks like we are happily keeping up the tradition.  Progress is keeping our enemies alive so that we can torture them over many years. What a waste it must have been to immedialtey rip out a prisoners heart, savages, no?, ppj.

    Parent

    Squeaky has now switched from (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:53:30 PM EST
    Rove to Gonzales.

    Without a hint of facts, no historial references... Why it reminds me of:

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.



    Parent
    The love of Christ? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    We have a saying for this in Spanish: "A Dios rogando y con el mazo dando", which roughly translated means "praying to God while striking with the club".

    It doesn't matter what you preach. What matters is what you do.

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:57:36 PM EST
    Who is arguing with that?

    Again. We're comparing bad things done 700 years ago by two cultures.

    I say the Aztecs were worse.

    Outside of the fact that it doesn't attack current western culture for what Spainards did 700 years ago, I can see no reason you would disagree.

    We have a Southern saying... but I'd embarass both of us if I used it.

    Parent

    Probably (none / 0) (#88)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:45:12 AM EST
    The Cock Roaches.

    I will look into "The Contested Plains."

    "Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond proposes that European domination of the tribes on the continent was more the result of random luck than any particular stage of advancement.

    According to Diamond. Europeans built up immunities to many diseases over many years due to the domestication of animals. In the Americas there were no large herbivores that were suitable for domestication. At least not as suitable as cattle, horses, pigs and poultry. Gunpowder and Steel also led to an advantage that was difficult for the Indians to resist, especially upon first encounters.

    I doubt that the Aztecs chose the European Christian faith as much as it was forced upon them. The moral superiority of one culture over the other is difficult to assess. I dislike aspects of both cultures and certainly see many things wrong with our own. We can learn from past mistakes and the suffering of individuals and cultures in the past to make better and more compassionate choices today. I don't think it is about assigning blame as much as acknowledging our humanity and expressing both sympathy and empathy for past victims while creating less opportunities for victims today of similar transgressions or crimes.

    Parent

    What part is difficult? (none / 0) (#5)
    by LonewackoDotCom on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:03:36 PM EST
    Massive IllegalImmigration is a strong indicator of massive PoliticalCorruption: it wouldn't occur if our politicians were doing their jobs. It is also leading us closer and closer to the NorthAmericanUnion: the U.S., Canada, and Mexico being joined into an EU-style superstate. So, he's right about that.

    As for Beslan, terrorists have already infiltrated the U.S. over the deliberately porous border. Odd how no Dem leaders have said anything about that.

    I'll supply the easy part (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by manys on Sun May 06, 2007 at 07:41:34 PM EST
    Do you consider Timothy McVeigh to have been a terrorist? What border did he cross?

    Parent
    No. I don't. (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:18:45 PM EST
    I consider him a despicable mass murderer...

    But terrorist? No. He was not part of a larger organization. And best I can tell, he had no plan for further attacks, although he most likely would have been willing to.

    Parent

    he was just as much a terrorist (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by cpinva on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:37:07 PM EST
    as the saudis who rammed the planes into the towers on 9/11. the only difference was the he was a home-grown terrorist, not an import.

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:47:54 PM EST
    What was his long term objectives, and how was he going to carry them out?

    He was a despicable mass murderer, but he wasn't a "terrorist."

    Parent

    Certainly McVeigh was a terrorist (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:24:19 AM EST
    Since when do you have to be a card-carrying member of some organization to qualify as a terrorist?

    McVeigh's crime was politically motivated. He was attacking the federal government in revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge. He specifically targeted a federal building. He plotted the bombing with others, and he may have had accomplices. He killed 168 people and wounded 850 others. This was not merely a crazed killer like the Virginia Tech murderer. McVeigh certainly was a terrorist.

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:12:21 AM EST
    You know Al, it isn't worth arguing about.

    You want to make McVeigh a terrorist so you can claim equivalence whenever someone brings up the fact that we have world wide organizations ran by radical Moslems intent on establishing Sharia law around the world through the use of attacks intended politcally destablize and cause ordinary people to cease opposition to them.

    McViegh was a despicable mass murder but he had no means to do more than he did. He was either a nut case very similar to the VT nut case, or one of the dumbest people every to walk on the face of this earth. Or both.

    Parent

    And YOU'RE not rationalizing? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Dadler on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:59:04 AM EST
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Mim, but when you present it you should be aware of how it sounds.  You set up your own guidelines for who gets to be considered terrorist, then knock down others for not adhering to your guidelines.  That's called begging the question.  To suggest Americans with anti-government agendas and who are armed to the teeth (and we know they exist) and whom express terrorists threats and inclinations, to suggest they aren't terrorist only makes sense if you consider domestic terrorism to be something that doesn't exist in your lexicon.  

    Would you have considered the Black Panthers terrorists, by the way?  Just curious.  

       

    Parent

    The real question is (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:42:48 PM EST
    do you think the Department of Homeland Security would do well to look for people like McVeigh and catch them before they blow up a building?

    And why aren't the detainees in Guantanamo given a proper trial like McVeigh?

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:01:26 PM EST
    The detainees in Gitmo are not US citizens and their crimes were not committed on US soil.

    They don't deserve the benefits of a US CJ trial.

    How many times do you have to be told that?

    And if the FBI wanted to do that, and they do, I'm sure you'd be screaming about the Patroit Act.

    Now, if another McVeigh blows up another building, will you accept responsibility???

    Parent

    This site needs immigration (none / 0) (#24)
    by LonewackoDotCom on Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:12:54 AM EST
    The lefties hereabouts don't seem to have much of an argument, and can't even spell simple words like "Rudy".

    In any country, a certain number of people are going to be wonderful, and a certain number are going to be bad. The existence of homegrown bad guys is not an excuse to import more bad guys. In fact, we should take steps to reduce the numbers of bad people in the U.S., and one perfectly feasible way to do that is to prevent terrorists from infiltrating the U.S., whether over the borders or via visas.

    On a slightly related topic, there's some sort of link between the OKC bombings and the leftwing SPLC.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:26:25 AM EST
      McVeigh was a "terrorist" as that term is commonly used and,  yes,  the fact we have native born terrorists obviously isn't a good reason to prevent foreign ones from entering the country.

      Preventing those who seek to cause harm from entering the country is as a proposition a no-brainer. That goal however cannot be legitimately employed to justify any  comprehensive travel and immigration policy no matter how restrictive. Just as the existence of native born terrorists does not justify locking up millions of people because some tiny percentage are terrorists, the existence of foreign born terrorists does not justify locking millions of them out because some tiny percentage are terrorists.

       We have many legitimate reasons to control travel to this country, duration and purposes of stays, the standards for permanent residency and naturalization, and the numbers allowed. There are also many legitimate reasons to have a policy that is less restrictive than what we have.

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:12:12 PM EST

    Terror:

    violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
    synonym see FEAR

    terrorism:

    the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

    Note the bold s.

    McVeigh's activities did not meet the definition of a terrorist.

    He was a plain and simple despicable mass murderer.

    Parent

    "Terrorism" (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:48:22 PM EST
    is defined by the US Department of Defense as "the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

      We can all find "definitions." Note this one is not so limited even though it is from a source hardly controlled by leftist ideologues.

       in common terms it is not considered necessary for one to be a member of a "group" (although mcVeigh was, as small and ad hoc as it may have been) nor is it strictly limited to coercing governments to grant specific demands.

    Parent

    Hmmm..... (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:19:35 PM EST
    Let's see, what possible reason could Bushlicker ppj have for arguing that McVeigh was not a terrorist? No homegrown terrorists in the USA? The only terrorists are foreigners? From the middle-east? What a coincidence.

    Parent
    squeaky (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:04:39 PM EST
    What a coincidence.

    No kidding. And so far they have all been between 18  and 35 years old and male Arab (radical) Moslems.

    What do you think, squeaky?? Does that tell you anything...

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#67)
    by Al on Mon May 07, 2007 at 05:30:39 PM EST
    I fail to see the significance of the "s". Terrorism is only practiced by multiple groups? That doesn't make any sense.

    Parent
    Al and Decon (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:07:52 PM EST
    My point to you and Decon...... was and is.....

    I think that to be a terrorist a person must be a member of an active terrorist organization. Otherwise he, and some of his buds, or just despicable mass murderers,,

    Now I know you, Al, disagree on politcal grounds. Deconstructionist (I think) disagrees over the definitions/use of the words.

    Have a nice day folks, I reserve the right to believe what I believe.

    Parent

    Where does one register (none / 0) (#80)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 08, 2007 at 07:25:42 AM EST
      as an "active terrorist organization"? What are the registration fees? What are the standards one must meet to qualify for registration? Do groups have to submit a business plan for approval to demonstrate they have a sound plan for terrorizing and that thry have  the skills and resources nbecessary to implement? Do the established terrorist groups keep lobbying for new and often dubious education and training requirements or more burdensome procedural requirements for registration to protect their turf from interlopers who might compete for the terrorist dollar?

      If one is starting a new organization and hasn't yet killed or injured anyone what is necessary to achieve "active status?" Are groups given probationary periods or provisional licenses and required to prove their bona fides within a certain period by killing or injuring a certain number of people. If a group kills or injures someone for political objectives wwithout being properly registered or obtaining a provisional license does the board of terrorist examiners take action against them?

       

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 07:54:04 AM EST
    Have a nice day folks, I reserve the right to believe what I believe.


    Parent
    now (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 08, 2007 at 08:05:50 AM EST
    you sound like your worst enemies here.

     Yes, you "have the "right to belive what you want to believe." That doesn't make it sensible or rational and believing something simply because "you want to" is the definition of close minded.

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:34:09 PM EST
    Uh, it sounds more like "opinion" than fact to me.

    ;-)

    Obviously my position doesn't meet your definitions and is also obviously a political position.

    And, as I noted, the desigination of McVeigh as a terrorist is defended by the Left for political purposes. Had he been Moslem he wouldn't have been one.

    Just watch how the "Ft Dix Six" are handled. No where in that post do you see the words "terrorist suspects" used.

    Parent

    Democratic Leaders have said much (none / 0) (#7)
    by Freewill on Sun May 06, 2007 at 03:00:33 PM EST
    about terrorist infiltrating our society however the message machine is too busy exhasperating about the cost of Edward's haircuts and Ruddy's ability to judge a dead person by simply looking into their eyes.

    The Democratic message is out there! Trust me! As explained over and over again by the Democrats, Terrorism is a tactic to instill fear in mass numbers of a society in order to destroy the way of life society was accustomed to living. Terrorism is used as a way to control the populace.

    Democrats time and time again have pointed out that there are Terrorists located inside of the U.S. The Terrorists are affiliated to an organization called the G.O.P.

    Parent

    Freewill - Here's your big chance (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:13:49 PM EST
    to help the cause..

    Throw some links on us dude. We're waiting to read what they said...

    Parent

    Extinction? You Betcha! (none / 0) (#6)
    by Your Conscience on Sun May 06, 2007 at 02:57:03 PM EST
    Says the Stegoceras to the Dyoplosaurus. Good thing evolution is not necessary here for this crowd.

    neither (none / 0) (#8)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun May 06, 2007 at 03:11:07 PM EST
    is spelling.

    Parent
    Can't happen here Tom! (none / 0) (#16)
    by dead dancer on Sun May 06, 2007 at 08:12:25 PM EST
    I am telling you that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that guarantees that the same kind of thing can't happen here in the United States.

    But isn't this one of the very reasons our Commander-in-Chief is spending billions in Iraq! Didn't President Bush say that we've taken the fight to them; that if we leave they will follow?

    McVeigh (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:33:19 AM EST
    had a well documented antipathy towards the US government. His attack was a direct result of his ideology.

    Btw, theres no historical (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:09:38 AM EST
    documentation, as far as Im aware, of anything remotely resembling any kind of mass conversion to Christianity movement amongst "startled" and "gripped" early aboriginals.

    Back it up or quit making things up, Jim.

    Jondee (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:14:08 PM EST
    And just where did I clain a mass conversion????

    You can't back that up.

    Quit making thing things up.

    Parent

    There's few things more (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:19:23 AM EST
    startling and gripping than being flogged to death, burnt at the stake or worked to death as slave labor.

    It's one thing to work (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:32:01 AM EST
    to minimize legitimate threats, it's quite another to appeal to primative, fear-based, superstitions about the threat of contamination to our innately pure, obviously superior, culture and traditions.

    As far as I can tell...... (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Mon May 07, 2007 at 02:01:05 PM EST
    Mr. Tancredo represents a culture of fear, suspicion, and a lack of diversity...a culture I do not share as a native born American, and in my opinion his culture is deserving of the scrap heap of history, iow, not worthy of protecting.

    You said, (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:55:34 PM EST
    to "the average N.A, the Spainards view was superior"; you have exactly 0 historical proof to back that assertion, Jim.

    Btw, it was the Arawak Indians who met Columbus; but you would already know that if you'd ever read anything about the history.

    Jondee (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 07, 2007 at 08:14:18 PM EST
    If you would read, what I told dadler was that Columbus had not met the Carrib and Aztecs.. before he made his "peaceful" statement.

    So, what is your point? Agreeing with me or trying to act like I said something I didn't?

    And I will again note that it is the judgement of history that the Spainards culture/religion was superior because if the common NA's had found it worse than what they had, they would have fought it. And they had the sheer numbers to wipe the Spainards out.

    Don't you just hate it when facts keep getting in the way of a biased belief??

    Parent

    Btw, "Coercion." (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Mon May 07, 2007 at 04:27:54 PM EST
    Is that anything like the purpose behind Shock 'n Awe? Or would blowing up a 90 people in a Hotel in order to establish a "Homeland" be a better example?