Nice try.

Your scenario requires that many if not most of the partygoers were aware what was going on and that many would lie or coverup what happened. The old "blue wall of silence." I strongly believe that would not happen. This is too serious.

It doesn't explain the lack of physcial evidence.

It requires an "adjustment" of a number of eyewitness reports in regards to time etc.... In other words, you need to make up or edit what people who were there said.

You need to make something completely up (the part about the Kim and "paid" sex).

You just ignore the statements of the players, Kim and most of what the AV said.

Since timestamped photos don't fit your timeline, you ignore them. Hard to ignore the watch photos, so you just leave those out.

You really give Reade and some other unidentified players for some quick thinking to establish alibis. If they were so bright, don't you think that the idea of a gang rape in a house full of people with multiple witnesses wasn't a good idea.

It doesn't address the multiple stories of the AV.

You throw in the old "we just don't know" in an effort to add credibility. It doesn't. I would submit that a prosecutor should "know" a few things before he or she proceeds with a case.

If your story relies on the need to alter almost every fact or eyewitness acoount that is known, accuses a large number of eyewitnesses of lying or a coverup, disregards all known physical evidence, add a few facts of your own with no evidence from anyone and places your faith in one victim's statement who has made a number of differing statments - well, that is what you wind up with - a story.

Not a prosecutable case.

Would you say "Hispanic" is a true race? It's something you can check on a box on a U.S. government form defining one's own race, but an Hispanic can be Mexican, Dominican, Cuban, Brazilian, Chilean, Argentinian, etc. His genetic makeup may or may not contain unequal parts of various Native American subgroups, European or African ancestry. An Argentinian whose ancestors all migrated from Germany can be an Hispanic like a dark-skinned Cuban.

True...I still am not sure how much she said, how much was inferred or perhaps misunderstood. Personally I am fairly convinced that her "recantation" to Shelton was a misunderstanding (she hadn't been raped yet), and her 4 dancers was a misunderstanding, (she was listing the employees of the escort service). I try to go by her own words from her interview, although I'm not sure that she was as dramatically scared and protesting (and actively resisting?) as she said.

Hispanic can be Mexican, Dominican, Cuban, Brazilian, Chilean, Argentinian, etc.

And what percentage of the people tried and found innocent of the charges for which they were tried would you guesstimate were in fact guilty?

I guess I still would like to know what's on the rest of the medical reports.

As far as time goes, Bissey is the only one, really

I'm suggesting she didn't protest as much as she says, and more than Kim says.

I'm suggesting that the first set of photos were taken by a different camera than the last set, and that the camera clock on the first set was fast, and the dance happened earlier.

I think the cover was paid sex.

I am fairly convinced that her "recantation" to Shelton was a misunderstanding (she hadn't been raped yet), and her 4 dancers was a misunderstanding, (she was listing the employees of the escort service). I try to go by her own words from her interview, although I'm not sure that she was as dramatically scared and protesting (and actively resisting?) as she said.

But I think mainly the facts I "altered" were Bissey's timing, the first camera time, and suggesting that the two sets of photos came from two cameras.

However, if you do an article search in general for genetic variation among races, you will find that virtually all scientists believe that race is a social, not a genetic construct.

Another way to ask the question is if someone came to you and said you must go to jail for 20 years and be branded forever a rapist or we have to let 1000 rapists free, what would you do? My rule of thumb is if I don't have the balls to do it myself I wouldn't ask someone else to do it for me.

PB, care to try to construct how a gang rape could have possibly occurred given the evidence that is known?

PB, so that means you have nothing to lead you to believe that a gang rape occurred?

I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself?

Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?

But...yes I'm still hoping that within those 1800 pages is some more information.

Well I agree with you on the sentence I put in bold. But I think mainly the facts I "altered" were Bissey's timing, the first camera time, and suggesting that the two sets of photos came from two cameras.

The ESPN source said hysterical and the search warrant said behavior consistent with going through a traumatic experience. I guess I'm still having a hard time believing that that evidence was just made up.

Noname, Brazilians speak Portugese and I suspect many consider themselves white, correct?

I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself? Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?

He's just a man, after all, and women NEVER lie about rape.

I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself? Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?

Forced anal sex does not need to be physically violent.

Would it seem strange to you that there was swelling of the vagina but not the anus in this case?

cib: gotta let it go, buddy. Don't you know that imho is the only one who gets to make jokes about mothers?

Now she will bring up what you said whenever she is at a loss for words (not that it happens all that often) to counter any legitimate argument you make.

It's not about the joke, Sharon. It's cib's "cute and funny" cover up.

Back to my reading: Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong. Laroquette is good, but he'd have to hitch his pants up a few notches and add some padding. Plus there's have to be some prosthetics to recreate the Nifong Schnozz with that weird bump in it.

Back to my reading: Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong. Laroquette is good, but he'd have to hitch his pants up a few notches and add some padding. Plus there's have to be some prosthetics to recreate the Nifong Schnozz with that weird bump in it.

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.

The photographs show the accuser has bruises and cuts on her arms, legs and feet," Cheshire said. "These are visible at the very start of the dance.

fahrenam posted: Oh, and photos are not taken during a rape kit. The physician or nurse has diagrams of the genitalia and the body and they draw on the diagrams where they see injuries. I don't know why that's the case, but that's how it's done.

Every S.A.N.E. protocol I have come across includes detailed intructions on taking photographs. Nongenital injury (snip) evidence.

Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong.

If black collegiate athletes today were indicted on rape charges on grounds as flimsy as those facing the white Duke lacrosse players, the civil rights community - aided and abetted by the national media - would by now have turned the case into a litmus test of racial equity. The men would have been likened to the Scottsboro boys of Depression-era Alabama; to Emmet Till, who whistled at a white woman in Mississippi and paid for it with his life; or to Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney, who became martyrs of the civil rights movement, also in Mississippi.

Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them? Why then the description of the SANE trainee's report? If it was a mistake, did they get in trouble for it? Do you have a source that says they can't talk about them?

I think that the argument for inclusion will be along the lines of "in the course of proper case investigation, as we tried only to determine who was at the party (ergo, no need for 'proper' lineups, as we weren't determining criminal activity). The AV then organically identified her attackers."

And she was wearing a "red nightgown" when she arrived?

"She asked my opinion," he said. "The first one was this black outfit, and I said, 'No.' When she came out in the red one I said, 'That's better.'

She's wearing only her scant red-and-white outfit and one shoe.

And yes I think this case will make it less likely for rape victims to come forward.

In some weird way, I'm sure it'll be parallelled to a detective walking w/a victim through a crowd, trying to re-create her steps and she spontaneously says "look at the man over there, he raped me!"

You don't go to the press stating that an alleged victim's story is consistent with her injuries if you have good information that in this highly publicized case there were no injuries to speak of.

That would be misleading and unprofessional.

Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them?

The filing by defense lawyers on Thursday also quoted details from the medical examination of the woman by doctors and a sexual assault specialist. Twenty-three pages of medical records were attached in a sealed envelope.

The paid sex is of course speculation.

Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience? Can you concede it was possible?

Short of the denials by the defense, the hedging and changing of Kim's story, the negotiations that occurred at the car window, the AV's story, and Bissey's observations that no one was left out after the first time they went to the car (so they both returned to the house), do tend to support such an event.

As far as the misunderstandings, that makes a lot more sense to me than wildly different versions. That makes no sense, rape or invented rape.

So yeah, I think a lot of things. And I was up front about the "facts" I questioned.

Sorry, imho, but I'm not giving an "eyewitness" a whole lot of points for getting one out of two colors right. Maybe "nightgown" must be given unusual definition to make it fit what the AV was wearing, just as "mustache" needs creative definition to make it describe anything close to what Evans looked like that night.

Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them? Why then the description of the SANE trainee's report? If it was a mistake, did they get in trouble for it? Do you have a source that says they can't talk about them?

I think they are not sure. There are laws dealing with this. They asked the court for permission to do so. It would be difficult to do so now without the court's persmission.

THE MOTION TO RELEASE THE MEDICAL FILE BY THE N&O WAS DENIED. I assume the motion by the defense was denied as well. The defense wants the medical report out. Please look it up. It really is ridiculous that the defense would quote from the medical report in their motion papers but not file the motion under seal if they felt the need to file the medical report under seal. That makes no sense, but that is what they did.

Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience?

Tell that to imho, she doesn't think sex happens at one on ones at 5:30 am in hotel rooms. Just games of chance and intellectual conversation.

They have released them - to a REPORTER!

Do you think Dan Abrams is lying?

They can release it to the N & O also. They are choosing not to. Why?

They did not release the medical report to Abram's. They let him read it. Probably wasn't a good idea if they have a pending motion to release the medical report because they are worried about violating some privacy law. I agree with you that this whole thing has been badly mishandled by the defense. They could and should allow the N&O to review the file if they let Abram's do it.

They could and should allow the N&O to review the file if they let Abram's do it.

Who knows. Who cares. Another IMHO diversionary question. The answer doesn't change the facts of the case. Maybe they wanted national coverage. Maybe they wanted to be on TV. Maybe they like Abrams. Maybe they didn't want to deal with a rinky-dink local paper with low quality reporting.

We have analyzed genetic data for 326 microsatellite markers that were typed uniformly in a large multiethnic population-based sample of individuals as part of a study of the genetics of hypertension (Family Blood Pressure Program). Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity--as opposed to current residence--is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed.

Maybe they know they could count on Dan.

Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience?

Pass the popcorn and the D.S.Kool-Aid to wash it down.

Yep. Just an investigation tool - indentify witnesses to be questioned.

and Lora would realize that Nifong, Himan and the ESPN source were all making stuff up.

And yes I think this case will make it less likely for rape victims to come forward.

Right: "indentify witnesses to be questioned," and then never try to question them.

The standard used in the U.S. is the 13 core loci system. There are 2 alleles for each of the 13 markers.

I know it's a small matter, but imho, I was not disagreeing with the color of the garment. Do you call what the AV had on as a "nightgown"? That was my point, as you surely realized.

Sorry, imho, but I'm not giving an "eyewitness" a whole lot of points for getting one out of two colors right. Maybe "nightgown" must be given unusual definition to make it fit what the AV was wearing, just as "mustache" needs creative definition to make it describe anything close to what Evans looked like that night.

The source says the woman entered the hospital well after midnight March 13 wearing a red nightgown and nothing on her feet.

The idiomatic expression "drinking the Kool-Aid" was originally a reference to the Merry Pranksters, a group of people associated with novelist Ken Kesey who in the early 1960's traveled around the United States and held events called "Acid Tests", where LSD-laced Kool-Aid was passed out to the public (LSD was legal at that time). Those who "drank the Kool-Aid" passed the "Acid Test." "Drinking the Kool-Aid" in that context meant accepting the LSD drug culture, and the Pranksters' "turned on" point of view.

When I see all of the evidence, regardless of the verdict, if there ever is one, I would be glad to publically annouce that I think the players are innocent if that is what I decide, though since I have never stated otherwise, it would neither be a change of mind nor an admission.

I'm sorry, I just do not see how what the AV had on that night could be called a "nightgown." Small matter, I know, so I'll let it go.

The standard used in the U.S. is the 13 core loci system. There are 2 alleles for each of the 13 markers.

I estimate the probability of the three accused players raping the AV at 0 percent. I do think that one can reach a definitive yes or no answer in certain situations, and this is one of them. For example, and you would agree with this I think, that one could arrive at a zero percent probability of an accused person commiting a murder if the accused person was in jail on the day the person was murdered. I don't buy the argument that no one knows because they weren't there, as offered by that luminary Andrew Cohen in a recent article.

There are federal rules of procedure in this country--which, believe it or not, even apply in North Carolina--that deem it improper for police to question targets of an investigation they know to be represented by counsel outside the presence of counsel. That's what occurred here.

Actually the link you gave newport indicates there are at least 7 alleles for each marker. With 2 there would only be 2**13=8192 possibilities.

Interesting. I did not believe this to be true, can you provide a source?

Where would the FA get the red night gown? Is this standard issue at Duke hospital? She showed up in her dancing outfit and there was no mention of any red nightgown.

The source was making stuff up just like you do imho. Where would the FA get the red night gown?

The woman was working for an escort service to pay for college. When she arrived at the party about 11:30 p.m., she was wearing a negligee and shiny white strappy high heels. She and a second dancer, Kim Roberts, entered the house by the back door.

Is there any reason to think they left her in her red [whatever you call what she performed in]? One would think she would be put in a hospital gown, unless there is some investigative procedure I am missing.

I do remember the defense lawyers raising some stink about the police questioning players in the dorm when the police knew the players were represented. As far as I know there is nothing at all wrong with that and I was surprised that competent defense lawyers would make such comments. I note that they quickly dropped the matter.

Just a mini-rant by me: I hear or see that phrase and I get a mental image of that compound filled with the bloated bodies of men, women, and children, all of whom "drank the Kool Aid."

Rule 4.2(a) of North Carolina's rules of professional conduct prohibit a lawyer from communicating about the subject of the representation with a person the lawyer knows to be represented by another lawyer (unless the other lawyer consents to the communication, or it is authorized by law).

I have much happier memories of drinking Kool-aid... She'd say, "Drink up, it's good for you!"

So THAT's what you meant.....

So I'm afraid that Nifong isn't going to be able to use this as an excuse to claim that the photo ID that was just an "investigative technique," since any judge would ask him why he didn't follow the rules and contact the players' lawyers.

khartoum, you said, responding to imho's once again talking about the cancelled group interview, in part:

imho: I couldn't get the link you last gave to work, but is it an article about the team cancelling the group interview? If so, then I don't think it is on point. IF the "lineup" was only to identify witnesses, and to rule out those who the AV said weren't there, then why did not Nifong contact, individually, the players she said were there? Other than the initial cancellation of the group grope, do you have any knowledge or information to indicate that Nifong contacted any of the players, contacted any of their attorneys to set up interviews, after that? And, if he did not, do you have any suggestions, any plausible explanation, as to what his reasons for that would be?

By Michael Biesecker and Benjamin Niolet, Staff Writers Durham - Durham police visited Duke lacrosse players on campus, a move that on Friday drew fire from defense lawyers who said investigators tried to grill the players without their attorneys present.

The university confirmed that on Thursday night, two detectives visited Edens Residence Hall, where several lacrosse players live, as part of their criminal investigation into rape allegations stemming from a March 13 team party.

No search warrants were executed, the university said in a statement, and the officers stayed about an hour and 15 minutes.

James Butch Williams, who represents one of the team captains, said the players declined to speak without lawyers present.

Police went over there to try to do some interviews, to try to determine who was at the party and who wasn't Williams said. They didn�t do it right. They didn't go through the attorneys.

she remembered being present that night.

It's not about the joke, Sharon. It's cib's "cute and funny" cover up. cib's always saying those "cute and funny" things about imho. hahaha.

Kinda funny that cib claimed her jab at parents who tend to their children was an effort to "humanize" imho. hahaha.

Second of all, the police are not the agents of Nifong, they are an independent agency with their own chief.

If, in fact, the police were acting under Mr. Nifong's direction, then they most certainly were his agents, and Mr. Nifong is responsible for the ethical violation if he instructed them to interview team members whom he knew were represented by counsel in this matter. It is not a close call.

You don't go to the press stating that an alleged victim's story is consistent with her injuries if you have good information...there were no injuries to speak of...That would be misleading and unprofessional...

I think they are not sure. There are laws dealing with this. They asked the court for permission to do so. It would be difficult to do so now without the court's persmission.

Ever been around a person under the influence of something? Or just someone who lies?

Lora, I provided a source for you but you don't like to listen to things that you don't want to here and you keep at it after things have been explained.

Since this case is generally seen as a hoax I don't see why it would necessarily discourage actual rape victims from coming forward.

Someone here, please, even if it takes playing devil's advocate (or anti-Blue Devils' Advocate), give me one plausible, prosecutorial ploy that would explain Le Fong's unwillingness to meet with the attorneys for the various lax players.

Here we go again. That "the accused" phrase. No one they spoked to had been formally charged. No violation.

The dorm scene was not a custodial interview unless the police backed them into a room and so intimidated the players that they felt they couldn't escape.

I don't watch O'Reilly that much, but I don't care who uses that term, I find it offensive.

I was referring to the head nurse of the SANE program.

I think they are not sure. There are laws dealing with this. They asked the court for permission to do so. It would be difficult to do so now without the court's persmission. Lora wrote "How convenient."

Any good liar or anyone attempting to be a good liar would pick one believable story and stick to it.

Legitimate rape victims experience the same discrediting and smearing that the AV has experienced in this case.

Sharon, what would have been the good of Nifong looking at stuff he wasn't allowed to examine and verify? Just take their word for it that it's good? Give me one good reason the defense lawyers didn't copy the evidence they had and hand-deliver it to Nifong's office in plenty of time for him to consider it, THEN request a meeting?

Newport asked: How many different alleles are there for any given gene? How many genes on a chromosome are genotyped for the purposes of DNA testing in a criminal case? The standard used in the U.S. is the 13 core loci system. There are 2 alleles for each of the 13 markers.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was not talking about Nifong this time, I was referring to the head nurse of the SANE program. Folks disagree about who she's referring to, but whoever she's referring to, if she knows she has a hot case with next to no injuries, she's not going to make comments about blunt force trauma and someone's injuries being consistent with the story she told. She's going to chill on the blunt force stuff, describe the procedure, and just make her disclaimer that a SANE nurse can't make a judgment about whether or not a rape occured. Period. She's certainly not going to imply that some unidentified alleged victim has injuries consistent with her story, if the AV she DOES has information on doesn't have any injuries that even come close to matching her story.

She's certainly not going to imply that some unidentified alleged victim has injuries consistent with her story, if the AV she DOES has information on doesn't have any injuries that even come close to matching her story.

Excellent article on the innocent man arrested on the basis of a 6 loci "match." Now, I understand the U.S. uses 13 loci tests. Where are these 13 loci? Are the loci simply randomly chosen points in the DNA molecule? So the 13 loci could be 13 random genes located on some random sampling of the 23 chromosomes?

I disagree re O'Reilly as I find him to be extremely fair although not quite conservative enough for me. To each his own.

Maybe someone who was tripping would come up with all those stories. Any good liar or anyone attempting to be a good liar would pick one believable story and stick to it.

You've got nothing on which to base a belief that there was a rape. Just your belief, which you won't admit to.

It's not about the joke, Sharon. It's cib's "cute and funny" cover up. cib's always saying those "cute and funny" things about imho. hahaha.

But I'll be dammned if I can find one other time that I've ever made a remark about you and asked you to consider it made in jest. Care to enlighten me as to when this alleged other time might be? Or is this just another smear?

. . . for all intents and purposes, we know what's in those 1800 pages, . . .

and it isn't damning evidence. if it were, it would've been leaked already.

As to whether he can win the trial, I would doubt it. I would find it an inexcuseable ending, however, if he dropped charges on that basis.

The legal question, a matter of constitutional law, is whether the identification procedure used was so unduly suggestive as to lead to unreliable results.

There may be cases with more tainted id procedures but this one ranks right up there. The failure to use fillers in violation of the DPD's own internal guidelines (should have been 5 fillers per suspect arranged in a book, i.e., 46 pages of 6 photo's each)

Multiple lineups using the same photo's is also problematic and evidence of a constitutionally infirm procedure.

Suggestive comments during the id procedure another problem. Telling the FA that all the photo's were LAX players allowed her to make any pick she liked without having the possibility of a wrong answer.

Her credibility was not tested by the procedures used.

This creates an unreliable procedure that promotes misidentification.

re the artificial nails: many of them come already "painted" so the AV could have unstuck a few, replaced a few, whatever. This would not have left smears on the railing, I don't think, but would explain the ones found in the trash.

Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong.

Does anyone know whether there has been clarification on whether the fingernails were the cheap, plastic, do-it-yourself, press-on kind or the salon acrylic kind?

Both insults missed their mark. As someone commented, if I had a husband he would have runaway screaming by now, I would imagine as soon as any children of mine could walk they'd quickly run too, even the cat risked death by coyote to get away from imho. Alas, I have no one to call in for a refreshing glass of Kool-Aid. hahaha.

There were two cameras, according to some articles. I didn't make that up.

I dont know which pictures came from which camera; that I speculated about. I didn't make up that the defense experts couldn't vouch for the times, either. I read that, too. I'll hunt for the links if/when I get time.

All I can say is, if it were my a** on the line, and I had evidence I thought would exonerate me, I wouldn't care how the DA got it, I'd make sure he got it (copies of it at least). I wouldn't play games of "he doesn't want to meet with me so I can't show him my evidence." I'd get it to him. THEN if he refused to meet with me I'd raise bloody h*ll.

I'll admit to my belief. I believe a rape could have occurred. I also believe it could not have occurred My second belief is currently stronger than my first... As to whether he can win the trial, I would doubt it. I would find it an inexcuseable ending, however, if he dropped charges on that basis.

I'll admit to my belief. I believe a rape could have occurred. I also believe it could not have occurred My second belief is currently stronger than my first...

As to whether he can win the trial, I would doubt it. I would find it an inexcuseable ending, however, if he dropped charges on that basis.

it shouldn't have any such effect. so far, the person who's really being villified is nifong. the AV hasn't been, except in the abstract. most people don't even know her name. pity the accused can't say the same.

Using only Lacrosse players probably made it MORE difficult for the Accuser to choose the correct assailants, since she could easily be confused by so many FAMILIAR faces, especially if she was impaired at the time of the alleged assault.

There may be cases with more tainted id procedures but this one ranks right up there. The failure to use fillers in violation of the DPD's own internal guidelines (should have been 5 fillers per suspect arranged in a book, i.e., 46 pages of 6 photo's each)

She didn't claim to be raped by 46 men, thus there were not 46 suspects.

Suggestive comments during the id procedure another problem. Telling the FA that all the photo's were LAX players allowed her to make any pick she liked without having the possibility of a wrong answer.

If there were 46 photos and only 3 perpetrators, she had 43 chances to get the wrong answer.

Misidentification would work IN FAVOR of the Defense.

If they're innocent, the Defense would be nuts to have the lineup thrown out if there is irrefutable evidence that the three she picked were NOT there

Actually, I do feel sorry for you. Supposedly none of the comments on here means anything to you, and nothing has hurt you in the slightest, but I think this paragraph puts paid to that.

Many of those demanding that the ACCUSED be considered innocent until proven guilty are perfectly willing to proclaim that the ACCUSER is guilty of lying WITHOUT the SAME benefit of PROOF.

If it's not okay to do it to the accused, it's not okay to do it to the accuser, either.

except, it won't. they only used pics of those at the party,

she wasn't walking through a crime scene, she was trying to pick out her alleged attackers. this would be the only legitimate reason to have her review them in the first place, since the police already pretty much knew who was at the party.

they had no need of her to try and confirm it.

I'll ignore "evidence" that it could have happened because the AV "says occurred." But on what statement is PB relying for Roberts' support, Roberts' support being that she "does not deny that it could have occurred"? Certainly not when she called the possibility of the rape "a crock."

Mr Precedent and IMHO, what yout two don't seem to realize is that the there is a burden of prrof on the accuser, not the accused. THEY don't have to prove she lied, she (and the DA) have to prove the rape happened. It's not a two way street.

he idea that "most" of you already have enough evidence to believe she is lying is not enough to declare her a false accuser and wouldn't be even if you were sitting on her jury.

Proper procedure has to be followed and if the judge feels it wasn't in this case, the identifications will not be allowed.

Misidentification would work IN FAVOR of the Defense. If they're innocent, the Defense would be nuts to have the lineup thrown out if there is irrefutable evidence that the three she picked were NOT there or NOT involved. Their obsession with questioning the police department's methods INSTEAD of the accuracy of the Accuser's CHOICES is very interesting, IMO.

According to the identification report, the accuser picked the two players from a photo lineup on April 4, three weeks after the incident. WRAL has learned police only used mugshot pictures of the 46 players for the lineup. Attorney Mark Edwards, who is not involved with the case, said that procedure is like leading the witness. "I can't believe they didn't put in some other photos," said Edwards. "She's going to know that this is the group of people from which I'm to choose someone."

The idea that "most" of you already have enough evidence to believe she is lying is not enough to declare her a false accuser and wouldn't be even if you were sitting on her jury.

Please attempt to give me one good reason why he wouldn't even meet with the defense to hear what they had to say about alibis. Just one reason.

In this case, the accuser was shown the photos of 3 suspects and OVER 40 pictures of people who resemble them. 43>7

If the Prosecutor has irrefutable photos or videos of the Accuser being raped by the three suspects he really doesn't need to hear what they have to say about alibis.

Well, since *to repeat for the 3000th time* no gang rape occured she is a false accuser.

You've yet to come up with a scenerio to explain away the total lack of DNA evidence, and you've yet to even show you can be as brave as Lora and try for a timeline.

I have no doubt she's a false accuser, and I have almost no doubt that Nifong does not have even so much as a slice of evidence that might strengthen his case at all. What she has alleged is impossible, and it remains impossible even without seeing the rest of that 1800 pages of evidence you go on and on whining about. My bet is when it finally is released, and there is nothing in it, you won't admit to being wrong.

You, yourself, say you would bet for the accused and against the accuser at this point, but you nevertheless keep insisting that unless we are God or were there we can know nothing.

Here ya go IMHO: Let me know precisely what evidence has to be available before you will declare CGM to be a false accuser. Also, if the case is thrown out, is that good enough evidence for you?

If the Prosecutor has irrefutable photos or videos of the Accuser being raped by the three suspects he really doesn't need to hear what they have to say about alibis.

But imho, she hasn't been indicted for anything yet, so using your logic that excuses Le Fong's statements to the media, the AV is not an accused, not yet anyway.

There is no presumption, except in Le Fong's mind, of accusations being truthful, or accurate.

Then you have

/blockquote> no problem with the people outside the courthouse who referred to Seligmann as "rapist?"

Of course I do. They weren't waiting for evidence to come in. I did and it did. An alleged gang rape in muliple "ports" without condoms or sex toys does not occur without leaving traces of DNA among many other things. Once we got that info, we had all the information we needed to make a decision on this case - that is, unless you are saying the DNA results are wrong.

think it only fair that I see all of the evidence that is to be presented at trial before I attempt a scenario. Cute. So why are you even here? A trial won't occur- assuming one even takes place- until spring of 2007. You can thank that crony judge and former boss of Nifarts for this as well as blame him for not making it clear that the defense can release the information- thus putting the onus on them to do so. Right now the onus is on what is very possibly a corrupt judge.

Being wrong about what? Being wrong that I don't think it should be up to Dan Abrams to decide what is damaging to the defense and what is not? I didn't say there is evidence in the discovery that benefits the prosecution's case. I said WE DON'T KNOW. We don't.

And yet you've yet to reveal a good reason why DA might want to lie about the evidence he saw. Nor why we should trust IMHO's reading of the evidence more than DA.

As far as your ability to predict anything about me - you're batting zero. I pegged you, you did not peg me.

Pegging? Kinkkkkkkkkky. Oh IMHO, I didn't know. Perhaps if you are gentle... Seriously, you even got my sex wrong. Pegged me? I make a comment that brings a smile to my face and laughter to my heart and from that single isolated comment you claim to know a universal truth about me. Considering you misread the intent of the comment in the first place, I'm afraid Dear IMHO, that you haven't pegged me at all. As for pegging you? I don't care.

There are plenty of things about this case that we do know, why do you object to the notion that there are things we don't know?

I object to the idea that there exists an argument -with any dece

nt probablility of being correct factually- that suggests there are any IMPORTANT facts in this case we do not know. Important being defined as pointing towards guilt or innocense. The lack of DNA, as I've said, is probative.

I choose to not answer that question, on principle. If you want to reword it, I will.

There was actually two questions there, so perhaps you misunderstood something. Here: What evidence will it take for you to admit that the gang-rape accusation is false? And the second question: If the case is dismissed, will that be evidence enough?

There are no ethics violations and the indicted players have no civil case against him.

Then you have no problem with the people outside the courthouse who referred to Seligmann as "rapist?"

Newport, Sorry about the seance. Does acting "not smart" fool you?

IMHO, players not at the party would not be "known innocents."

"Known innocents" also called fillers or foils, are persons who resemble the description of the perpetrator given by the accuser but who are known to have no involvement in the incident.

For example, if she described her assailant as blond, blue eyed, mustached and about 20 years old, a "known innocent" would be someone not connected to the incident who is blond, blue eyed, mustached and about 20 years old.

The DA should have shown her at least eight photos, one by one, for each of the three suspects she described. For each of the suspects she described, only one would be of a duke player matching that description, while seven would be of known innocents who resembled her description of the perpetrator, not the Duke student.

The DA waited three weeks to show her a photo lineup. By that time, he had to have a pretty good idea which of the players were suspects according to her description

BTW, are you sure it only happened outside the courthouse? If it happened in the presence of the judge he should have ordered the bailiff to eject the shouters.

I like how Mr. P capitalizes a lot of words for emphasis.

And, imho, a couple things: (1) no one in their right mind would want to see me in a thong

(2) unless you are an ethics scholar, preferable based in NC, do not presume that you know what is and is not an ethics violation. Even if a bar ethics panel found no explicit violation, District Attorney Nifong (there, like me calling him that better?) could still face sanctions for what are to some, especially the attorneys here and in other outlets, violations of the spirit and intent of the ethics code for prosecutors.

How do you do that, imho? Please tell.

The experts I've seen are all full of bluster. They blink when asked what specific violations they think he'll actually be called on.

Those experts are dunderheads with a brain injury. The people on this board know much more about the facts of the case and the ethical and procedural rules of NC than any of the so-called experts to which you refer.

I predict he will face no sanctions for comments about unnamed individuals nor will he be judged liable for anything in civil court. The experts I've seen are all full of bluster. They blink when asked what specific violations they think he'll actually be called on.

Do you have any quotes from "experts" that make specific claims about Nifong's ethical violations?

Yeah, they're all over this board. Scroll back some and you will find them. Many have pointed out that your arguments based on your reading of certain ethical rules are not found persuasive.

The prosecutor likely believes that he cannot prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt at trial, but he believes the accuser with all his heart.

cib, what did you do!!! Cat on the keyboard maybe, this sometimes happens to me to cause problems when at home.

Of course I do. They weren't waiting for evidence to come in. I did and it did.

Cute. So why are you even here? A trial won't occur- assuming one even takes place- until spring of 2007.

And yet you've yet to reveal a good reason why DA might want to lie about the evidence he saw. Nor why we should trust IMHO's reading of the evidence more than DA.

I make a comment that brings a smile to my face and laughter to my heart and from that single isolated comment you claim to know a universal truth about me. Considering you misread the intent of the comment in the first place, I'm afraid Dear IMHO, that you haven't pegged me at all. As for pegging you? I don't care.

I object to the idea that there exists an argument -with any decent probablility of being correct factually- that suggests there are any IMPORTANT facts in this case we do not know. Important being defined as pointing towards guilt or innocense. The lack of DNA, as I've said, is probative.

What evidence will it take for you to admit that the gang-rape accusation is false?

And the second question: If the case is dismissed, will that be evidence enough?

Funny imho, hahaha. Do you have a figure on the number of men you have dated, if you have in fact dated any, who you have driven to insanity or worse?

I didn't realize one had to offer up scenarios or draw a conclusion to as guilt or innocence to comment here. Maybe Talk Left can straighten that out for us

I don't know what you are talking about. What evidence did he lie about?

Calm down, cib. I told you, I doubt anyone cares if you find their choices to be denigrating or not.

And what of the 500+ pages he hasn't judged not damaging to the defense? You object to the idea an argument exists that there is anything damaging to the defense in that part of the discovery?

important There's a very slight chance, I suppose that some evidence exists that all 3 of the players indicted were indeed, at one point -for any length of time from one minute to 20- alone in the bathroom with the false accuser. Such evidence could potentially blow one or more of the alibi's out of the water. So? Let me put it to you in a real simple manner since you sometimes either ARE obtuse, or play obtuse. I consider you playing obtuse more likely as you do seem rather intelligent. Anyway there are two evidentary hurdles that together make it more likely that the moon is made of green cheese than that a gang rape could have occured, and even separate and isolated still provide more than reasonable doubt: A. Least important: Time stamped photos, computer records, atm machine records, dorm swipe cards. In short, the alibi's. B. Most important: Lack of DNA ON her or IN her. ANY DNA except her "boyfriends". So even if you somehow get the three indicted into the bathroom with her and for a long enough period of time for something to have happened you still have to explain what I shall now and henceforth refer to as "The Impossible GangRape". Dang, wish I knew how to put that little trademark symbol in :) I'll be dammned if I can see how anything can be left that would explain this lack of physical evidence, esp after two rounds of discovery, and esp with what NoDong has claimed in open court.

I would like to see the reasons for dismissal. Lewis Cheek could get elected and just drop the case. He need not justify it with anyone.

Some commenters here are the accusers. They are accusing the woman who reported the rape of filing a false police report - a crime. They routinely referred to her as the FA [false accuser]. No one here refers to the players as "the three rapists."

You object to the idea that an argument exists that Dan Abrams may not be objective in what he thinks is important for us to know? Wow.

I wasn't aware, IMHO that all standards of evidence are the same. Apparently, their standard was that an accusation was made and that the alleged perps were white, male, and athletic. My standard, I'd say, is a bit higher.

imho has done her share off scrolling back and researching things others have asked for.

cib, Please tell me your cat wrote about the percentage of women you've dated that were crazy. Do you have a figure on the percentage of women you have dated that thought YOU were crazy?

And mine is a bit higher than yours, that's all.

cib, I know your comment wasn't directed at me, but I'm a SAHM to two preschoolers. I didn't take offense at your comments. I understand that I have more flexibility re: internet access than most who work outside the home. I often post at unusual times because that is my schedule. It also means I'm not here all day, every day. I have other (read: more important) responsibilities.

And, cib, re Nifong: don't forget, (and this is one of his worst violations, to me), that he basically denigrated and disparaged the players, called into question their innocence, because they wanted to have counsel present for any interviews. For a lay person to have the attitude that "if you are innocent, why do you need an attorney present?" is one thing, for one of the three supposed pillars of our criminal justice system to suggest such a thing is deplorabe.

cib - I don't know how to do the trade mark, but copyright is Alt+0169 (type in the numbers while holding down Alt). © See?

By the way baby, don't listen to that NewPort guy anymore. He's the past. I'm just so "crazy" about you.

By the way, you are one of the nicest posters here, and I often look forward to your posts. Speaking on a personal level.

You have not answered my question about the authority for your proposition that 'the accused' means 'the indicted'.

Your answer was always expected to be amusing. It is going to be even funnier now that you have used 'accusers' to mean something other than 'indictors'.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion July 5, 2006 05:48 PM cib posted: By the way, you are one of the nicest posters here, and I often look forward to your posts. Speaking on a personal level. Oh, stop all ready. You're embarrassing me. Newport was much more discreet.

Oh, Lora, no one has both women going back inside the house together, unless you count Bissey's statements to Rita in which he also said they arrived in a car together. But in his sworn affidavit, he only had the accuser entering the house.

Sexual abuse (sexual harrasment etc) Up to 50 percent false. Lots of real abuse goes on, conversely most of it isn't very serious.

...put out for Lora to consider and to balance some of the stuff she's rather uncritically accepting her in class...

Don't be jealous. I told you - you were the first.

By the way, you are one of the ... posters here

I told you imho was a guy! ;-)

Yes it is. Wild speculation.

But there is this, for what it's worth. Here is says that a piece of paper was found in Ryan McFadyen's vehicle that said, "SUCKIE SUCKIE $5.00."

According to your statement your current belief is that the AV is more likely to be the one guilty of the crime. Since you also believe that the trial should go forward even if the prosecutor believes he can not win the case, I would suggest that a consistent position should have you banging the drums for the AV's indictment.

And maybe you forget you posted that it was a same-sex marriage.

sexual injuries: 4,562 Physical injuries: 2,087 perp = father: 1,150 perp = mother: 1,143

Lord, next thing we know, you will have bewitched and mesmerized Bob in Pacifica.

Newport suspected I was married to Nifong. I then merely asked if same sex marriages were legal in N.C. You didn't think I was implying anything by that question, did you?

And I've been the victim of a false accusation myself (although it was only an accusation that I THREATENED to rape, and it only cost me a job that I wasn't planning on making a career of anyway) so I have some experience in the trenches from both sides of this issue.

Posted by inmyhumbleopinion July 5, 2006 07:07 PM SharonInJax posted: Lord, next thing we know, you will have bewitched and mesmerized Bob in Pacifica. I'll leave that to you, Sharon.

Someone told your prospective boss you threatened to rape her?

He [Nifong] is privy to knowledge from the police investigation that I am not.

PB posted:

He [Nifong] is privy to knowledge from the police investigation that I am not.

Perhaps you could share with us exactly what type of evidence this is. Are you suggesting that he hasn't turned over material to the defense?

But he can't use it either, unless he wants to take the stand

Ya know. Sniff. Breaks my heart to say it, but Bob really is your one and only true love, IMHO. No need to deny it anymore. I understand, darling. When he rejected you, your world fell apart. And I know that me and Newport together will never be in your heart one ten thousandth of what he was, and still is.

Meaning that he cannot use it in court, not that he cannot use it to prepare his case and know which avenues to avoid for example, right?

Meaning that he cannot use it in court, not that he cannot use it to prepare his case and know which avenues to avoid for example, right?

Does anybody know anything about the ex-husband (the one Precious taught to read and the one she accused of trying to kill her in the woods) and the current 38 year old sperm donor boyfriend, Murchison, rotting in a Durham jail as we speak?

If he had some investigative material in his notes that he wanted to use at trial he would have to waive the work product doctrine, produce the notes to the defense as part of normal discovery, and take the stand to testify himself.

Cultural anthropology? What the hell is that? What a joke. Try making a living at that.

Weezie, I am tearing up and throwing out some Duke solicitation that I got in the mail today right now as I speak.

Check out Johnsville's take on imho's buddy and perhaps alter ego "Orin Starn." The pathetic fool that she directed us to a few days ago.

OOPS! I meant Orinoco, not Newport! How did I ever confuse those two?

IF the "lineup" was only to identify witnesses,

and to rule out those who the AV said weren't there, then why did not Nifong contact, individually, the players she said were there?

I remember months ago speculating about prostitution at the party. In fact, I presumed that the defense would have that as a fallback position and wondered why they claimed from the start that no sex happened there that night.

Roberts sounded like she had had a long evening and wanted to get home and was stuck with trying to get rid of the drunk.

If they had consensual sex with her, maybe they didn't want to risk being charged with soliciting a prostitute

I was not questioning whether or not the ESPN "eyewitness" was there at DMC, nor that he/she saw the AV. I was looking at the accuracy of that one descriptive comment and applying to the credibility of the rest of the report.

Do you really think the reporter would substitute "nightgown" for any of the other options you gave?

Similarly to how one might look at an inaccurate statement on Officer Sutton's police report and wonder about the credibility of the rest of it?

I've been paraphrased by reporters several times, and I've also had articles I've written slightly reworded by an editor

Perhaps you could share with us exactly what type of evidence this is. Are you suggesting that he hasn't turned over material to the defense?

There are federal rules of procedure in this country--which, believe it or not, even apply in North Carolina--that deem it improper for police to question targets of an investigation they know to be represented by counsel outside the presence of counsel. That's what occurred here.

Quite so, and comment 6 of Rule 4.2(a) holds the following: "When communicating with the accused in a criminal matter,

Lest ye forget: Florida judge just had to throw out a confession by a child rapist/murderer because of that pesky right to counsel part of the constitution.

What if one of the guys they were talking to fell to his knees, overcome by guilt and shame, and confessed all?

They were interviewing him, in his home, without his counsel present, even though they knew he had retained counsel.

Now wait a minute, Lora. You don't think it's odd that Nifong refused to look at ANY information on alibis for these players? If you don't think it's odd, you are th eonly one. On every talk show even the DAs that still support Nifong think that was an odd move. They ALL say they take every opportunity possible to meet with defense lawyers and subjects when it is offered to them. Nifong's refusal to hear any alibi information is criminal and stupid in my book.

Nifong didn't say "Mail it me first and we'll meet next week." He simply refused to hear what they had to say.

For those interested, here is a fairly good discussion of what constitutes a custodial interrogation and what Constitutional rights of the accused are triggered in such a situation. Here.

They thought I'd given up posting as you.

"the prosecution may not use statements ... stemming from custodial interrogation of the defendant unless it demonstrates the use of procedural safeguards effective to secure the privilege against self-incrimination. By custodial interrogation, we mean questioning initiated by law enforcement officers after a person has been taken into custody or otherwise deprived of his freedom of action in any significant way. As for the procedural safeguards to be employed, unless other fully effective means are devised to inform accused persons of their right of silence and to assure a continuous opportunity to exercise it, the following measures are required. Prior to any questioning, the person must be warned that he has a right to remain silent, that any statement he does make may be used as evidence against him, and that he has a right to the presence of an attorney, either retained or appointed."

Some arguments are not worth discussing. Mr. P's take on the photo lineup is one of them.

when a senior female appeared on Oprah discussing her sex addiction.

Maybe you could learn a little about proper lineup procedures before wasting TL's bandwidth.

Mr P, or whoever you are behind your sock-puppetry:

I'd say that 2 out of the 3 men she chose from her roulette deck have strong alibis. Thus effectively blowing this case out of the water.

It's very hard to absolutely proove you weren't anywhere unless you happen to have receipts or some time-stamped photos.

Most people don't have receipts or time stamped photos for most parts of their days.

More to the point, a good defense lawyer doesn't just try one strategy.

The lawyers for 2 of the three that we know of are claiming their clients couldn't have been there during the time frame when a rape would have occured; this isn't made any easier by Nifong's refusal to provide the defense the prosecution's timeline.

By the way, did you forget that Reade S said "I'm glad they picked me", as he felt he had an airtight alibi? Those confident words aren't the words of a criminal.

Anyway, I suggest you get off your lazy trollish butt and google NC line up procedures so you'll know more about what you are talking about the next time you pull some bile out of your butt.

f) If there is more than one suspect that fits the description of the perpetrator, there can be more than one suspect in the lineup; however the number of fillers should be increased to a minimum of seven (or five for live lineups) per suspect. Whether to include one suspect and seven fillers per line-up, or to include more than one suspect and increase the number of fillers to keep the proportion of suspects to fillers constant at 1 to 7, is a discretionary decision. By keeping the proportion of fillers to suspects constant, the reliability of the identification remains constant.

Most accounts of the nails in this case describe them as the former. I've never seen anything that would indicate they were the latter.

How's that for suffering fools, January!

I returned my annual Duke pledge card

Both seem to have the same motive - to annoy and tweak others, rather than have a theory of the case. With no news, there isn't much that IMHO hasn't discussed. But Mr. P can reopen everything. Even come at it from a uneducated or different point of view. The tweaking can start anew.

Entirely superfluous, I know, but I'm scared for the players. And for the life of me, I cannot connect how, if the players are being falsely accused, a positive outcome proving their innocence should be seen as a threat to other legitimate rape victims.

Several posters have bemoaned how this case will cause other rape victims to hesitate to come forward but if there was no rape at the lax party, how could this deter women from demanding justice in the future?

How is another victim to know whether SHE might be the NEXT woman accused of lying?

tauroscatology

Would YOU want your, your daughter's, sister's, girlfriend's, wife's, or mother's assault and character detailed on every front page and discussed on the national news - or to have reporters camped outside your home demanding to know intimate details and family history - even if you/she was telling the truth? I wouldn't.

I returned my annual Duke pledge card with $0 and a note that I needed to see 88 very public apologies, as well as apologies from certain Administrators and groups for their apparent rush to judgment before I would send any cash. Instead, I sent the cash to the Duke lax defense fund (found at Friends of Duke University website).

Let's not get into this. TL's said that imho's identity is off topic.

How about some very public apologies from the three captains who hosted the party, and the fourth captain if he was involved, the broomstick jokester and the player who made "cotton shirt" remark?

The definition of "the accused" discussion is in relation to when the ethical guidelines were triggered. You are never going to find a definition that encompasses unnamed suspects.

On April 18, when the two players were arrested and charged with rape and kidnapping and more vaguely defined sexual offenses, Seligmann's lawyer, Kirk Osborn, went to Nifong's office to try to speak to him. "I thought, 'Surely he'll talk to me'," said Osborn, who has known Nifong for 25 years. But after Osborn had waited for 20 minutes, Nifong's assistant emerged with a message, according to Osborn: "Mr. Nifong says that he saw you on TV declaring your client totally innocent, so what is there to talk about?"

The only people the three captains (or is it 4) should be apologizing to for their terrible lapse in judgment in having a stipper party at their house and allowing themselves to be set up, are the three wrongly indicted and persecuted players. That would be a very private apology and I suspect it has happened many times. They owe no other agologies and they sure as hell don't owe the public an apology for a broomstick comment and a lame racist insult hurled in response to other racist insults. If you want people to start publically apologizing for that sort of stuff you need to see a proctologist to have some extractive work done.

It got worse. On April 10 Pressler's daughter flew back into Durham. She had grown up with the team -- "my boys," she called them -- and had an eight-year-old's certainty that the family would stay in Durham forever. Hadn't they just put an addition on their house? The grass hadn't even grown in yet.

Pressler told her, "Daddy's going to have to move on. I'm not going to coach your boys. But I promise you, your life won't be affected, you can go to all your camps in the summer." She asked if she could have a boat if they move near the water, a horse if they move out West. She asked about friends. "Your friends will always be your friends," Pressler told her. "We'll visit them, they'll visit you. But guess what? You're going to have another group of friends. So...."

Her lip began to quiver. He felt his eyes sting. Daddy spoke softly, trying hard not to crack.

Even after weeks of relentless media coverage of the Duke men's lacrosse scandal, the university has managed to enroll the most competitive class on record for the fall -- though the percentage of students who accepted Duke's offer dropped a bit, according to a status report on admissions.

On April 18, when the two players were arrested and charged with rape and kidnapping and more vaguely defined sexual offenses, Seligmann's lawyer, Kirk Osborn, went to Nifong's office to try to speak to him. "I thought, 'Surely he'll talk to me'," said Osborn, who has known Nifong for 25 years.

and the caliber of the incoming freshman class is not what it would have been.

The definition of "the accused" discussion is in relation to when the ethical guidelines were triggered. You are never going to find a definition that encompasses unnamed suspects.

The "Hey, b!tch thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt" will be associated with Duke University for a very long time.

Their actions that night hurt a lot more people than the three indicted players. The "Hey, b!tch thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt" will be associated with Duke University for a very long time. Its ugliness runs deep.

In 2001, when the Princeton Review ranked Duke as the least tolerant of gays, Franek said the university took action. That included distributing thousands of T-shirts with the slogan "Gay? Fine by Me." Even the university president wore one.

If that stupid cotton shirt comment is the worst thing ever said by a Duke student in an argument I can live with that.

His unjust firing was another true trajedy of this event.

Minimize it all you have to to live with it

There is nothing in the ethical rule that limits the definition of an "accused" person to be one that has actually been indicted. That is utter nonsense.

But I can't think of any group that's ever been punished more for one racially charged taunt.

There is nothing in the ethical rules that extends the accused to unnamed suspects.

Guttentag could not be reached for comment Wednesday, and Duke is still crunching the numbers. But in a memo to Duke Provost Peter Lange, Guttentag wrote that despite Duke's overall success in attracting top applicants, the lacrosse situation may have had some impact. So far, there is a 5 percent decrease in both white and black students accepting Duke's offer but no drop in the percentage of Hispanic or Asian students.

And so, this year, Duke will be taking about 125 more students from its waiting list of 900.

Exactly, now you are getting it. And it will not be for you or Nifong to figure this out. It will be up to the state bar which I presume does not include you.

No named suspects. That will make for a great civil case. hahaha.

imho: more concern for another person connected to Duke lacrosse, this time Sherwood and his family. Considering the positions you have taken, and your comments about Duke, I doubt they would appreciate your using them to promote your way of thinking in this case.

Newport posted: Exactly, now you are getting it. And it will not be for you or Nifong to figure this out. It will be up to the state bar which I presume does not include you. No named suspects. That will make for a great civil case. hahaha.

imho: it's unclear from your quote: is that 125 more than they usually take from their waiting list, or 125 in total?

The decline means Duke plans to enroll about 175 students from its waiting list of 900, up from 22 last year when the school was overenrolled, Guttentag said. He said Duke typically aims to enroll about 50 students from the waiting list.

A yield of 40 percent this year would match the mark set in 1997 as the lowest in the past 10 years, but would still be within a normal range that peaked at 44 percent in 2001, Guttentag said.

It is a fact that they now know what someone on that team thinks of African Americans.

You just don't get it, do you? The issue is whether Nifong slandered a readily identifiable group of people. The fact that there were no named suspects at the time of the slanderous statements does not answer this question. The entire team was under suspicion in the press, on wanted posters, and under the words of Nifong. Some members of a readily identifiable group were slandered and "accused" by the DA's statements before they were charged or arrested for anything

How about this? Maybe Nifong's son is on the waiting list, and he wanted to discourage the 125 ahead of him to go elsewhere. Or maybe his son is a lacrosse player who needs a scholarship.

WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Assuming Bissey heard the "grandpa" statement correctly, how do you know it was said by a LAX team player?

Also, why aren't you upset about the sexism of the statement?

No, dear, that is not so. But it is a fact that the Sherwoods now know what one person on the team thinks of African American strippers who ripped him off and challenged his manhood in a racial context.

she is a crazie Kool-aid drinker

IMHO, I hardly think 125 students will make that much of an impact on the school. Considering this whole scandal exploded while kids were making their decisions, I see that as a insignificant dent. Particularly with how slim the line often is between those accepted and those who end up on the wait list. The yield will be back to normal next year.

imho: The Sherwood's have already come out, loud and clear, in support of the team. And that was after the cotton shirt comment was known. Get off it.

After reading Sharon's post, I'm thinking Nifong positioned his son in front of 610 N. Buchanan and had him yell out the "Hey b!tch..." remark. The defense attorneys are not denying someone from the party said it, are they?

the player who made "cotton shirt" remark?

"Hey b!tch, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt."

We can talk about flawed admissions policies, including affirmative action, at a different time. Who, knows, maybe these will be better qualified candidates...

And in regards to Sherwood, was he at the party? Has that been established?

The point is that Nifong crossed an ethical line in his statements to the press during the first weeks of this case's notoriety. Essentially, he indicted and accused the entire white population of the lacrosse team during those early, career-enhancing, intoxicating days. The donkey was guilty, he said, and all that remained was to pin a tail on it.

I don't think anyone would be racially insulted by being called the African country of Niger, but they would probably be deeply confused. Bless your heart!

The point is that Nifong crossed an ethical line in his statements to the press during the first weeks of this case's notoriety.

what do you think this remark means?

So what becomes of you my love When they have finally stripped you of The handbags and the gladrags That your poor old Grandad had to sweat to buy you

Oh, IMHO, there's something endearing about how strongly you believe you are right about everything and how you refuse to give up. I pity those who live with you, but respect you for sticking to your guns. I also look forward to your admission of being wrong when this whole thing falls apart.

Guidelines not triggered. No violation.

Ergo, the "definition" of a "first tier" candidate changes from year to year. Therefore, any correlation of the academic achievements between students coming from last year's waiting list and this year's are comparing apples to oranges.

About 125 more students said "Thanks, but no thanks" than usual. That's 125 "first tier" candidates that were replaced by waiting list candidates. If that doesn't mean anything to as the quality of this year's yield, then the admissions process is flawed. At the time the article was written the resulting yield was expected to be a ten year low.

Let's leave it at that.

I can reasonably venture that there aren't too many total dumbells at Duke