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Wednesday Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:53:34 PM EST
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For once I agree with Josh Marshall, "[he ] needs help[.]" (Speaking for me only.)

This is an Open Thread.

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    Wednesday Open Thread | 159 comments (159 topical)

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    Because (5.00 / 8) (#2)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:03:02 PM EST
    the President always chooses his best bureaucrats for the SoS position...riiight.

    I look forward to reading Josh's "Team of Managers" when it hits the stores.

    No question though (5.00 / 10) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:05:15 PM EST
    that John Kerry has shown us how executive management is done.

    Look, I do not like having to think this, but it is becoming difficult to escape the conclusion that Josh Marshall is a sexist.

    Parent

    I came to that same conclusion (5.00 / 7) (#63)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:27:16 PM EST
    awhile ago... and it was an uncomfortable reality to face, especially because I had so appreciated his work on the US Attys scandal and on the Duke Cunningham episode.

    But these days he is also -- quite clearly -- caught in the throes of his own CDS.

    Parent

    Women (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:36:58 PM EST
    I have come to believe that CDS involves some degree of sexism. (And, frankly, there are other famous or infamous bloggers not at this locale who exhibit the same trait.) What I am particularly interested in at this juncture are the names--the names that people like Josh "put forth" "talk about" for the several top level positions.  It is always interesting to see whether those names include some high-powered females. Or not. Face it...there is a dearth so far.  The top positions are usually considered to be VP, State, AG, and Chief of Staff. Today, Treasury would be considered quite A-list as well. DOD and, in the West, Interior are high on the list too.  Obviously, Senator Clinton is exceptionally qualified for State in view of her background, experience, and international acceptance. If that is what she wants, I will be delighted for her and for all of us.  There are other women out there too--even Bush appointed a number to key Cabinet and Cabinet-level positions. My "count" for now: Chief of Staff, AG, HHS, OMB, Press Sec., in-house Counsel, 2 of 3 Deputy WH staff positio9ns, and probably NSA and DOD--all men.  I realize that we will get breakthrough and that its early....

    Parent
    Remind me - what were Rice's (none / 0) (#102)
    by Fabian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:35:23 PM EST
    qualifications again?  Besides undying devotion to George "The Dubya" Bush?

    And who voted to confirm her and pass her nomination out of committee?

    Sure, the Bush administration is no shining example, but I have to wonder if any of the talking/typing heads who are scrutinizing Clinton's qualifications so much as blinked when Colin Powell was booted and Condi Rice took his place.  

    Parent

    I understand your point, but... (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:54:17 PM EST
    it comes down, ultimately, to the numbers. There are all kinds of rationales. I am hopeful; but, the numbers will be immutable.

    Parent
    Colin Powell covered up the My Lai (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:00:48 PM EST
    massacre as a young officer, putting him on the fast track for promotion -- and for working for the White House.  Experience at coverups can be crucial!

    Parent
    I suppose you have some reliable source for this? (none / 0) (#145)
    by Don in Seattle on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 03:09:41 PM EST
    "Covered up the My Lai Massacre" is a pretty incendiary charge, one I would be unwilling to make unless I knew that Powell knew about My Lai at the very early time he was involved with the story.

    Obviously, even 40 years later, this is an awful story, and I'm completely unprepared to argue in Powell's defense. But the internet articles I have seen linking Powell to My Lai have struck me as highly tendentious.

    If you have what you consider a reliable source, I would invite you to link to it. Thanks in advance.

    Parent

    I take it back: I don't suppose any such thing. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 07:36:08 AM EST
    There are words for people who spread malicious stories about public figures, without offering to back them up. The nicest one I can think of offhand is "gossip-monger".

    Parent
    And the word for you is (none / 0) (#157)
    by Cream City on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    lazy, when all you had to do was google colin powell and my lai -- or even just search files here, where this has been discussed before.

    Instead, you prefer again and again to fling cyberpoo.  Clean up your own mess, fool.

    Parent

    I did Google 'Colin Powell' and 'My Lai', before I (none / 0) (#158)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 10:37:07 AM EST
    posted the first time. I'm aware of the charge; I was asking for a reliable source -- anything that might resemble evidence, or a fair evaluation of it.

    Your turn now: Look up "tendentious", please.

    (Potty-mouth.)

    Parent

    Are you kidding? (none / 0) (#149)
    by Spamlet on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 04:01:36 PM EST
    You really don't know about this? Maybe you should take it from a historian. That's what Cream City is, or maybe you didn't know that either.

    Parent
    That is a classic 'argument from authority.' (none / 0) (#151)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 12:14:39 PM EST
    Believe it or not, even historians are expected to refer to their sources when appropriate, or when challenged.

    Especially historians.

    No, I'm not kidding.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#153)
    by Spamlet on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 02:35:30 PM EST
    Point taken.

    Of course Donald from Hawaii could always do his own homework and find out what many other people have known for years about Colin Powell and My Lai.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#154)
    by Spamlet on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM EST
    Meant to say "Don in Seattle," i.e., you. No offense intended, Donald from Hawaii.

    Parent
    No problem. (none / 0) (#155)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 03:41:49 PM EST
    To make things more confusing, I recently moved to Minneapolis, where it is well below freezing today. Hawaii is sounding better and better.

    Parent
    Of course I have reliable sources (none / 0) (#156)
    by Cream City on Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 02:18:50 PM EST
    such as the Army report itself.  You could look it up, or you could just keep wasting cyberspace with your posing.  Pffft.

    Parent
    Ahem. 'The' Army report? (none / 0) (#159)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 10:54:47 AM EST
    Your use of the definite article implies that there is only one Army report, or only one on My Lai. I rather doubt that.

    Does there exist some Army report that reaches the conclusion that Colin Powell covered up the My Lai massacre?

    If so: Link, please?

    Parent

    Any other women that Josh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Fabian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    thinks are not up to whatever job?

    It's obvious he doesn't think Hillary is qualified for much, I'd just like to see other women given the same treatment before I apply the "sexist" label with superglue.

    Parent

    Here's my thinking (5.00 / 7) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:10:23 PM EST
    He gives Hillary the treatment that he does not to other candidates for State.

    My gawd, John Kerry a proven executive? That dolt Richardson?

    But it could be just CDS. I dunno.

    Parent

    Yeah, I'm trying to separate CDS (none / 0) (#34)
    by Fabian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:24:19 PM EST
    from a more generic sexism.

    Parent
    I have a memory of (5.00 / 9) (#46)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    a bit of a dust-up at TPM during the primary. A woman (can't remember her name) who had been posting on women voters and their issues was removed from TPM because Josh didn't think women and their issues were worth the space on his blog.

    I find it difficult where HRC is concerned to separate sexism from the CDS. I think it is the "secret" ingredient in much of the ugliness that gets throw at her. Goodness knows the attacks on her, low these many years ago, got their first big spark because Hillary was a working mother who didn't bake a lot of cookies.

    Parent

    Hmmmm, it has been proven (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:49:47 PM EST
    that that particular move isn't a good one in the blogosphere but hey.....knock thyself out Josh creating thine own little world.

    Parent
    Yup (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:51:59 PM EST
    you remember correctly - that whole thing is here.  

    I don't know if it's sexism or CDS here.  His suggestion is just too ludicrous.

    If you replaced all the CDS posts in the blogosphere with other content I am sure it would be a healthier more effective network of political activists.

    Parent

    Oh Ouchie Ouch Ouch (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:55:10 PM EST
    Worse spanking!

    Parent
    I just don't get it. (5.00 / 7) (#58)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:01:12 PM EST
    Why do people waste their time on the Clintons?  If you don't like them, leave them alone and focus on the issues you are concerned about.  Coming up with increasingly creative theories about the Clintons is a pathetic waste of time.  More than anything else it seems like an effort to meet the bottom line.  Which is really sad.  No integrity.  That's how you effect social change, yep.

    Parent
    As far as I can recall (5.00 / 6) (#65)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:30:03 PM EST
    He has only had one female on his staff since I started reading that blog three years ago. Very telling.

    Parent
    Maybe (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:17:03 PM EST
    it's severe Clinton Derangement magnified with great intensity by sexism.

    I haven't gone to his site since early last year and I won't be going back.

    Parent

    Yes, you are trying (none / 0) (#108)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:57:37 PM EST
    Now, turn that view around to look at it from all sides.  We've seen racism; now, take a look at sexism.  Sometimes, there are a lot of other reasons that we can latch onto. Yet--as I said above--the numbers will eventually tell the tale.

    Parent
    Doltish? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Rashomon66 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:27:49 PM EST
    Why is Richardson a dolt?

    Parent
    How about (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by robert72 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:44:44 PM EST
    loose cannon....

    Parent
    I like that better. (none / 0) (#76)
    by Fabian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:04:05 PM EST
    It's possible to be effing brilliant and just not know when to keep your mouth shut.

    I have no problem putting such people to work in place where they don't have a lot of contact with the public.  I do have a problem putting them in a position where contact with the public is a big part of the job.

    Parent

    he wanted to redistribute ... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Salo on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:52:01 PM EST
    ...the great lakes to New Mexico and Arizona.

    that's why. Dumbass is even better than dolt.

    Parent

    Imagine that! (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Salo on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:52:52 PM EST
    The Richardson Viaduct towering over the plains and the Colorado!

    Parent
    It would be an aqueduct, actually (none / 0) (#90)
    by cymro on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:56:57 PM EST


    Parent
    he's building (none / 0) (#96)
    by Salo on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    a viaduct not an aqueduct, that's his bag

    Parent
    Richardson may be a dolt, but he is a governor. (none / 0) (#147)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 07:49:01 AM EST
    Unlike Kerry (or Hillary Clinton), Richardson can claim elected experience in an executive role. Also, he's been a Cabinet member before.

    I'm not saying he's better than Hillary, but the executive experience factor is what it is.

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 08:00:26 AM EST
    Sarah Palin is a Governor too. George bush was a Governor.

    Parent
    Yes, I'm aware of that. (none / 0) (#152)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 12:24:02 PM EST
    BTD, you are the one who asked, rhetorically, whether Bill Richardson was a "proven executive". I'm just saying, for better or for worse, he is.

    If you think that is the wrong question, no one is forcing you to ask it.

    Parent

    Funny, I googled (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:10:32 PM EST
    'state department + management' and in at least the first 30 hits there was not one article on any previous SOS's management of the department. I get the idea the careerist int he department pretty much have that part handled.

    Josh does need help, and I hope he gets it.

    Parent

    I have no idea (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:12:36 PM EST
    But it is a pretty new concept on the SOS.

    Parent
    Sure is (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:16:32 PM EST
    I can see it now 'Sorry, Chief Foreign Officer X, I can't make that meeting next week - I have some personnel issues to deal with here.'

    Parent
    Today on Hardball (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by blogtopus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:03:26 PM EST
    One of the graphics was how many years since an SOS was elected president... 140 something, I forget. Somebody's hoping to keep that record unbroken, eh Chris?

    Parent
    Wow, I never saw that graphic (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:42:01 PM EST
    when they were all but begging Condi to run.

    Parent
    wow, it took me three reads to understand (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:03:33 PM EST
    what you meant BTD..

    maybe four.

    Be that as it may, I agree. I didn't sleep well last night, my excuse...

    That's good (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:04:15 PM EST
    I was trying for subtle.

    Parent
    It wasn't, but I laughed anyway (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by andgarden on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:17:52 PM EST


    Parent
    Ditto (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Trickster on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:06:41 PM EST
    Then I grinned.

    Parent
    Took me a good three (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:23:37 PM EST
    reads, also. I'm not sure "subtle" is the right word, though.

    Parent
    Hey Oculus, it isn't just Mr. MT (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:08:19 PM EST
    who wants his Powell back"

    33 percent of people polled thought Colin Powell would do the best work at his old job in State (28 percent  thought Hillary Clinton would be best). Rasmussen says that "none of the other possible candidates comes even close," including John McCain (17 percent), Al Gore (6 percent), and Richard Lugar (5 percent)

    Mr is on duty tonight, he is officially the big cheesehead of Fort Rucker at this moment because the really big cheesehead wanted to go home and and eventually go to bed at a humane hour.  I'm supposed to go have dinner with him and I hope his fatheadedness doesn't hear about how deep down Americana he is today but with my luck he will.  Did 33% of America really forget about Powell and his vial at the U.N.?  I know we gave Lieberman a pass but sheesh.

    Amazingly short memories. Or (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:20:06 PM EST
    perhaps the people who voted for Powell liked his position on invading Iraq?  Why not just keep C, Rice in place?

    Whatever happened to Wes Clark, anyway?

    Parent

    Hmmmm, Clark, good question (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:21:46 PM EST


    Parent
    I think he's still under the bus (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by nycstray on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:25:04 PM EST
    but could he emerge if Hillary says yes?

    Parent
    Hey, MT (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:21:36 PM EST
    How is Joshua doing? And how are you?

    Parent
    We are much better today (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:25:25 PM EST
    I have been exercising more than trying to organize something, seems to be what I needed.  After meeting with Joshua's teacher we decided to set his homework aside for awhile.  He comes home from school right now and plays and does little else.  Joshua had to take a spelling test today and he passed with flying colors, seemed to have studied yet I don't know when he did.  

    Parent
    Good the hear things have taken a bit (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:29:07 PM EST
    of an upturn. And how interesting that Joshua is apparently a secret studier.

    Parent
    Anyone but Hillary. (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Joelarama on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    If Hillary had one the nomination, would Marshall have supported Barr, or Nader, or Paul, or McCain?

    I ask because it sounds like Marshall believes Hillary's track record disqualifies her for any high-level executive branch appointment, much less a cabinet position.

    Clinton was only narrowly beaten... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Salo on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:44:25 PM EST
    ...because an entire black constituency left her, suddenly, amid media accusations she was racist. Another part was the media press gang attacking her senselessly for 16 odd years and GOP turcoats shifting to the Dem side in favour of Obama.

    That's actually a pretty remarkable coalition that was assembled to defeat her and an earthquake among AA voters.

    Parent

    Good question (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:11:32 PM EST


    Parent
    BTW Josh (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:17:05 PM EST
    Kerry lost to a complete dolt named GWB during an unpopular war with the "are you better now" numbers plummeting.

    Of course, if Kerry had been the pick, that wouldn't have mattered to Josh.

    BTW, why isn't Kerry the pick?  Is he a little too afraid of the vetting process?  Was his wife unwilling to "help" him the way Clinton's husband will "help" her with her candidacy for the position?

    My impression is that Kerry was falling (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Joelarama on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:20:13 PM EST
    all over himself to get the job, Richardson, too.

    Wouldn't Ms. Heinz Kerry would relish it especially?

    Seems to me Kerry simply was not Obama's first pick.

    Parent

    I think that (none / 0) (#104)
    by WS on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:38:23 PM EST
    botched Iraq joke hurt Kerry.  An SoS cannot screw up like that and offend people/nations even if he didn't mean it.  

    Parent
    Foreign Relations Chair (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:35:50 PM EST
    Much more suited to Kerry, and I think he's very happy with that, probably more happy once he thinks about it for a while. He'll be a terrific FR chair, wouldn't have made a good SoS, IMHO.

    Kerry doesn't have the "mavericky" streak that Feingold has, so Obama gets to have a good foreign policy team that won't suddenly up and fight him on some key point.

    Anybody hear anything from the Great Mentioners about National Security Adviser?  Holbrooke? Richard Clarke?

    Parent

    Isn't it possible, though (none / 0) (#73)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:52:19 PM EST
    that Kerry might give Clinton a hard time due to sour grapes???

    Parent
    Possibly (none / 0) (#80)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:28:30 PM EST
    but then Kerry gives everybody a hard time so he can look like a tough guy.  I doubt he'll make real trouble, though, because he won't want to piss off Obama and she'll be representing Obama's policy.  He can't excoriate her without excoriating Obama, so I expect he'd treat her Sternly -- because he's a big shot now -- but with basic respect.

    Parent
    a legend in his own (none / 0) (#150)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 04:10:02 PM EST
    mind

    Parent
    Holbrooke is wonderful too... (none / 0) (#93)
    by jedimom on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:09:02 PM EST
    I am sure we wil see Holbrooke someplace, he is wonderful, and if HRC were not in the running he would be my choice for SoS..but I think I understand what BTD meant about the drawing power of Obama and the media earlier this campaign season..

     I feel that way now about HRC as SoS, I think her stature will allow her to accomplish more perhaps than Holbrooke might have done in this role in this Administration..

    Parent

    I'm a huge Holbrooke fan (none / 0) (#123)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:17:01 PM EST
    and much as I love HRC, I'd rather see him as SoS.  He's got totally unparalleled diplomatic chops.  There are times when it's great to have a celebrity SoS, but there are other times when it would maybe be better to have someone much lower-key.  I actually imagine a lot of the less savory world leaders are breathing a great big sigh of relief that they won't have to deal with Holbrooke because he is tough, tough, tough to pull anything over on.

    I'm also a big Richard Clarke fan, and I sure hope he'll end up somewhere.


    Parent

    I thought... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Tony on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:19:17 PM EST
    Nate Silver has a good post today about the Lieberman situation.  What kills me about this entire exercise is how obvious it is that Obama called this shot, and you really have to go through some inexplicable contortions to get the blame at the feet of Harry Reid and not Obama.

    For those that want... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Tony on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:21:58 PM EST
    to place blame, that is.

    Parent
    Good for Nate (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:53:27 PM EST


    Parent
    I would like to see Josh as Minister of (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:20:17 PM EST
    Truth.

    Clinton has instant street-cred (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Exeter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:23:09 PM EST
    around the world. Clinton was the most popular president U.S. President since Kennedy. That's the bottom line and why Obama picked her and you can't say the same about any other SOS candidate.

    The sad thing about CDS (5.00 / 13) (#43)
    by TheRealFrank on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:33:06 PM EST
    It makes me question someone's ability to think independently in general, and seriously question their judgement on anything.

    Sure, during the primaries, things got heated, but if someone is still doing it, then I'm not interested in what they think about any other subject.

    Gallup polls Hillary as SoS (5.00 / 9) (#47)
    by TheRealFrank on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:38:25 PM EST
    link

    Favor 57%
    Oppose 30%
    No opinion 12%

    (adds up to 99% due to rounding).

    Nice to see that CDS is restricted to a fringe group of people. There was a poll in NY as well, and it basically showed that there's a small minority of Dems and less than half of Republicans who fall into that group. Which would add up to about 30%.

    Hey Josh, say hello to your friends on this issue: the same people who are saying that Bush is doing a good job.

    hehehehe. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Salo on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:47:07 PM EST


    Parent
    Ouch, spankings (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:51:10 PM EST


    Parent
    Finally... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by desertswine on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:50:20 PM EST
    some good news to report.

    "This is driving in its most natural form. You feel every bump, squeak and jolt, and one can enjoy the sweet smell of gasoline and exhaust fumes," he said. "No car can replace it."

    See, not all the economic news is bad.

    Another event for the new Jerry Jones Taj Mahal (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:52:06 PM EST
    in Arlington, TX. NCAA Final Four in 2014.  Get this. Stadium will be configured to seat 93,000 for the event. The cheap seats will undoubtedly be like watching a flea circus.  

    Just watched Bill Clinton (5.00 / 7) (#60)
    by NYShooter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:21:43 PM EST
    giving a speech for the Dem. in Georgia.

    The man's a National Treasure.

    And with all due respect to my childhood idol, Ali, Bill Clinton (The Big Dawg)....is "The Greatest!"  

    An incredible talent (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    that our media did all in it's power to destroy.

    Parent
    awesome, Jim Martin? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jedimom on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:11:24 PM EST
    Martin? oh awesome!! Ambinder had reported earlier it was cancelled, but then corrected to say it was gping thru..

    I so hope Martin gets that seat, send Chamblis, far, far away........

    Parent

    I liked this part: (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by rooge04 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:34:54 PM EST
    in Josh's post:
    This user has disabled comments on this entry.

    Too many heads would explode in the comments.

    My word...!! (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:14:03 PM EST
    My head was spinning, kept avoiding the post, did not like the idea of agreement with Josh, and then--bang.  The man is truly beyond contempt.  

    Gary Ackerman....priceless! (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by NYShooter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:22:49 PM EST
    "watching corporate ceo's flying into Washington D.C. in separate, luxury jets......holding tin cans in their hands."

    "It's like standing in line at a soup kitchen wearing a high hat and a tuxedo."

    yet drove up in a hybrid, HA! (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jedimom on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:12:53 PM EST
    oh the best was Mullaly, Ford CEO, alerted the media he would be pulling up in a Hybrid (and neglected to mention the private jet he flew in on) Waggoner's private flight cost 22,000....bad PR people, reallly bad

    Parent
    My opinion on this is simple (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by s5 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:37:41 PM EST
    I voted for Obama in the primary and again in the general election. Which means that I voted for Obama's judgment on how to best lead the country. If he looked at all the possibilities and decided that Hillary was his best choice, than I'm happy with his choice (if it indeed turns out to be Hillary).

    Nearly every person who Obama hires is smart, capable, and gets the job done. I'm guessing that's exactly what we'd get from Hillary.

    I've supported Clinton all along but never thought (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:53:27 PM EST
    of her for SOS until it got floated. If this is for real, I give Obama a lot of credit for considering her, and her a lot of credit for being considered.  The way I see it, she would be a risky choice for 'No Drama Obama' just because of the media frenzy and CDS she stirs up, so he must really think she is far and away the best person for the job.

    Parent
    Bwahahaha!!! (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by jen on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:56:14 PM EST
    Funniest thing I've read all day! :D

    She's too junior in the Senate to do much. (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:06:29 PM EST
    With reasonable support from Obama, she has a great chance to make a difference as SOS, in terms of negotiating with the rest of the world, which has mostly not been infected by the deadly & perseverative Clinton Derangement Syndrome.

    I bet Richardson, (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by ChrisO on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:55:40 PM EST
    Dodd, Biden, Edwards and McCain wish they had Hillary's "trainwreck" of a campaign. This BS never ceases to amaze me. Yes, Obama ran a nearly flawless campaign. But the leader in the polls the year before an election year rarely ends up with the nomination (see Gephardt, Richard; Giuliani, Rudy). So all of those guys flamed out, but the one who finished a closer second than anyone in history is a trainwreck? Obama lovers like to portray Hillary as if she was the incumbent. Like becoming the first woman President would have been no big deal. It was hers for the taking.

    All of that "inevitable" stuff was in play before the campaign actually began. When Obama managed to level the playing field, (I know, there was a lot more to it than that) it became a race, and he just nosed her out. Every little misstep in the campaign was blown out of proportion, and the fact that she kicked Obama's butt from about March 1 on has somehow faded into the mist.

    The way I see it, Obama's surprising success knocked Hillary's campaign off balance a bit, but they regrouped and got the job done, falling just short. Hardly a trainwreck.

    Although I will say that it's pretty hard to defend Mark Penn.

    The Lobbying Daschles (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by JoeCHI on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:02:04 PM EST
    It's no surprise that the old and new media are, once again, slamming the Clinton's. However,
    it stands in stark contrast to the silent treatment given Tom Daschle's HHS cabinet
    appointment.

    Daschle and his wife are both lobbyists, he for the healthcare industry, and she for
    aerospace. Considering that he will be taking over healthcare reform, one would think that his
    healthcare lobbying activities present a greater conflict of interest than President Clinton's
    work to raise money to fight AIDS in Africa, as well as the other philanthropic work of the
    CGI.

    Can someone explain (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:07:53 PM EST
    why an alcoholic, disheveled jerk, who looks like he needs bath, gets invited to show after show after show to air his personal vendetta against Hillary Clinton?

    Seriously why is our pundit world enamoured by Christopher Hitchens, a priggish dolt who comes off (to me) like someone most would be embarrassed to be seen with...
    honestly his nastiness on Larry King nauseated me.
    It's personal ....clearly.  WHY do they let him to that??

    Me, me, me.... (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by NYShooter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42:39 PM EST
    I've got the answer.

    He's a freak. Why do people watch those shows? They want, and expect a freak show.

    The first rule of business....give'm what they want.

    Parent

    No Surprise (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:14:23 AM EST
    The president-elect on Wednesday named his longtime friend, strategist and political poet to the role of senior adviser in his future administration.

    That elevates Axelrod to a status similar to Karl Rove in the George W. Bush administration, or political operative James Carville in Bill Clinton's White House.

    link

    "Political poet"? Does the author (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:17:32 AM EST
    mean political muse?  Guru?  

    Parent
    Wordsmith I Imagine (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:22:51 AM EST

    "I just want to help him be successful," Axelrod said Wednesday, between meetings with Obama in Chicago. "Part of that is making sure that we're communicating the right way with the American people."

    Axelrod, 53, said he expects to play a similar role as the one he had in the campaign, working with Obama, speechwriters and the White House communications team to "tell the American people our story."



    Parent
    Cyrano. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:27:59 AM EST


    Parent
    Now, now! (none / 0) (#139)
    by Landulph on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 01:10:43 AM EST


    Parent
    It's Personality... (2.00 / 0) (#1)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:01:23 PM EST
    People generally like Hillary Clinton.  She seems like a bright, smart, nice person.  She's a charismatic leader, but from all accounts, not a strong executive.

    To the extent that she "runs" State it will be a disaster.  But what I'd hope is that she hires an executive minded chief of staff (think Emanual-like) and she would be the charismatic diplomat, advisor, etc...

    You would NOT want Hillary as CEO of your company, but you'd want her on your board and as a spokesperson.  SoS seems like a fine position for her.  MUCH better than President.  Although I still contend that SCOTUS justice would be a better fit.

    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:03:43 PM EST
    I amazed at how many people know so much about Hillary Clinton.

    Let me ask you this - do you want Daschle being your CEO? Richardson? Kerry, for gawds sake?

    The CDS never ends.


    Parent

    Right now (5.00 / 13) (#11)
    by CST on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:09:53 PM EST
    I don't think I'd want a CEO as my CEO if you know what I mean.

    Parent
    Ding! (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:10:42 PM EST


    Parent
    I hear that CST... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:35:48 PM EST
    we should let the White House and Congressional custodial staffs run the country for the next four years.

    And I'm pretty damn close to being serious.

    Parent

    Great Movie Idea (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:37:02 PM EST


    Parent
    Someone should do that (none / 0) (#92)
    by blogtopus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:07:26 PM EST
    Ala Jack Ryan moving to the presidency when everyone over him died in a terrorist attack.

    In this case, all the politicians (and lobbyists, assistants, you get the idea, everyone DC was made for) are kidnapped by aliens (who are trying to 'cure' Earth's cancer by removing an important protein) and everyone else is left to take over.

    Good one for Mike Judge.

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:15:06 PM EST
    The Custodial staff realizes after overhearing a few WH meetings that the people running the country are morons and will only lead the US into a string disasters.

    They decide that it is their patriotic duty to hypnotize or drug all the US leaders, and run things themselves in order to undo the mess the country is in and save the world.  

    Parent

    CEO... (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:29:36 PM EST
    Well we actually have a pretty incredible CEO.  Regarding Daschle and Richardson... I don't know.  I know a lot less about them than I do Hillary (the difference with Hillary is I know people who actually have worked alongside her during her years in the White House and since, although I've never personally met her myself).

    It's weird here on TalkLeft though.  If I say Hillary can't play in the NBA I'd be crucified.  I wasn't knocking Hillary.  I was saying that certain types of jobs she would be less successful in (but other jobs she'd be great in).  For example, I think Obama would be a horrible Chief of Staff.  Does it mean that I hate Obama?   Does it mean that I'm racist?   Actually this site tends to be quite the opposite.  If I say Obama may not be a bumbling idiot in a job that means that I hate Hillary, and transitively, hate all things associated with Hillary.


    Parent

    Absurd (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:49:01 PM EST
    Stop the BS. you made a provocative (and imo, stupid) statement and people took you on. Now you act like a martyr.

    "You know people." Hell, so do I. I bet people a lot closer to her than you.

    But I would not pretend for a freaking moment to know if she will be a good "CEO." This is just the type of nonsense I abhor.

    Parent

    A martyr? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:12:36 PM EST
    LOL, you're joking right?  I'm just calling you folks out on your BS.  Give it a rest.  She's not God, although you do worship her.  I'm not the one with my nose sniffing her fecal matter.  I just call it how I see it.  I give her props where she deserves it, but when she effs up, I'm not blind to it.  

    Of course, continue to live in your fantasy land that anyone who criticizes Hillary in the slightest is sexist.  You do yourself a disservice to ignore the substance of arguments and always try to make it about an "ism".  Go ask Al Sharpton how well it works.

    Parent

    Hell even I knew people that worked with Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:18:11 PM EST
    ...and I'm a frickin' nobody. Just happen to work in DC. LOL. They always had lovely things to say about her. Then some of them became Obama supporters and suddenly they remembered that she wasn't as great as they had originally thought she was.

    Parent
    But can you have beer with her? (none / 0) (#94)
    by blogtopus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:09:12 PM EST
    The CEO question is the new Beer question... and just as dangerous.

    Parent
    Really (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:53:09 PM EST
    I know people who actually have worked alongside her

    More unnamed sources eh.

    Parent

    Judging by the SCOTUS (none / 0) (#105)
    by WS on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:48:07 PM EST
    push, he doesn't know Hillary at all. No, she is not interested in a Supreme Court position.  

    Parent
    So Obama is qualified as your CEO (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:14:20 PM EST
    because?

    Parent
    Didn't he say he's not a paper (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:15:49 PM EST
    pushing type of fellow?

    Parent
    Because... (none / 0) (#82)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:32:12 PM EST
    every indication thus far is that he is a very solid executive.  We'll see how he does in the biggest executive position of them all, but again from people who work with him (and from empirical evidence), he seems to have strong executive skills.  

    Parent
    So (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:56:04 PM EST
    from people who work with him

    you're also privy to people who've worked around Obama.

    Can you give us the lowdown on the Dali Lama?

    Parent

    Why is that so surprising? (none / 0) (#100)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:18:52 PM EST
    I don't know everyone that Obama knows, but it's not hard to know a few people that he crossed paths with, given I'm somewhat active Democrat.  I probably know (not all especially well) more than 20 people that have a decent relationship with Bill Clinton.  

    I suspect some of the moderators on this blog people know some of the people.

    Parent

    I know people connected to both "camps" (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:22:45 PM EST
    ...and one thing I can safely say is that the vast majority of them (lovely people though they may be) generally base a large part of their judgment about powerful people's "good qualities" on what's in it for them.

    Parent
    That's to be expected (none / 0) (#141)
    by Fabian on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 04:14:38 AM EST
    politics is the intersection of personal relationships with people and personal relationships with money.

    Parent
    If you are such an active Democrat, then (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by bslev22 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:40:28 PM EST
    why are you posting as Big Elephant?  Who are you and why are you here?  

    Josh's comment is ridiculous.  I have been following politics for more than 30 years.   I have never once in that time read any critique of a candidate for Secretary of State based on that person's executive and/or managerial skills.  It's a completely frivolous argument and, as a long-time contributor at TPM, I submit that Josh posits it in large measure because it draws either ire or approval and, in any event, hits.  

    There are one or two lefty websites that are not grounded in CDS.  You wouldn't appreciate that; as an elephant you tend to run with the herd, no?  An active Democrat?  Oh please.  If you want to tout your experience, you owe your readers more than that.  What is it that gives you this special knowledge of Clinton and/or Obama?  

    And, by the way, the notion that Hillary failed with healthcare reform in the 90s because of her managerial skills is a notion that disregards a history in which the insurance and other heavily financed special interest groups united against real liberals like HRC who were trying to do something for common folks.  Not so? Please.

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:40:27 PM EST
    I am so damned sick and tired of people claiming "Hillary screwed up health care."  That is not what happened.  Hillary was pushing something that few people really had foresight about.....

    Being a person with a chronic illness since my teen years, I have ALWAYS had to have regular visits with specialists, pharmaceuticals and yearly expensive tests.  Back then I was in my forties, the first of the boomers.  Most people I knew were clueless about health care because at that time they ONLY went to the doctor when sick (as opposed to preventative visit).  But because I had to go, I was seeing things going out of control in pricing and what doctors had to do to get tests approved.

    Hillary was there.  She saw what was coming and so did the b*stards of big insurance who had dollar signs in their sights...ripping off sick people.
    They crush Hillary and her democratic peers were too stupid to have her back.

    I am sick and tired of the creeps on the blogs who know nothing and trash Hillary just because they can......it's the cool middle school boy mentality.


    Parent

    Hilarious! (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
    According to Meyers-Briggs Clinton is a CEO personality, Obama is a Champion personality, and McCain is an Artisan personality.  It's a free country though so you can believe how or whatever you want for whatever reasons you want.

    Parent
    Funny. But I haven't seen (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:22:39 PM EST
    McCain's artistic side yet.

    Parent
    He's a singer (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by CST on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM EST
    "Bomb bomb Iran"

    :)

    Parent

    ArtiSAN, not artist (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by DFLer on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:35:46 PM EST
    craftsman
    a professional whose work is
    consistently of high quality
    craftsman, crafter
    a creator of great skill in the manual
    arts
    artisan, artificer, craftsman, journeyman
    a skilled worker who practices some
    trade or handicraft

    Parent
    You just wait until he starts dancing across (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:27:43 PM EST
    the aisle.  He's going to make McCain Feingold look like the two step :)

    Parent
    Ah. Sounds like all the Republicans (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM EST
    have facially adopted that attitude.

    Parent
    McCain is an artisan... (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:26:26 PM EST
    like the Pope is a Baptist

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#84)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:37:14 PM EST
    but from all accounts

    what accounts would those be?

    JMM, right-wing sadists and people suffering from CDS disease.

    Parent

    By all accounts... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by BigElephant on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:23:07 PM EST
    The problem is that any account I give you will "by definition" be from someone with CDS disease.  If you're happy discounting all reporting and media then that's fine.  That's your choice.  But don't expect everyone to be in your reality distortion field.  We don't think everyone in the world is out to get her.

    Parent
    No not everyone (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:42:13 PM EST
    but clearly the middle school mentality blogger boys love being able to really trash the "smart" girl.

    Parent
    Actually Twice In One Post (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    The header and the last line.

    New subject: calling for input (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    from present and past residents of Manhattan.  Say one decided to dream a litte, hope for change, etc., and investigate moving to Manhattan.  Requirements:  walking distance (say 1/2 hour-45 minutes mex and relatively safe to walk after concert ends) of Lincoln Center, some natural light, preferably air conditioned.  Rent?  Buy?  How much?  Thanks.

    Smart Idea (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:56:24 PM EST
    Best to wait a bit before buying, the prices should drop in the next six months. If you have the money anywhere near central park is super nice.

    Twenty blocks to a mile, 15-20 minutes to walk a mile. Lincoln Center 66th street. So pretty much W40th street to W96th street would do.  

    Here is a start, to buy to rent.

    Parent

    Thanks. The "sun-soaked" (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:01:10 PM EST
    factor is worth a couple thousand a month apparently.

    Parent
    In the winter time (none / 0) (#61)
    by nycstray on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:22:06 PM EST
    it's priceless  ;) My kitchen is sun soaked from mid-late morning until sunset. I can work at my stove and catch my sun at the same time. Or just pull up a chair, put my feet on the sill and sip some tea.

    Parent
    When are you moving west? (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:54:18 PM EST


    Parent
    Ideal time would be early May (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:57:14 AM EST
    but it depends on how business goes and all the prep I need to do. Darn near had a panic attack last night thinking about how fast time is flying! If I could just blink my eyes and be there, I would be in heaven.

    Parent
    Wonderful. (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 01:09:37 AM EST


    Parent
    Right now I'm paying $495 (none / 0) (#59)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:08:26 PM EST
    for a 1000 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment with high ceilings and a hardwood floor (that's a little pricey for my area). Where in Manhattan can I get a similar deal?

    Parent
    Manhattan? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by NYShooter on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:25:54 PM EST
    Nothing.

    But if you don't mind crossing the bay by ferry, there's a landfill on Staten Island.

    Parent

    Or you need to find a sublet (none / 0) (#67)
    by nycstray on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:31:51 PM EST
    from someone who has one of those real NY bargains  ;)  One stop across the east river here. rent just took a big jump to $581  ;) Going to be hard to give up when I move . . .

    Parent
    Craig's list has furnished sublets for (none / 0) (#136)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 01:08:30 AM EST
    Thanksgiving weekend even.

    Parent
    1000 SQ FT IN MANHATTAN? (none / 0) (#66)
    by rooge04 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:31:23 PM EST
    That's already been made into  4 bdrm.  You will find no such apt unless you're an investment banker. And they're not doing so good. A 500 sq ft apt on the Upper Upper West Side still costs you about $2400/mo.  1000 sq ft is either now a 4 bdrm split or a very very expensive 1 bdrm-think 4K/mo.

    Parent
    anywhere interesting? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Nasarius on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:40:24 PM EST
    I mean, I'm paying €539/month (plus maybe €100 for utilities) for a smallish 2-bedroom apt in central Berlin. At current exchange rates, that's about $800, divided by two = I'm paying $400/month and living with a cute German girl.

    And it's great. But there's nothing like living in Manhattan, if you're a city person. It's always felt like the capital of the world to me, and it's absolutely where I'd still be living if money were less of a factor. It's expensive, but it's worth it (for a couple million people at least).

    Parent

    Berlin would work, although (none / 0) (#138)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 01:10:39 AM EST
    my college German is really rusty.

    Parent
    1,000 Sq Ft / $495 in Manahattan? Easy. (none / 0) (#112)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:18:24 PM EST
    Check out this link -- a bunch of places in the $500 range.

    Parent
    Ah (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:21:30 PM EST
    There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home......

    Parent
    Funny.... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:26:00 PM EST
    ...cause I was thinking you can't even get 1000sq feet for $500 in Baltimore, let alone Manhattan.

    Parent
    Ooo. Manhattan real estate, my favorite! (none / 0) (#118)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:44:51 PM EST
    As an example, we have recently rented a newly-built out apartment in the "garden floor" (which means two steps down from grade) of our brownstone for $2,500.  It's a 1,000 sq foot, two bedroom apartment with "outdoor space" (a 200 sq foo patio) and washer/dryer and storage in the cellar.  However, we are in Harlem, about 4.5 miles from Lincoln Center.  That's about 30 minutes door-to-door using the subway, or $15 by cab.

    I should say that there's good public transportation in New York, safe, and it runs all night.  You don't have to limit yourself to walking distance from the neighborhood you want to be in.

    However, if you really want to be close to Lincoln Center, the area south and west of Columbus Circle  (down to 42nd Street) is probably your best bet for cheap.  It's very convenient to Lincoln Center and Broadway, there's a lot of old (read cheap) walk up housing there.  That area is generally referred to by real estate agents as "Midtown West".  Around 42nd Street it turns into Hell's Kitchen or (real estate speak) "Clinton".

    You might also look at the huge Trump development overlooking the Hudson, again nice walking distance to Lincoln Center and lots of free music happenings along the river, at least in the summer.  I checked this website, and some of the rentals look comparatively cheap -- even a one-bedroom for $2950.

    It is, frankly, not clear what's happening in the sales market right now in Manhattan.  For a long time the drops that we saw elsewhere in the country bypassed us completely.  However, with the meltdown in the financial industry I have the sense that we're at the beginning of a rather sharp downturn.  My guess is that if you were looking starting in, say, March of 2009, you might find some really good deals, especially on newly constructed condos.  We're expecting some really hard times.

    That said, I did a quick search in Midtown West and found some nice looking 1 bedrooms (about 700 square feet) in the $475,000 range.  And actually, there are some reasonable looking rentals under $2,500 in this area to (which sounds a little too good to be true).

    Try the Real Estate listings at the Times to get a sense of what's available.

    Parent

    Thanks. Of course, first I would (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:59:27 PM EST
    have to get top value for my CA abode--not likely anytime soon.  My daughter says check out NJ, but I don't want to leave the opera before Madame Butterfly offs herself, even though I know how it ends!

    Parent
    Not New Jersey. (none / 0) (#143)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 09:12:49 AM EST
    If you want to live the New York retiree lifestyle (and it's a great lifestyle if you can afford it, and don't want a back yard) you do need to be in New York to do it.

    Hard to give up the climate in California, though, wouldn't it be?

    Perhaps you want to check out homeexchange.com or similar sites.  I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't create a little exchange network yourself of people in New York who want to be in the Bay area for part of the year.

    Parent

    I'm thinking of a month or so (none / 0) (#144)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 11:38:18 AM EST
    sublet in summer or winter to see if a weather wimp from So CA really, really would like to live in NY year round.  (I have survived SE Iowa, Cincinnati, Norfolk, DC, and Ann Arbor)  No summer home on LI in my future.  Looking at the Craig's list info I conclude I'd better stay here.  After paying rent in Manhattan, I wouldn't be able to go to Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall and the theatre as much as I would want to.  May as well enjoy the sunshine here and visit as often as possible.  Aiming for March:  West Side Story, Rusalka at the Met, and Gergiev returns--this time with London Symphony Orch.  Home exchange is a possibility as I am near a UC campus.

    Parent
    Right now, I just don't care anymore about (none / 0) (#110)
    by steviez314 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:07:28 PM EST
    all this Sec of State, Sec of HHS, Sec of whatever.

    Obama MUST announce his Sec of Treasury soon (I vote for Sheila Bair, current FDIC head--she's the only one who seems to know what the heck is going on and actually has a plan to fix some things).

    I know Obama has said we only have one president at a time, but right now we have ZERO of them, and if Bush has checked out already, he should just get out of Dodge and let the grownups get to work.

    At this rate, the Dow will be zero by the Inauguration and we'll be losing whole industries.

    I hate to say this (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Fabian on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 04:10:45 AM EST
    ..but we need to retool our economy and infrastructure for a post fossil fuel economy and this could be an opportunity to get industries and businesses to dance to whatever tune the government wishes to play.

    A weak economy makes government influence all the stronger.

    Parent

    Well, I hate to say this... (none / 0) (#160)
    by Don in Seattle on Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 09:00:51 AM EST
    The idea of "getting industries and businesses to dance to whatever tune the government wishes to play" is a totalitarian's daydream. And wishing for a weak economy, so as to "make government influence all the stronger," is just nuts.

    Maybe, Fabian, you were merely being very dryly humorous, and I just missed the joke? I sincerely hope so.

    Parent

    Did anyone else see the little story (none / 0) (#116)
    by of1000Kings on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:38:04 PM EST
    on CNN about all the new democratic representatives being rounded up so that they could be cornered by some of the most influential, ugly, sneaky, Rovesque lobbyists....

    the debt relief charity ball for new representatives where lobbyists give 5, 10, 20K+ to representatives to help pay for the costs incurred by running...

    wow...that's all I can say...buying votes so blatantly...with so much ego...I now have to go out and buy a new tv after throwing up all over the one I was watching...

    the best part was one congressman responding to a question of why this takes place:  'do you have a better way'  is all he could say...

    uhmmm, for crying out loud ahole your the darn congressman, isn't that your job...but why would you want to change anything when your pants barely fit walking out of the building you had so many hands in your pocket...

    man our political system is in shambles...and all the persons involved look like Rove...no offense but I'm really starting to not like overweight, short, bald, old white guys w/ or w/o glasses (but especially with glasses)...heck, they probably don't like themselves much...probably why they take so much pleasure in ripping America a new one everyday...

    Wednesday Open Thread | 159 comments (159 topical)

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