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Clinton Campaign On MI And FL

From the Clinton Campaign, Clinton campaign manager Maggie Williams' letter to the Obama campaign manager David Plouffe on Michigan and Florida:

Clinton Campaign Calls for Michigan and Florida Voices to Be Heard

David Plouffe
P.O. Box 8102
Obama for America
Chicago, Illinois 60680

Dear David:

The 2008 primary campaign has been a spirited contest that has resulted in record voter turnout. Both of our candidates can proudly boast of bringing new people into the process and energizing our Democratic Party.

With the campaign now entering the final phase of the nominating contest, it is vital that both of our campaigns come together to ensure that the delegations from Florida and Michigan be seated to reflect the will of the voters.

More...

In Florida and Michigan, nearly 2.5 million Americans made their voices heard and participated in primary elections. We think the results of those primaries were fair and should be honored.

Over the last few weeks, there has been much discussion about how to ensure that the Florida and Michigan delegations are seated. We think there are two options: Either honor the results or hold new primary elections.

To that end, we are in active consultation with all of our supporters in Florida, including Members of Congress. In Michigan, we are in active consultation with the committee appointed by Governor Granholm.

We hope that your campaign will join us in our efforts to ensure that these votes are counted.

Sincerely,

Maggie Williams
Campaign Manager

(Emphasis supplied.) Since the existing results will NOT be honored, then a revote it is. Clinton says yes to a revote. And since that revote must be a mail in revote in Florida, Clinton says yes to a mail in revote in Florida. The ball is in Obama's court now.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Obama hass already passed "the ball" (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:56:34 AM EST
    to the DNC and has said they will respect the decision.

    Then a mail in primary it is (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:57:21 AM EST
    Good to know.

    thanks!

    Parent

    Florida democrats (none / 0) (#3)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:00:08 AM EST
    seem to be blocking that.

    Parent
    If only (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:05:22 AM EST
    the proposal came from Bush. Then they'd stop blocking it and bend over backwards to get it implemented. Sigh.

    Parent
    They can't block this (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:06:37 AM EST
    They actually have no official role at all in this.

    They do provide Obama excuses however.

    Parent

    excuses (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:07:31 AM EST
    bingo
    and cover

    Parent
    I'm glad (none / 0) (#22)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:12:59 AM EST
    they have no official role. Thanks for spelling that out.

    But as we've already seen from the comments of some Obama supporters here, their resistance will be used by Obama as a defence of his own resistance to a re-vote.

    Parent

    the question might be (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:14:54 AM EST
    do THEY know they have no official role.


    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#86)
    by 0 politico on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:49:38 AM EST
    might be asking a lot.

    Parent
    Florida Democratic Party (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:02:23 AM EST
    is submitting that proposal on Thursday.

    The Florida Congressional Dems have no veto power over this.

    Parent

    democrats (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:02:57 AM EST
    have really perfected the circular firing squad havent they?


    Parent
    What BTD says below (none / 0) (#152)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:51:59 PM EST
    about excuses for Obama.

    The Florida Congressional delegation consists of one Senator and all of Florida's House members.  Nelson is a Clinton backer so is not involved.

    Does anyone know who Florida's Reps support.

    My bet is that they're Obama people and they're acting as stalking horses.

    Parent

    Just read.... (none / 0) (#29)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:36 AM EST
    this diary at Kos.  A mail-in primary might be the best way to keep out the gamers, despite its other flaws.

    Parent
    For months, right wingers have been ... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:28:49 AM EST
    ...crossing party lines to vote against Clinton.  Obama's campaign spun the crossover's as Republicans who chose to vote for Obama because they liked his message (and would, presumably, support him in the fall) and Clinton's campaign didn't want to highlight the fact that some Republicans hated her so much they'd choose to vote against her rather than for their own candidate. Now, rather late in the game, the right has switched game plans, probably just to poke at the Democratic Party to make it squeal. The Obama campaign is now spinning that these Republicans, unlike the Republicans who voted for him in order to oppose Clinton, will not support the Democratic Party in the fall. And the big orange echo chamber is repeating the spin.

    Don't take it too seriously.  We can't outgame the Republican Party. It's like trying to con a con artist. All you end up doing it lowering yourself to their level. All we can do is to run our campaign as openly and honestly as possible, and recognize that no matter what we do the right will find a way to game the system. Then, when they do, we expose their lies and keep going.

    Parent

    I agree to a point (none / 0) (#53)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:31:34 AM EST
    but the numbers of Republican crossovers have swelled dramatically since McCain sealed the deal, and Clinton's Republican crossover support has correspondingly swelled.

    Parent
    We don't really know the numbers (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:41:11 AM EST
    In the states that had open primaries and report vote by party affiliation, there were fairly large "crossover" votes for Obama earlier in the game. In states without open primaries, the voters actually switched party temporarily in order to vote against Clinton, so the effect was not obvious. What is obvious is that 1) There weren't nearly as many right-wingers voting for Obama because they like his politics as he claimed and 2) right-wingers like to mess with Democrat's minds. It's not possible to know what is going on in Limbaugh or Rove's minds. It's only possible to know what they want you to know. I'm not going to buy spin from them either way - pro or anti Clinton or Obama. That way lies madness.

    Parent
    at any rate (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:45:36 AM EST
    it begs the question: why do we care what republicans think about our elections?  Why are we giving them any influence?

    Jeralyn had an excellent thread on the fallacy in the theory of republican crossover voter.  Look for it-it should assuage any fears you have.

    Parent

    Oh really? I have read nothing to (none / 0) (#127)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:11:47 AM EST
    support your claim that there is MORE Republican crossover recently.

    Parent
    I put a link in my first comment (none / 0) (#144)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:47 AM EST
    Percentages can be deceptive. (none / 0) (#145)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:09:54 PM EST
    The total number of voters in MI was small. Also, what about Independents? I do not want them voting in Dem. primaries either.

    Thanks for the link, though. I think it's hilarious that Republic crossover has not become something to frown upon, since Hillary benefits from it.

    Parent

    He needs to step up (none / 0) (#4)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:01:13 AM EST
    and say he SUPPORTS a specific workable solution. At this point that seems to mean a mail-in primary.

    Saying that he'll agree with whatever the DNC decides, while at the same time criticizing every proposal that's been made (except for the ridiculous 50/50 proposal) is a stalling tactic and nothing more.

    Obama and his supporters need to stop nitpicking their 'concerns' over every proposal offered and get actively involved in a solution. Whatever happened to the audacity of hope? Can we hold a workable primary in FL and MI and end this crisis? YES WE CAN!

    Parent

    bingo (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:03:43 AM EST
    Saying that he'll agree with whatever the DNC decides, while at the same time criticizing every proposal that's been made (except for the ridiculous 50/50 proposal) is a stalling tactic and nothing more.

    Reminds me of me of a familiar discussion every night in the Kathy home:

    I'm hungry.
    Me, too.
    Do you want Chinese?
    Nah, I don't feel like Chinese.
    What about Mexican?
    Nah, I don't feel like Mexican.
    How about Italian?
    Nah, I don't feel like Italian.
    Okay, well, what DO you want?
    I don't know.  Whatever you decide.

    Parent

    Aha. Reminds me of the unspoken (none / 0) (#20)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:11:32 AM EST
    but inevitable comment that comes later: Well, you were the one that wanted <fill in the blank>.

    Parent
    that would be my mother (none / 0) (#100)
    by zyx on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    Passive-aggressive.

    Parent
    It's myopia (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Lou Grinzo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:44:59 AM EST
    I can't believe how short-sighted the Obama camp and their supporters are being.

    First of all, they clearly don't want a FL primary, as Clinton would likely win, giving her not only delegates but the ability to say she'd won the popular vote in all four of the largest states.

    Second, saying anything but, "We demand that the people of FL and MI be given a full role in this primary process via a re-vote" looks astoundingly weak.  In fact, they should be fighting for this even harder than Clinton is, simply because it could hurt them, which then gives him the chance to look very statesmanlike by saying, "This isn't about who gets nominated, but preserving democracy in a country that's had far too many votes taken away from far too many citizens in recent years."


    Parent

    Lou-very good points (none / 0) (#82)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:47:52 AM EST
    Also, this is Obama's chance to show that he is a leader, that he can unite people and bring them together for a common cause.

    What is he doing?  Sitting on his hands, waiting for other folks to make the decision so he can disagree with it.

    Reminds me of his push the wrong button votes, where he gets to vote yes for an unpopular bill, but then goes on record saying he accidentally pressed it and doesn't really support it.  Yet, the vote goes in the yes column.

    Parent

    It's just more of the "Me, Too!" (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:59:14 AM EST
    we have been seeing and hearing for some time, and reinforces my feeling that he is not capable - at least not yet - of the kind of leadership this country needs.

    Now, the point could be made that when you're in a debate and your opponent keeps getting all the questions first, and your positions are not radically different, it might be hard to change up a response enough that it doesn't sound like "me, too," but there are other ways to show leadership.

    I think Obama has had numerous opportunities to do so and failed - and this re-voting business is just another example.

    Parent

    Exactly right (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:57:23 AM EST
    His main strength is suppsoed to be his ability to bring people together.  This is his won party. This is his first test. He can't manage this, even though it would be to his strong advantage to do so, and I'm supposed to believe he can get the Republicans to vote for a health care plan?

    Parent
    Own party, not Won party yet (none / 0) (#104)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:58:00 AM EST
    Dang - Freudian slip there.

    Parent
    ball is in Obama's court (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:01:53 AM EST
    why does that not make me feel better?

    There is purpose to this letter (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by ajain on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    I think the Obama camp will have to stop acting like it has no power or role in deciding what to do about Michigan and Florida. I think this letter is basically telling them to get publically involved in the process or deciding what to do about the votes.

    Sure (none / 0) (#23)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:14:05 AM EST
    the Obama campaign can simply respond "The most effective method for getting a revote done is a caucus.  This would allow the DNC to complete the revote without the need of state officials.  This is what we advocate."

    Parent
    nonstarter (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:17:18 AM EST
    Why? (none / 0) (#34)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:19:32 AM EST
    Because you don't like them?  Because they benefit Obama?

    Please explain the legal reasons why it is a non-starter.

    Parent

    they are undemocratic. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:21:01 AM EST
    we have had quite enough of that from states with experience with caucuses.


    Parent
    Whatever your opinions (none / 0) (#40)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    they are a common method of voting on a nominee.  The DNC has a mechanism to hold them.  They are the easiest to implement, of the available options.

    Will Hillary step up to a mic and say "caucuses are undemocratic"?

    Parent

    I hope she will (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:43 AM EST
    Done it. (none / 0) (#59)
    by ajain on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:35:53 AM EST
    Ed Rendell already said that on Meet the Press. He was speaking as a Clinton surrogate.

    Parent
    I do not think (none / 0) (#62)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    you want the national media talking about caucuses and investigating the delegate to voter ratio as well as the low turn-out rates.

    Not good for your candidate.

    Of course, neither is denying people the right to vote.  We'll just have to see how this plays out.  Great move by Clinton.  Someone else said it better than me a long while back: She is playing chess, he is playing checkers.

    Parent

    Maybe States with small populations (none / 0) (#72)
    by ding7777 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:42:29 AM EST
    which rules out Florida

    Parent
    Because they are impractical (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:41:31 AM EST
    indeed IMPOSSIBLE for Florida.

    In Michigan, the firehouse primary has been rejected by Obama.

    So a mail in primary is probably in the works there too.

    Parent

    When did Obama reject firehouse primaries... (none / 0) (#120)
    by tbetz on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:06:24 AM EST
    ... (aka Michigan Caucuses) in Michigan?  I'd like to read it.

    I saw some reference to the time restrictions in Granholm's specific proposal disenfranchising nine-to-five workers, but I saw no outright rejection.

    Parent

    Because Hillary has flat-out rejected caucuses. (none / 0) (#113)
    by tbetz on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:02:44 AM EST
    She won't permit them.

    Parent
    NO (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:10:59 AM EST
    The  state  of  Florida  has  rejected   a  caucus  because    they've  never  done it  before.   Forcing  Florida  to  do  something  that  accomodates   Obama's  style   rather  than their  own   historical  pattern  is  absurd.    

    Parent
    How many (none / 0) (#129)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:31 AM EST
    mail-in primaries have they done before?

    Parent
    Except it is not (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:40:41 AM EST
    even being proposed by anyone in Florida as they have never had them.

    The statement is a lie. Are you suggesting Obama is planning to lie?

    Parent

    I am starting to like (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    Maggie Williams a lot.

    I was already there (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:15:06 AM EST
    for Williams when I saw the difference between the Wisconsin (non)campaign, only a couple of days after the upheaval so still a Solis Doyle campaign of chaos . . . vs. the Williams campaign in Ohio and Texas.  The key is the difference in Clinton, letting the fighter in her come out again.

    I like a fighter for the Dems.  We need a fighter for the Dems.

    Parent

    I don't see any way (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by frankly0 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:05:12 AM EST
    Obama can resist the power of this argument.

    It's going to be very, very easy for the Clinton campaign to tar Obama with the charge of disenfranchising voters if he raises problems with a revote, or even simply stalls.

    The Clinton campaign clearly knows how to press the argument so that Obama has no room to wiggle here -- this letter is just the first step in that fight.

    I hope you are right (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:06:59 AM EST
    but I am less confident every day

    Parent
    I know how (none / 0) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:12:18 AM EST
    Media darlingship, and DNC darlingship.  I've come to the conclusion that the DNC would rather lose the election than get the candidate whom they don't want.

    Parent
    I was thinking the same thing (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:26:27 AM EST
    this morning.  I really do think the DNC would rahter go down in flames with Obama than nominate Clinton.

    I was listening to the Young Turks podcast from yesterday (yes, I torture myself that way to learn the latest anti-Clinton line) and Cenk was commenting, accurately, that if Bush invades Iran this year then Obama will have his hands ties as president.

    The fallacy in that is that if Bush invades Iran, McCain will be the next president, not Obama. The thought of Obama being elected during a still hot, fighting war really is a fairy tale.

    Parent

    Some people think (none / 0) (#56)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:59 AM EST
    the party will go down in flames if they nominate Clinton.  People don't like dreamkillers.

    Parent
    dreaming is fine (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:35:26 AM EST
    I prefer winning.

    Parent
    I prefer to have both (none / 0) (#97)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:55:15 AM EST
    I should have written more clearly (none / 0) (#90)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:52:54 AM EST
    You're probably right.  I should have distinguished between the DNC going down in flames with Obama - by which I mean Obama losing in November to McCain, and the party imploding by nominating Hillary in a way many would see as unfair.  (Because they have been told for the least 3 months that it is unfair to win with Superdelegates).

    I guess I am not very optimistic about a Dem win in November, am I?

    Parent

    And throw (none / 0) (#149)
    by Daryl24 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:13:54 PM EST
    his line about bringing people together right back in his face. Stalling doesn't help but the powers that be in dem circles maybe willing to give him until PA votes.

    If he loses big in Pennsylvania then its a forgone conclusion.

    Parent

    furiouser and furiouser (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31:00 AM EST
    I am really getting furious about this. This issue is NOT ABOUT Obama's campaign, nor about Clinton's campaign, nor about which of them is advantaged or disadavantaged.

    This is about voter's rights! I don't care if Obama or Clinton wins FL or MI, or whether they tie, or anything else. This is the U.S. and people get to vote and have their votes counted! Period.

    I believe it is unfair to seat the delegates under the previous vote - and not because it is unfair to Obama, but because it would be unfair to those voters who may have supported him. I believe it is also unfair to split the delegates 50-50 - again, because it subverts the will of the voters.

    The only democratic thing to do at this point is a primary re-vote.

    I swear, what in the world is happening to this party? I am calling Dean's office today to give them an earful (like they'll listen to me!)

    A mail-in primary (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:01:32 AM EST
    should help Hillary in FL. IIRC, seniors are more likely to to regularly use absentee ballots.

    One of my concerns is that this mail ballot look like an official absentee ballot, and not like a statement from AT&T.

    Presumably it will (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:03:29 AM EST
    I would hope they would use the same vendors who prepare their regular mail in ballots, of which over a million are submitted in a regular Presidential election.

    Parent
    Partisan maneuvering (none / 0) (#18)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    The Clinton campaign wants the revote and is pushing for it.

    The Obama campaign has no interest in a revote and remains ambivalent.

    The DNC will need to resolve the matter when it is all said and done.

    in Florida.

    The decision has been made.

    What will Obama do is the question, whether you like it or not.

    Parent

    What has to happen now (none / 0) (#24)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    to make it official?

    Parent
    Formal proposal (none / 0) (#45)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    Thursday (according to what I've read) the FDP will submit the plan to the DNC. Then they must wait 30 days for discussion. If approved after the 30 days they will be able to begin mailing ballots. They hope to mail ballots in April.

    I would expect that after the plan is submitted that the fundraising would begin in order to pay for the vote.

    Parent

    If both candidates (none / 0) (#116)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:04:51 AM EST
    supported a particular proposal, it would have a greater chance of being approved.

    Obama's strategy is clear: appear to be accomodating by saying he'll go along with whatever the DNC decides, but don't actually support any plausible solution but instead nitpick and have concerns about anything proposed. This will give the DNC an excuse, if they want it, to reject proposals, because they will be seen as coming from Clinton only, allowing Obama to say 'oh well, the DNC has decided and we have to go along with it'.

    The good news is Dean seems to support a mail-in re-vote and the momentum is against Obama on this, so it will likely pass, in spite of the lukewarm support of Obama.

    Why should I trust a candidate who is so eager to reach across the aisle and work with Republicans, but can't reach across the divide and work with the Democratic Party to come up with a feasible solution?

    Parent

    does it really matter (none / 0) (#27)
    by Lil on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:08 AM EST
    what Obama will do? A revote is coming no matter what. There is nothing he can do.

    Parent
    And so far (none / 0) (#28)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:09 AM EST
    you guys here have assigned a lot of actions to Obama that haven't occurred yet.  

    Obama has stated that he is fine with whatever the DNC chooses to do.  If the DNC has approved the mail-in revote then Obama is on record as saying he is ok with it.

    Parent

    We'll see (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:38:53 AM EST
    I like to pressure before the capitulation, not after.

    Parent
    so (none / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:19:04 AM EST
    why are we not doing it?

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#37)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:21:18 AM EST
    you can't just snap your fingers and make it so.

    From what I read Florida needs to submit a proposal which then will require a 30 day review.  That hasn't happened yet.

    FTR, neither Obama or Clinton can make or prevent a re-vote from happening.  They can appeal for one or oppose one.  But this is between the DNC, the state Democratic Parties, and the governments of Florida and Michigan.

    Parent

    this is from a post here last night (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:23:05 AM EST
        Facing tight deadlines for a do-over election, Florida Democrats are rushing to deliver to the national party as soon as Thursday a plan to vote again in the presidential primary -- this time, by mail. If approved, ballots could start going out to voters in April.
        . . . Under the emerging plan, estimated to cost as much as $10 million, the state's four million registered Democrats would be mailed self-addressed, stamped ballots that would be tabulated by an independent party, such as an accounting firm or a company that runs corporate shareholder voting.
        Ballots would be due back in Tallahassee on a specific day in late May or early June, and regional sites would likely be employed for last-minute voters, party officials said.

    Parent
    That is a general guideline (none / 0) (#42)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:33 AM EST
    A lot more needs to be hashed out and something formal has to be proposed.  So far nothing has been proposed.

    Parent
    We can not speak in principles now? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:39:34 AM EST
    You are too much.

    Parent
    Of course you can (none / 0) (#75)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:44:48 AM EST
    I'm fine with principles.

    But you are suggesting that Obama needs to do something yet there is nothing for him to do.

    Maggie Williams sent out the letter to make it appear like they are leading the way on the issue when, in truth, Florida democrats must do that.

    Parent

    But Dean said (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:30:45 AM EST
    the DNC will consult with the candidates before approving any proposal.  Dean and Obama have set up a circular stall operation here.  Even though Dean has said he approves the mail-in idea in general, you can bet the Obama people will bring up enough "worrisome" aspects of it for the DNC to not approve it in the end.

    Parent
    Actually the Clinton campaign would (none / 0) (#131)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:14:08 AM EST
    prefer to have the Jan. results honored, but they are advocating the RIGHT thing anyway.

    Parent
    Enough with the okiedoke, let's vote!! (none / 0) (#30)
    by ineedalife on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM EST
    I can't wait for someone in the Clinton campaign to tell Obama to stop trying to hoodwink and bamboozle the people of Florida and Michigan.

    Enough with the okiedoke, let's vote!!

    Enough with the race baiting (none / 0) (#32)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:18:01 AM EST
    This comment is OT.

    Parent
    Nuh-uh (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by blogtopus on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM EST
    Unless you think Obama is running a race-baiting campaign by including those phrases in his stump speeches, then there is no higher ground for you to stand on.

    As for being off topic, it clearly is referring to Obama's ambivalent attitude to the voters of Florida and Michigan. The fact that they used that verbiage to act as a two-fer commentary on Obama's campaign is more a testament to their wit than to any racism.

    Parent

    Perhaps you should (none / 0) (#66)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:38:50 AM EST
    tell this person or this one or this comment or this comment or this comment

    They seem to disagree with you.

    Parent

    Fly, if YOU don't think its race baiting (none / 0) (#76)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:44:51 AM EST
    when Obama says it, then you have no leg to stand on when you claim that someone here is race baiting for using the same word.

    Parent
    Actually no (none / 0) (#83)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:48:25 AM EST
    If I thought it was race-baiting then I think it would be appropriate to call him out on it.  

    I DON'T think it is race-baiting because it is a common quote not only among AAs but among younger people in general, although more common among AAs.

    But the protest over the use of that comment is clearly racially tinged because people are claiming that he is using it in a racially divisive way which there is no evidence to support.

    Parent

    So then why did you accuse someone (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:51:34 AM EST
    else of race-baiting when they used the word. You've got a double standard. Not race-baiting when Obama uses it, race-baiting when some one else uses it.

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#102)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:57:07 AM EST
    the suggestion is that Obama is being racially divisive when he is not.  

    Parent
    Stop it now (none / 0) (#111)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:01:50 AM EST
    You have not a leg to stand on in this argument. And you have nothing to me on being PC.

    Obama said it and that is why the commenter said it.

    Period. Stop this now or you will be suspended.

    Parent

    If that's what you think (none / 0) (#115)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:04:10 AM EST
    then why did you think a poster was being racially divisive for using the same words?

    Parent
    Flyerhawk (none / 0) (#117)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    How  do you  explain    that  Obama  only  uses  those  words  in  front  of  Black  audiences,   Fly?      

    Used  in   South  Carolina,  Georgia,  Mississippi.  

    NOT  used  in   Ohio,  Illinois,  Utah,  Idaho,   Wisconsin,  Texas.

    Why  do you  think   he  does  that?

    Parent

    I am being told (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:10:19 AM EST
    to stop this discussion.  So I will.

    Parent
    I think you already know the answer. (1.00 / 0) (#128)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:05 AM EST
    We  ALL  do.

    Parent
    typical (none / 0) (#138)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:30:03 AM EST
    Must be fun to take shots at someone who can't respond.

    Parent
    But you DID respond, didn't you? (none / 0) (#141)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:37:51 AM EST
    Typical.

    Parent
    okiedoke (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:20:06 AM EST
    that is southern not racist.


    Parent
    Please (none / 0) (#38)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:21:55 AM EST
    It is very clear what the poster was referring to.  

    Parent
    The poster (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    was referring to the words that Obama used two days ago. If the words are race baiting, then why did Obama use them?

    Parent
    It is indeed (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:36:49 AM EST
    He is referring to words uttered by Barack Obama.

    Parent
    clear to you maybe (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:11 AM EST
    live north of the mason dixon?


    Parent
    common expressions (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Lil on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:26:09 AM EST
    that I use all the time and did not know there were racist implications. In fact, I still don't get how they are racist.

    Parent
    You would need to ask (none / 0) (#49)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:30:23 AM EST
    the various Clinton supporters here who claim that Obama's use of that term is a AA dog whistle.

    Parent
    use of what terms (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:04 AM EST
    bamboozle?  hoodwinked?
    they are idiots.  you are aware that there have been major movies with these names recently, right.


    Parent
    Stop it flyerhawk (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:37:36 AM EST
    Immediately. Those were words from Obama.

    You wrongly accused some one of race baiting. You them an apology.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#73)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:43:27 AM EST
    I am CONSTANTLY told here that those words are dog whistle phrases for AAs because Denzel Washington said them while portraying Malcolm X.

    If you all agree that Obama is NOT using some sort of dog whistle when he uses that comment, I will gladly apologize for my statement.


    Parent

    agree (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:45:46 AM EST
    Im in
    I have said he uses dog whistle tactics to, among other things, gay bait but never included that.


    Parent
    The point is what YOU think (none / 0) (#81)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:47:36 AM EST
    If YOU don't think it is race baiting when Obama uses the words, then you can't come back and claim that its race baiting whe someone else uses them. It's highly hypocritical, don't you see?

    Parent
    I have no idea what you are talking about (none / 0) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:02:38 AM EST
    But I see this thread and you need to stop it. NOW.

    Parent
    Long and Playful Form Of OK (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:35:44 AM EST
    There are no other connotations.

    Parent
    Is hoodwink and bamboozle (none / 0) (#44)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:58 AM EST
    a common southern phrase as well?

    Parent
    OBAMA USED THEM!!! (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:38:25 AM EST
    Stop accusing people of race baiting when they have done no such thing.

    You owe us all an apology for your behavior in this subthread.

    Parent

    me thinks (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:30:37 AM EST
    you are grasping

    Parent
    THESE are racist comments????????? (none / 0) (#80)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:46:28 AM EST
    Please, let's not start this. There are racist words and there are anti-female words but these 3 are not. In fact, I was thinking of how my parents always said Okidokie as a fond and cute way of saying OK when I was growing up. As for bamboozle and hoodwink, these are everyday expressions and apparently I do not know the history of these words. No one told me I was being a racist when using them. Woe de me.

    Looked up the words. Bambooz-cheat & a Favorite English game.
    Hoodwink, which is what Obama says Hillary is doing, means trick.


    Parent

    To be clear (none / 0) (#84)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:49:10 AM EST
    race baiting does not equal racism.  

    Parent
    interesting distinction (none / 0) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:50:50 AM EST
    if you are in a hole, stop digging. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:43 AM EST
    race baiting (none / 0) (#92)
    by Lil on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:05 AM EST
    is a technique born of racism.

    Parent
    links (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    Linked text

    Linked text

    btw
    bamboozled was a Spike Lee film

    Parent

    And terms used in the West (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:44:45 AM EST
    apparently, since Obama is not a Southerner, nor from a Southern heritage. He's a Westerner.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:36:23 AM EST
    Obama said those words.

    Parent
    Flyerhawk (none / 0) (#96)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:54:38 AM EST
    Look,  FLy,  you  continually  make  excuses  for  Obama's  wishy-washy  lack of leadership.  

    If  Obama  wants  to  LEAD  the  Democratic  Party  as  the presidential  nominee,    he  needs  to   step up   and  frikkin   LEAD.  

    **   or  get off  the pot,   Barak.

    Parent

    inductive reasoning (none / 0) (#63)
    by corn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:37:30 AM EST
    Clinton says yes to a revote. And since that revote must be a mail in revote in Florida, Clinton says yes to a mail in revote in Florida.

    Might be what happens, but not what they sai

    DE-ductive reasoning (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:56:45 AM EST
    The proposed revote in Florida is a mail primary.

    Clinton knows this.

    Makes statement accepting revotes, knowing the only way is mail in.

    I deduce logically she is accepting mail in primary.

    I understand that deductive and inductive reasoning are described as follows:

    Many people distinguish between two basic kinds of argument: inductive and deductive. Induction is usually described as moving from the specific to the general, while deduction begins with the general and ends with the specific . . .

    My deduction went from the general statement, aplied other facts I know, and deduced the specific conclusion that Clinton was accepting a mail revote.

    Parent

    Let me add (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:59:13 AM EST
    That the facts I add exclude other possibilities regarding whether or not Clinton will accept a mail in revote.

    Clinton KNOWS that is the proposal that is being made. She knows no other will be made. Thus she knows the only revote will be a mail in revote.

    Hence. by accepting a revote, she has accepted the only possible one.

    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#125)
    by corn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:10:53 AM EST
    Just because it's the leading proposal doesn't mean it's the only way.   Unlikely as it may be, other options are still plausible.  

    Parent
    No, no time for alternatives now (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:21:24 AM EST
    as Florida faces deadlines -- laws re getting ballots to military, etc. -- that mean it must come up with something to submit Thursday. In the next 24 hours, nothing else is "plausible," because nothing else is feasible by the deadline.

    Parent
    What deadline? (none / 0) (#137)
    by corn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:24:58 AM EST
    As I said, there are several including (none / 0) (#147)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:51:01 PM EST
    for example, federal law that military must receive ballots overseas 45 days before an election. Counting back, including time for designing a ballot, getting it approved, printing it, addressing it, etc., -- there is no wiggle time left.

    Parent
    Well I agree that time is of the essence (none / 0) (#148)
    by corn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:11:06 PM EST
    but it's still kind of vague.  Not that this inductive point is all that big a deal,  but there's no proof that a mail-in vote is all we have time for.  It's cheaper and more likely.  I took issue with the logic because it's a little too common here.  The Clinton campaign made it official that they favor a re-vote.  I think it's reasonable to think this includes a mail-in, but it's a stretch to suggest this is the only type they endorse.

    Parent
    Your flaw (none / 0) (#118)
    by corn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:05:09 AM EST
    is in the assumption that mail-in is the only way.  I know you believe this, and it may be likely, but it's not fact.  

    From wiki:

    Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument are believed to support the conclusion but do not entail it; i.e. they do not ensure its truth.


    Parent
    Obama's campaign manager (none / 0) (#85)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:49:31 AM EST
    Orlando Sentinel political blog says


    Sen. Barack Obama's campaign is raising red flags about the idea of a revote in Florida to solve the mess over the state's delegates to the presidential nominating convention.

    David Plouffle, campaign manager to Obama, noted that the lead advocate for a mail-in revote is Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida, is a supporter of his opponent Sen. Hillary Clinton. Plouffle said any revote would need to get U.S. Justice Department approval.

    Plouffle again floated the idea of seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan - which were stripped of their delegates because they held their primaries too early - through some sort of negotiated "arrangement." One idea that has been tossed around is to evenly split the delegates between the two Democratic presidential candidates. If Florida's Jan. 29 vote were counted, Clinton would get a net of about 38 more pledged delegates than Obama.

    "The easiest...is an arrangement that allows those delegates to be seated,"
    Plouffle said. "But not based on those elections. That would not be fair."

    Why would Florida need US Justice Dept approval?

    Oh, lordy, what next? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:54:31 AM EST
    Approval by Bush? Maybe the United Nations, too? Maggie Williams, write another letter to Plouffe and ask why the Justice Department has a role in this. I want the answer. And, of course, the unthinking press is not asking. (I do enjoy the Orlando reporter's misspelling of Plouffe so that it looks more like Piffle.:-)

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:56:36 AM EST
    This is sounding more and more like Bush v. Gore every day, and Plouffe sound like the lawyers for Bush.

      There is no need for US Justice Department approval. Its merely another delaying tactic. Sad.

    Parent

    I've Already Switched From Dem To Indie (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:10:06 AM EST
    If anything other than a revote (my preference) or honoring the original primary occurs, I will stay home in November. I will not vote for a party or a candidate that disenfranchises voters.

    Parent
    I have no idea (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:52:23 AM EST
    Under the Voting Rights Act (none / 0) (#105)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:59:03 AM EST
    certain southern states need to get pre-approval from the DOJ for any change in their election procedures.  I'm not the guy to go to for the details.

    Parent
    Thanks for the info (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:09:13 AM EST
    There are 4 counties in Florida that are part of that according to Wiki. But since primaries are at the discretion of the parties does it still apply?

    The DNC could not count the votes at all and they didn't need approval from the Justice Dept for that.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#134)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:59 AM EST
    The DNC could not count the votes at all and they didn't need approval from the Justice Dept for that.


    Parent
    Is this an election? (none / 0) (#109)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:00:14 AM EST
    If the voting rights act applies to primaries, we got BIIIIG problems.

    Texas violated every rule in the book on voter dilution.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#114)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:03:58 AM EST
    I frankly have no idea.

    I bet my law-school colleague knows the answer.

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#151)
    by oldpro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:38:00 PM EST
    did you email her for an opinion???

    Parent
    Those "certain southern states" (none / 0) (#142)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:44:18 AM EST
    include   Texas.  

    By  opening   this  can of  worms,   Plouffe  puts in question  the  results  of  the  Texas  primacaucus.  

    DOJ  approval  was  not  secured  for  that  fiasco,  either.    

    Ergo,  those   delegates  and popular  vote  numbers  must  be  removed  from  Obama's  totals  until   DOJ   approval  is  gained.

    Parent

    Nevada suit tossed out by judicial system (none / 0) (#136)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:23:23 AM EST
    because the court said primaries are not in its purview but up to political parties. Obama camp celebrated that decision. So how does the judicial system have a role in a Florida primary, Plouffe?

    Parent
    Justice oversees fed elections? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:52:56 AM EST
    This is incredibly weak on their part.  Do they think no one can see through these ploys?

    And it begs the question: if you are so against something, then you must be against it because you know you are going to lose.

    They are trying to appear to stand on principals and to show concern for the sanctity of the process, but in fact they just look like they are waffling.

    How is this good campaigning?  How does this help their candidate?  God, what a bunch of amateurs.  I know I keep saying that, but it's true.  If this is how they handle adversity, then we are totally screwed if Obama gets the nomination.

    Parent

    Good question (none / 0) (#110)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    You'd   think  Plouffe  would  also  support  the  Justice  Dept  "overseeing"   counting   Texas   primary  &  caucus   voters   twice,  too,  wouldn't  you?  

    This  is pathetic by  the   Obama  campaign.  

    Nobody  is  hoodwinked   by  this   nonsense.  

    Parent

    Dissonance (none / 0) (#101)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:56:55 AM EST
    Obama supporters seem convinced that their candidate is just fine with a revote, that it's not up to him anyway, and that no one has anything to complain about.

    The fact that the Clinton campaign can actually gain traction with a message like this one demonstrates that, in fact, Obama's position is not at all clear in the minds of the public.

    Of course it's all politics.  That's the point.  Clinton is trying to force Obama off the fence, and she's going to keep scoring political points for as long as he remains there.  This is another case where the game of What Obama Really Meant is not going to serve him well.

    How could it be clear (none / 0) (#130)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:54 AM EST
    when Plouffe is out there saying things like they want the delegates seated but not on the basis of the original votes because that would not be fair?  He might as well say, "we'll let you know as soon as we come up with a solution that benefits our guy - we really don't give a hoot if the delegate allocation bears any relationship to actual votes cast - after all, it's worked just swell for us in caucuses and we'd really like to find a way to end up in that position."

    Hillary has not been all over the map with this - it's just as BTD has described it, above - Michigan and Florida need to be heard, we're in favor of a re-vote.  No equivocation there.

    Obama may not realize this - which is worrisome in and of itself - but the failure to just step up and accept what needs to happen to legitimize the nominating process shows a decided lack of leadership and the kind of cerebral micro-parsing that gave us "it depends on what they meaning of `is' is."


    Parent

    I'm Tired Of The Blame Game (none / 0) (#108)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:59:32 AM EST
    I'm tired of people making up excuses of why something can't get done instead of finding ways to make it happen. To me it is time to stop assigning blame and playing games and honor PEOPLES right to vote and have their vote count. The politicians screwed this up and not the voters in MI and FL. There is a chance that Obama could even pick up more votes in MI in a revote but that is not the issue. Let the d@mn chips fall whatever way they fall. Quit the nonsense and let people vote.

    Michigan is FUBAR (none / 0) (#119)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:06:15 AM EST
    Two points to be made. (1) Florida is a closed primary and presumably ballots will go only to registered Ds.  That is good, but there is still the problem highlighted in John Conyers' excellent book, "What Went Wrong in Ohio?". Many urban voters were caged by registered letters sent by the Republican Party that they refused to sign for. Both the Florida envelope and the ballot need to be carefully designed to prevent voter caging.  
    (2) Michigan, where I live, is a much more complicated issue best described by the military term FUBAR. (A) Michigan still has an "open" primary system. There is no list of registered Ds. What is to stop Rs from voting in another primary election as they have a perfect right to do under state law? There will be no incentive for Rs not to vote since their candidate is now known (that was definitely not the case on January 15 when Romney won in Michigan).  (B) Another solution would be to use the Michigan Democratic Party's plan B if the January 15 primary had been successfully challenged in court.  Plan B was to conduct a statewide caucus on February 9 open only to those that claimed to be D's and would be 18 years old in November. The machinery for that February 9 caucus is still in place since the Michigan Democratic Party required all local parties to train and gear up for a caucus just in case -- all that needs to be done is reprint the ballots and put both Obama's and Clinton's names on it. The State D party can run a caucus. A second primary election, however, would require a change in state law agreed to by our R-controlled Senate and a reversal of legal opinions issued by our R Secretary of State that votes for Obama, Edwards, Biden and Richardson cannot be counted.  

    If they use the Oregon system in Florida (none / 0) (#133)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:16:07 AM EST
    there will be no caging. No one has to sign for the ballot when it comes in the mail. They only have to sign the outside of the outer envelope WHEN THEY MAIL it in or drop it off. If they don't get the ballot in the mail, it is possible to pick it up in person, and safeguards are in place to assure that they can't vote twice.

    Parent
    Has anyone seen or heard.... (none / 0) (#121)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:08:36 AM EST
    about fundraising for either campaign since March 4?  There's a post at TPM that Hillary is grouping with donors now. Can Hillary compete financially in campaigns in MI and FL?

    DNC (none / 0) (#132)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:14:51 AM EST
    There was a good article over at RCP on Monday called 'Michigan, Florida Options Shrinking.  It discusses the credentials committee and how the Dean, Clinton and Obama contingencies are at odds.  It also discussed the Rules committee and why it favors Clinton.  Because the Rules committee favors Clinton, I don't think the ball is in Obama's court.

    Sound and fury signifying (none / 0) (#140)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:33:49 AM EST
    very little.

    Seating delegates from MI and FL or holding re-votes are simply an expensive PR move by the Democratic Party in an attempt to salvage a very bad, mostly self-inflicted wound.

    The outcome of both elections, if and when they occur, will leave the pledged delegate difference relatively unchanged.  Both campaigns understand this.

    Obama is essentially playing out the clock.  Running a 4 corners offense to make an old basketball analogy.

    Whether you like that strategy or not most likely depends on which candidate you support, but it is a smart move.

    He knows he can't reach the threshold of delegates through the primaries and caucuses alone.  He is working his way through the calendar until he can secure enough S-Ds to get over the top.

    Individuals may claim that he isn't leading or is being passive.  Fine.

    He's covered his bases by saying he supports the DNC's eventual decision, but also by saying the process needs to "fair".  A nice term that really doesn't mean anything at this point.

    Putting off the MI and FL revotes as long as possible blunts their importance.  He'll agree to a revote, but only if they occur late in May. Whatever the final results are, even if Hillary wins them both, they'll have no impact on the upcoming votes in Penn or Indiana or NC.

    At that point, the revotes in MI and FL become less important since Obama will be closer to the magic number and will be adding S-Ds.

    Clinton needs to have the revotes ASAP so she can get two big victories and claim more momentum and give her a strong argument for the S-Ds she needs before it becomes too late.

    Given the nature of the race, both campaigns are handling the issue exactly the way they should.  You can moan about what's "right" or what's "fair", but the current conditions are not the fault of either candidate.

    Clinton needs the revotes now; Obama needs them to occur later.  I expect Obama's people to continue to express concern and try to delay the results of any revote until after Indiana and NC vote.  I would do what both candidates are doing if I were in their position.

    No - too cynical (none / 0) (#143)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:00 AM EST
    "Whether you like that strategy or not most likely depends on which candidate you support, but it is a smart move."

    No - this is a really cynical viewpoint, imo. I like both candidates. I don't like the strategy of not letting people vote, period.

    Parent

    It is not about if the voters get to (none / 0) (#146)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:19:31 PM EST
    vote, but when.  Both sides want to have the elections.  They just want to have them when they would be most advantageous.

    Given that neither side is at fault for creating the situation why should either side fall on their sword to help the other?

    That may be cynical but it is also realistic.

    The situation could have been avoided if Dean had adopted the GOP response or if the states had tried to fix the problem way back when.

    Both sides realize that time is on Obama's side.  I believe both states should have revotes and that both candidates should have time to campaign there.  But that works to Obama's advantage not Clinton's.  She needs quick elections to prevent Obama from eating into her lead.

    A recent Rasmussen poll (March 6) gives Clinton a 16 point lead in Florida and shows it as tied in Michigan.  Which is more fair: holding a revote now (favoring Clinton in FL) or later (favoring Obama)?

    Parent

    You don't at all get that (none / 0) (#150)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:16:50 PM EST
    it's not going to be now. Stop trying to make this look bad on Clinton's part. The plan does have to be submitted now (byt tomorrow, actually) for the election even to be held in late May or early June. There are laws about military receiving ballots a month and a half ahead, etc. So there goes a goodly part of your argument.

    Parent
    florida mail-in (none / 0) (#153)
    by ollie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:49:55 PM EST
    Hate to burst any bubbles here, but, according to Florida election law, you cannot have a mail-in vote where there are candidates names on the ballot.  Meaning, you can vote on referedums etc., by mail, but no political candidates.  The only way it could happen is by emergency order of the Gov. apparently, and that has not happened, nor is there any guarantee the Govenor's order would be approved. Kind of a wrench, Huh?