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Obama Camp Claims DOJ Will Need To Review FL Revote Plan

By Big Tent Democrat

If you were in doubt if what posture the Obama campaign was going to take on revoting Michigan and Florida, wonder no more:

Sen. Barack Obama's campaign is raising red flags about the idea of a revote in Florida to solve the mess over the state's delegates to the presidential nominating convention. David Plouffle, campaign manager to Obama, noted that the lead advocate for a mail-in revote is Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida, is a supporter of his opponent Sen. Hillary Clinton. Plouffle said any revote would need to get U.S. Justice Department approval.

Does the DOJ need to approve a revote, presumably under the Voting Rights Act? There seems to be no Constitutional claims that could be made. Bill Nelson's lawsuit might have prospered if there were. If it does, then it is time to take another look at all the contests to see if the DOJ approved them and/or needed to approve them. The Texas contests (see in particular below my discussion of the last minute changes in the caucus system) in particular seemed to be institutionalized voter dilution of Latino votes in South Texas. Was that approved by the DOJ? Did it need to be? Would it be?

But what this really means of course is that Obama will say and do anything to stop the voters of Florida and Michigan from having a representative delegation at the Democratic National Convention. More . . .

I found this:

Certain activities of political parties are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. A change affecting voting effected by a political party is subject to the preclearance requirement: (a) If the change relates to a public electoral function of the party and (b) if the party is acting under authority explicitly or implicitly granted by a covered jurisdiction or political subunit subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. For example, changes with respect to the recruitment of party members, the conduct of political campaigns, and the drafting of party platforms are not subject to the preclearance requirement.

Changes with respect to the conduct of primary elections at which party nominees, delegates to party conventions, or party officials are chosen are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. Where appropriate the term "jurisdiction" (but not "covered jurisdiction") includes political parties.

The question becomes this, were ALL THE CHANGES that occurred in this primary season, in caucuses, in state laws, in DNC RULINGS, subject to preclearance?

Did the DNC, for example, have to clear its decision to strip Florida and Michigan of delegates? Did it have to clear its rule that the candidates no campaign in those states?

I am not an election lawyer, but I see a lot of interesting possibilities here.

But lawyers can dream of many things. Here is the best interpretation - this ALTERNATE method of selecting delegates for Florida and Michigan is in CONFORMANCE WITH EXISTING DNC rules. There is no change of procedure at all. This is what the rules contemplate. To take a different tack is to make every DNC ruling subject to pre-clearance.

Update [2008-3-12 13:0:20 by Big Tent Democrat]: I found this at the Texas Depart of State site:

Thursday, December 20, 2007 (75th day before primary election day) Last recommended day for a county chair to submit changes affecting voting to U.S. Department of Justice for preclearance. The federal Voting Rights Act of 1965 requires that any change in any "standard, practice, or procedure with respect to voting" be submitted to the U.S. Department of Justice for preclearance. Changes in election precincts, polling places, and various other actions require preclearance. Under Section 5, any change in a voting practice or procedure is legally unenforceable until the U.S. Attorney General (or a federal court in the District of Columbia) determines that the change does not have the purpose, or will not have the effect, of discriminating against racial or language minority group members.

The Attorney General of the U.S. Department of Justice has 60 days in which to interpose an objection to a submitted change affecting voting. Therefore, if the county executive committee has not already reviewed actions since the last primary elections to see if any changes must be submitted for preclearance, this should be done as soon as possible. If changes need to be made at the last minute, the Justice Department may be able to give the submission expedited consideration.

The Texas caucus rules were still being haggled over days before the caucus. Houston, I think we have a problem . . .

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  • Display: Sort:
    You think a caucus would get (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:59 AM EST
    pre clearance? Me neither. Great, let's annul all of the caucuses. How does that sound Mr. Plouffle?

    Florida (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by 1jane on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:19 AM EST
    Democrats representing Florida in Congress released this joint statement today.

    We are committed to working with the DNC, the Florida State Democratic party, our Democratic leaders in Florida, and our two candidates to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated. Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.

    Prediction: a 50-50 split of delegates.

    Parent

    50-50 split makes no sense at all. (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:52 AM EST
    Why not split it 90-10 in Hillary's favor? That would make more sense to me.

    Parent
    prediction-obama will lose general election (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    due to poor campaigning and not caring about voting rights. anyone who thinks that 50% is fair needs to rethink their position. that is not democracy or anything near it. what it is in my opinion is trying to steal votes.

    Parent
    Funny prediction (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:26 AM EST
    given that the Florida delegation is demanding to be seated as is. But at least we are all on notice now as to what the latest Obamamemo is on this matter.

    Parent
    Because a 50/50 (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    split makes so much sense.

    Parent
    A 50-50 split (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:23 AM EST
    is an even worse solution IMO than just not seating them at all. Talk about questionable legitimacy to the results. At least not seating them doesn't involve making them actually represent something in a way not supported by their vote.

    Parent
    It' s like going out to lunch and ordering (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:00:00 PM EST
    a salad, while your companion has the oysters on the half shell, the soup of the day, the market-price lobster, dessert and a half bottle of wine and when the check comes, thinks splitting the check 50-50 is just so much less complicated than each person paying for what they actually consumed...

    Parent
    And the wine (none / 0) (#146)
    by Paladin on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:32:45 PM EST
    Would be a $200 bottle.  Sounds fair to me!

    Parent
    DOJ (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    would  never   approve   50-50.  

    Obama  has  been hoist  on his own petard.

    Parent

    i hope so. arrogance just irritates me. (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:02:48 PM EST
    50 / 50 (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:03:40 PM EST
    is the same as not seating them at all.  

    Parent
    No, it's not the same. (none / 0) (#184)
    by K Lynne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:35:18 PM EST
    As I posted elsewhere on the thread, a 50/50 split gives an advantage to Obama over and above the obvious difference between the actual results and the 50/50 split.

    If the primary were a simple case of 'the person with the most delegates wins', that would be the case.  However, there is the added factor of the 'magic number', at which that person wins the nomination uncontested.

    Now, I haven't taken a close look at the number of delegates remaining vs. the number of Superdelegates, etc - but simply giving both HRC and BO 50% if the delegates puts them both that much closer to the 'magic number' - and if BO is closer to start with, that means he needs 50 fewer Supers to secure the nomination.

    Parent

    MLK might weep at this candidate (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:23:28 PM EST
    being the one to abuse the Voting Rights Act. Wonder what John Lewis thinks of this. . . .

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#83)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:22 AM EST
    The credential committee is divided in to 3 camps.  Obama, Clinton and Dean.  No one can get a majority.  Obama has enough to block Clinton from seating them as is, Clinton has enough to block Obama/Dean from a 50/50 split.

    Parent
    Furthermore (none / 0) (#140)
    by ineedalife on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:18:55 PM EST
    I could be wrong but can't a minority bloc force a floor fight? I thought you needed a super-majority (>80) to force anything through.  So nothing can be done without a consensus if the route is through the convention committees.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#160)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    Yes. Obama, even with the support of Dean's contingent, can be blocked by Clinton.  

    It's my understanding that the credentials committee deals with seating the stripped delegates.  Obama wants to split 50/50.  Clinton says no.  Clinton them seated as is.  Obama says no.  Neither can get enough votes to override the other.

    I think the only option to get delegates seated is a re-vote.  Clinton can get a majority on the 28 panel Rules committee which decides which type of re-vote is approved.  He wants a caucus.  I don't think he can get it.  Clinton wants a full primary.  I think she can get it by the rules committee, but I don't think she will get it.

    Parent

    as I said (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    delay delay delay
    that is the plan.  run out the clock till its to late.

    You know what that takes off the table? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:11 AM EST
    "Hillary is trying to steal the election with Super Delegates."

    Unless the Obama rules continue to hold. . .

    Parent

    big "unless" (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:54 AM EST
    Now, apparently. . . (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:23:15 AM EST
    she's trying to steal it with voters.

    Parent
    Obama is just echoing ... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31:27 AM EST
    the old school yard chant:  "No keepsies, no do-overs!"  

    Well, isn't he?

    Of course, this makes sense since his "strongest experience" in foreign policy involves his time spent in an Indonesian grammar school.

    Parent

    hard to imagine (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:01 AM EST
    how the argument will be made that the voters are trying to steal the election from Obama.  but we both know it will be made.
    I have seen posts elsewhere that basically say flat out that no matter how Clinton wins she will have stolen the election.


    Parent
    I think what ticks me off, though, (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:42 AM EST
    is that the only clock Obama seems to be concerned about is the one running on his nomination, and that he fails to see - short-sightedness being something of a signature trait, in my opinion - the backlash that is likely to come that could have us all needing serious meds to deal with President McCain.

    I know politicians have to have solid egos - there's no way they could do this without one - but the Obama campaign is increasingly looking like a massively vain undertaking, with little realization that the contest does not end when he gets the nomination.

    The call for DOJ approval, in light of what has been happening there, should have us all running for the exits.

    Parent

    The Audacity of Hope (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:05 AM EST
    becomes the Audacity of Nope.

    Parent
    I thought the Supreme Court ... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    had been fairly clear on this matter.  Political parties can essentially do whatever they want.  They're not subject to equal protection arguments.

    Of course the MSM will play this as honorable and courageous on Obama's part.  If Clinton did it the word "whining" would be used.

    This is a Voting Rights Act issue (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:25 AM EST
    BTD (none / 0) (#69)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:26 AM EST
    Voting  Rights   Act   "issue"  includes  the  state  of Texas.  

    Do-over  must   therefore  be  required  there, too.

    Parent

    ok then let's redo texas. (none / 0) (#75)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    let kick s carolina around too. how about a 50% split there also.

    Parent
    Is it true the caucus results from TX (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:18 AM EST
    are going to be voided? I understand that the counting has not moved forward at all from the 41% mark.

    Parent
    MYDD (none / 0) (#88)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    There is a write up of some issues on MYDD.  It's not looking so hot right now.

    Parent
    meaning the caucus might be voided? (none / 0) (#91)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:41 AM EST
    that would be great news, as far as I am concerned.

    Parent
    i meant that as snark, but who knows! (none / 0) (#99)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:57:40 AM EST
    Right but I thought ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:26:11 PM EST
    the Supreme Court had spoken on this.  Voting rights provisions don't necessarily apply to party nominating contests.  Hence, the legality of caucuses which wouldn't pass a straight voting rights test.

    Parent
    That's how I read it, too. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Primary   voting  are  the  venue of  the political  parties,  period.  It's  why  Nelson's  lawsuit  against   Dean's original  decision  was  thrown out.  

    Obama  camp  probably knows  that they wouldn't  win,  but  that's not  their motivation.  

    Their  purpose  is  delay,   until  the  time limit  is reached.  

    Unless, of  course,   Clinton  camp  agrees  to  a  50-50  split,  and  then they  won't  complain.    

    Go  figure.    

    Parent

    It's why the Nevada teachers' suit (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:28:17 PM EST
    was tossed, too. So let's reopen that issue there -- where teachers, custodians, etc., had to work caucus site schools so could not get to their own caucuses. Remember, that effectively barred many in the AFT, the teachers union that endorsed Clinton, from participating. The court there tossed the case, saying it had no oversight because primaries are the purview of parties.

    Parent
    Thank you, BTD. (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST
    For  whatever else,  I think your  newest  thread  shows   that it  is  Obama  who  will say  or  do  anything  to  get  elected,   no  matter  what it  costs  the party  as  a  whole.  

    I  see   diminishing  returns  in the  Obama  "magic."    

    And   he's  done  it  to himself.    

    x (none / 0) (#189)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:46:01 PM EST
    Yes, I think it's time Clinton started using this as a campaign issue. It shows a side of Obama that is not very pretty.


    Parent
    Will Ted Olson represent Obama? (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:16 AM EST


    John Bolton (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    will storm the office where the mail-in ballots are being prepared

    Parent
    DNC (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:23:08 AM EST
    Why is threatening legal action?. It is up to the credentials committee and the Bylaws and Rules committee.  What is he doing.

    He's doing this because the rules committee favors Clinton.  Of the 28 members, 12 already support Clinton, 7 support Obama.  Several others support Clinton they just haven't made official endorsements.  She may not have a majority on the credentialing committee as the Dean contingency sides with the Obama committee, but neithe can get a majority decision from the credentials committee, but CLINTON has the majority on the Rules committee which rules on whether or not a plan is accepted.  He will never get a caucus.  If Florida wants a primary, it looks like she could get it.

    I just answered my own question.  sigh

    Yes (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:47 AM EST
    This is a DNC matter, not a DOJ matter.

    Parent
    Universal Right (none / 0) (#41)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    Universal Right to Vote Act?

    Parent
    Who is threatening legal action? (none / 0) (#100)
    by tbetz on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:58:23 AM EST
    I don't see a threat in anything Plouffe has said.
    Ana Marie Cox does report that the Justice Department observation did come up in call, so it's not just one blogger reporting it.

    However, I do agree that Obama's campaign staff should shut their pieholes about even hinting at blocking a re-vote, and even if they would like to do so, they should let the Clinton supporters in the Florida congressional delegation do that work for them.

    Parent

    Gosh (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:28 AM EST
    I thought they were willing to go along with whatever the DNC decides?

    Now they will only go along with whatever the DNC and the DOJ decides. Anything to not have to go along with what the VOTERS decide.

    I hope those big money donors (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:58 AM EST
    he visited last year in Fl take this into consideration when he comes back for money.

    Okay, more Kathy Kwestions (tm) (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    1.  Do we know what Obama's cash on hand is right now?  Have all his small donors been tapped out?

    2.  How is it going to play for the candidate who is "above all this politicking" to be calling in the DOJ or bringing in the lawyers?  Excellent article in (I think) the NY Times the other day about how Obama loses when he looks like a politician.

    3.  What are the networks going to say?  I see that Oberman is going to spend his time tonight scolding Clinton.  Wonder why he's not going to scold Obama for stopping a democratic vote?

    4.  Has Dean commented on any of this?

    5.  How does the statement from Obama-man Alcee Hastings from last night (claiming the congressional districts don't support a revote) impact this?


    You must be confused (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    Clinton is the candidate who will say and do anything to win the election. Obama is above all that. I know, because I've heard him say so numerous times.

    excuse me! is that i joke? i hope so. (none / 0) (#127)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:10:44 PM EST
    thanks! (none / 0) (#153)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:48:54 PM EST
    Alternate title for my post (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    Obama Lawyers Up Against FL and MI

    Could this create a backlash big enough to... (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    jeopardize "the Math" for Obama?  I think it can and have made my case in a post below.

    Obama just needs to make sure Clinton doesn't blow him out in any of the remaining big states so she cannot make up enough of the deficit in pledged delegates.  He is now creating an opening, albeit the tiniest of slivers than can result in a disaster for him if and when the Michigan and Florida voters do get to re-vote.

    This alone may not be enough to provoke his own collapse in those states, but coupled with the continued race-related allegations and distortions (like going back to blame Clinton for that Drudge photo after he had said he took her word for it) can create a perfect storm.

    Watch out, I think I am going to be right on this one.

    Parent

    YES on the huge backlash. (none / 0) (#159)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:01:49 PM EST
    Or this one: (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:25 AM EST
    Serious  Bamboozling  Begins

    "Okie-doke,"   says  the  DNC.  

    Parent

    How about (none / 0) (#171)
    by phat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    Obama to FL, MI

    Drop dead.

    Parent

    Excellent historical allusion -- (none / 0) (#182)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:31:01 PM EST
    I enjoyed that. I can envision that old front page even now. :-)

    Parent
    The risk for Obama: THE MATH (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:09 AM EST
    The thought just occured to me that Barack Obama's attempts to block and stonewall on the re-vote issue can be the one surefire way for him to blow "the Math" and his own chances for the nomination.

    His refusal to recognize the importance of counting the votes in these two major states where millions of Democrats voted, could end up being a COLLOSAL MISTAKE if and when the process moves forward to have the voting take place anyway.

    If by then he manages to alienate enough voters, MAYBE, just maybe Hillary Clinton can achieve an unexpected blowout by a large enough margin that allows her to catch up in pledged delegates by the time Puerto Rico is done voting later in June.

    If he would just cut his losses right now and move to have the voting before there is too much resentment against him, he would never lose the pledged delegate lead.  But instead, they are going down a very dangerous path.

    This is the only realistic way that has emerged for Obama to "blow it" when it comes to pledged delegates.

    He is about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    kos himself (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM EST
    And here's kos himself crowing over the obstructionism of the FL Democratic Congressmen and treating it as decisive:
    No redo in Florida.
    ...
    Here's how you seat them -- you cut them in half for breaking the rules, like the GOP did, and then you assign them 50/50 each to Obama and Clinton. Presto! Issue solved.

    So much for more party-building!

    This is just his supporters (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    Setting this up in such a way where when the revote happens it'll appear like Obama's doing us all a favor.


    Parent
    Do you still visit over there? (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    I've never GBCW because I just didn't even care enough to say goodbye.

    Parent
    Closing the Gate with a Crash (none / 0) (#183)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:32:59 PM EST
    on FL and MI -- the title of the Kos sequel.

    Parent
    Well Markos is consistent at least (ugh, ugh, ugh) (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:01:33 PM EST
    We are in a great deal of trouble if that blog is in anyway a kingmaker in our Democratic process.


    Parent
    Not necessarily (none / 0) (#148)
    by AF on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:33:33 PM EST
    An effectively run revote will be legitimate and shouldn't create a great deal of trouble.

    Parent
    My post is about the blog (none / 0) (#151)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    and the owner of that blog is not advocating what you just mentioned in your post.

    50/50 sham is what he likes.  Legitimate and effectively run revote is a different matter for us to agree on.

    Parent

    Concern troll (none / 0) (#188)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:44:06 PM EST
    The man himself condescended to label me a concern troll for this.

    Parent
    Gotta love those 28 people that leapt for him (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:53:14 PM EST
    A seat does not mean a voice (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:08:01 PM EST
    Kos's plan gives the delegates an actual physical chair at the convention, and nothing else.  I hope they boycott if this ends up being the "solution"

    Parent
    It's funny because (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:17:47 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure it was Kos himself who first told me in one of his posts that this entire issue would be moot because we would have a winner by now who would graciously allow the FL & MI delegations to be seated.

    Parent
    Kos' glee (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:18:44 PM EST
    He was also an early and loud voice saying that we needed to seat delegations from both states for all the reasons we are familiar with. I am genuinely shocked that he would not only make a proposal so divorced from legitimacy, but actually be gleeful about it.

    I know many people have been disillusioned about DailyKos for quite some time, but this is a turning point for me.

    Parent

    kos? well it speaks for itself! (none / 0) (#97)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    the dnc called looking for money this (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
    morning. i told them to seat floria and then we'd talk. after that i hung up on them.

    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    I wrote to them a month ago and asked them to do the same thing.

    They asked me for money and ignored my concerns.


    Parent

    It's just about time (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by frankly0 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:00:53 PM EST
    for the Clinton campaign to call out Obama for his stalling tactics.

    What the Clinton campaign needs to do is make a clear, emphatic statement in favor of re-dos, with using the original primaries only as a back-up, coming from Hillary's own mouth.

    Having done that, Hillary can attack Obama, candidate to candidate, on this issue, and do so relentlessly. Obama will never have a good answer because there is no good answer. And the fallout from his opposition to basic democracy will be enormous.

    Speaking for me only (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:42 PM EST
    I think the Clinton campaign has a tendency to be too diplomatic at times.  It is a consequence of all those years being shellshocked by the right wing and the media, I think.

    But sometimes you've got to make clear, declarative and unafraid statements that speak to the truth of the matter.  If this kind of thing continues from the Obama campaign I would welcome more bluntness from them.

    Parent

    I think that (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by frankly0 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    the Clinton campaign is gradually leading up to the attack on Obama on this point. It's setting down a series of markers, including the just issued letter to the Obama campaign, pressing the issue. Each further obfuscation or delay then will become part of a large, very effective case against Obama. There's enough time left that this can be done effectively -- but I certainly wouldn't wait terribly long before raising it to the highest level.

    Even if Obama were to manage to sabotage the re-do in FL and MI, he would

    1. completely undercut his claim that the FL and MI primaries shouldn't be used as a basis for seating delegates since they would be not fully democratic -- he would have taken a far more anti-democratic approach himself
    2. create an extremely powerful argument for Hillary in all remaining elections, turning many potential Obama supporters against him.


    Parent
    That seems to be the Clinton style (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:26:15 PM EST
    more methodical, but reliably effective.  They seem especially adept at building the crescendo of a narrative at just the right time when their backs are up against the wall.  I just wish they'd frontload a little more and put the pressure on earlier.  Always seeing the person you support having to come from behind in miraculous fashion is taxing to say the least.

    Parent
    The HRC campaign (none / 0) (#164)
    by magisterludi on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:13:40 PM EST
    is no doubt taking notes. Right now, Obama is doing their work for them. Might as well play it out for a, hopefully, short while longer.

    Parent
    50/50 is the biggest joke of a solution ever (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:06:56 PM EST
    It is beyond a non-starter. It makes a Caucus seem like a great and Democratic resolution by comparison, which is perhaps the entire motivation behind floating it.

    Move the goal posts so drastically to one side that you end up getting what you want after the haggling is done.  Sorry, the Clinton family is just a tad too smart and have been around the block long enough not to fall for that.

    Such a political blunder- afraid of Edwards? (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:16:31 PM EST
    This is a political mistake in so many ways.  If Obama said right now, like Clinton did, that he would tell his people on the credentials and rules committees to seat the FL and MI delegates as they stand from the January primaries (as he WILL do at the convention if there is no revote and it is clear he will be the nominee) he would get huge political kudos for being brave enough to take the risk, being a uniter, etc.  And it would shut Clinton up on this issue. Even I am convinced that his Math, even if you count FL and MI right now, is invincible.  He would still have a 100+ lead in pledged delegates.  

    That he does not do that tells me he is not nearly as confident of his Math as he pretends to be.  Admitting that weakness is a political mistake in itself.  But why is so worried about it?  I believe he has reason to believe Edwards will endorse Clinton before the NC primary, and she will get the Edwards delegates as well.  That is the only conceivable reason I see for him being so seemingly stupid right now.

    That 5 is because I want you to be RIGHT. (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by MMW on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:23:35 PM EST
    it's about the voters... (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:17:19 PM EST
    and nothing else, imho:

    • seating delegates as is is unfair (not because it's unfair to Obama but because it's potentially unfair to voters who didn't vote). But, yes, it's also unfair to Obama.

    • 50/50 split is unfair (not because it's unfair to Clinton but, again, because it's unfair to voters). But, yes, it would also be unfair to Clinton.

    The only fair thing to do at this point is a primary re-vote. It is outrageous that people keep discussing this in terms of what advantages/disadvantages accrue to which campaign. This is the U.S. and this is an election - we must look like a laughingstock at this point.

    Let the people vote!

    A laughing stock (none / 0) (#141)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:19:24 PM EST
    at this point? I think that point was reached back in 2000 as far as voting is concerned.

    Parent
    Am I missing something? (none / 0) (#172)
    by K Lynne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:42:59 PM EST
    Not only is the 50/50 split unfair to Hillary because it is contrary to the actual vote split in the election, it actually gives Obama an advantage (over not seating the delegates at all) because it gets him closer to the 'magic number' - basically enabling him to secure the nomination with fewer Supers.  

    My first thought was that the 50/50 split would be mathematically equivalent to not seating the delegates at all, but that is only if there isn't the magic number at which the nomination is clinched.  

    I'm sure Hillary gets this and is preparing a HUGE media blitz when the time is right...

    Parent

    I believe (none / 0) (#185)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:38:00 PM EST
    that seating FL would also change the "magic number", which right now doesn't include delegates from FL or MI as part of the needed total.

    If that's not the case, you'd be correct. But I believe it is, which means 50-50 is just like not seating them -- thereby utterly missing the point that the complaint isn't about some Fl party insiders getting to party in Denver, but about people's votes counting.

    Parent

    Judgement call? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by D Jessup on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:35:52 PM EST
    Since Obama is in the lead for the Democratic nomination and the nominee is the leader of the party, FL and MI would be his first major judgment call.  I guess if this judgment call goes his way and they are not counted or seated, and he wins because of that, he can tell FL and MI that he was against seating them since the beginning.  Come on Obama show some leadership somewhere.

    Obama rode the golden child wave to this? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:56:47 PM EST
    This is going to be become the bad child wave very quickly.  I'm not happy. I want this race to be about issues and distilling our candidate but it looks like I must settle for campaign antics and poodles leaping through hoops aflame all the way around.  Whaaaaaaaaa!

    Wow. (none / 0) (#2)
    by rooge04 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:15:16 AM EST
    They're really really really trying to make those votes not count, huh?

    Sounds like (none / 0) (#8)
    by 0 politico on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:02 AM EST
    an attempt to roadblock any revotes in these states by bringing the DOJ into this.  I don't know if they (the DOJ) have a real play in this, but it would be time consuming if DOJ gets involved.  Perhaps enough time to ensure a revote cannot take place.

    Wasn't another part of Plouffle's comments that any reseating of FL and MI delegates should not be based on the prior (implies any) vote tallies, but simply a 50-50 split.

    Hmmm?  Any solution that insures his candidate maintains his delegat lead, regardless of the wishes of the voters in FL and MI seems to work for Plouffle.  Or, am I reading this wrong?

    I don't think you are reading it wrong (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:48 AM EST
    A mail-in revote needs DOJ approval. Ignoring the votes of Florida and Michigan needs no approval. Whatever gives Obama the lead is fine, anything else is questionable. That's about the gist of the argument.

    Parent
    Absentee (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM EST
    Florida already has an established absentee voting process.  How is having a mail-in different from an absentee?  Potaato, Potawto... they are the same thing.  Mail them out, fill them out, mail them in.

    Parent
    Not sure (none / 0) (#161)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:07:16 PM EST
    a   mail-in  revote   needs  a  DOJ  approval.  

    Nelson's  lawsuit   against  Dean's   decision  was  thrown out  by  the  courts    saying  the primaries  were  the  responsibility  of  the  political parties,  and not  the  courts.  

    This   is  just  a  stall   tactic  by  Obama  campaign.

    Parent

    Is he really in such a strong position (none / 0) (#10)
    by katiebird on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:38 AM EST
    that he can do this without risk to the legitimacy of his campaign?

    It's unreasonable to think that some FL & MI delegates won't be seated at the convention.  How does he expect to get them there?

    Also, it seems to me that winning MI or FL would give him a much clearer path to the nomination.  How can he do that by blocking or dragging his heels on every revote plan?

    Well, what I (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by rooge04 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:21:31 AM EST
    think is that his ardent supporters will justify no re-vote by claiming 'the rules' again. And they don't want those votes counted. If CLinton wins the nom, they will claim it is stolen no matter what the situation.

    As for the GE, goodbye 2 critical states.

    Parent

    goodbye democratic presidency. (none / 0) (#118)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:04:44 PM EST
    Whatever happens, Obama is going to (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:11 AM EST
    challenge any attempt to seat the FL and MI delegates. If there is a re-vote, his campaign will claim it is invalid, because the DOJ did not approve it, or some other such nonsense.


    Parent
    exactly what I think (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM EST
    The inmates at Orange Republic (5.00 / 7) (#17)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:24:24 AM EST
    must be furious that Clinton is trying to thwart Democracy by counting votes.

    Parent
    he now has an army (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:33 AM EST
    of flyine monkeys who will, it seems, argue anything he does is legit.

    Parent
    The campaign responses (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:26:49 AM EST
    indicate to me that they have some pretty bad data out of FL and MI. They'd probably lose FL by about the same proportion, but I have much less of a grasp on MI. If they lost both, and PA, by biggish margins, that's a scenario that could really hurt Obama's chances, so it makes sense from a political point of view.

    But I didn't think they'd go so far as they're going trying to avoid it. They're floating every balloon to try to get around a revote they can manage. Frankly, IMO, they're many days late, and have already lost that argument -- there will almost certainly be a revote, and they're just making themselves look bad with this stuff. Their best hope now, as far as I can tell, is jockeying for the fairest revotes that can be had and getting to work building campaign in MI and FL, to minimize Clinton's popular vote gains there.

    I really don't understand their current positioning on this.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#18)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:28 AM EST
    I found some information on this.  Florida, like Texas, is one of the states which has to obtain preclearance of changes in voting procedures from the DOJ.  28 CFR 51.7 provides:

    Certain activities of political parties are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. A change affecting voting effected by a political party is subject to the preclearance requirement: (a) If the change relates to a public electoral function of the party and (b) if the party is acting under authority explicitly or implicitly granted by a covered jurisdiction or political subunit subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. For example, changes with respect to the recruitment of party members, the conduct of political campaigns, and the drafting of party platforms are not subject to the preclearance requirement. Changes with respect to the conduct of primary elections at which party nominees, delegates to party conventions, or party officials are chosen are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. Where appropriate the term "jurisdiction" (but not "covered jurisdiction") includes political parties.

    Just in case there is any doubt, section 51.12 provides (in remarkably plain English):

    Any change affecting voting, even though it appears to be minor or indirect, returns to a prior practice or procedure, ostensibly expands voting rights, or is designed to remove the elements that caused objection by the Attorney General to a prior submitted change, must meet the Section 5 preclearance requirement.

    "Preclearance" essentially means you have to make a formal submission to the DOJ and give them 60 days to object if they find the change would be discriminatory in purpose or effect.

    This is all from seat-of-the-pants research so I could be missing any number of things.

    So to be clear (none / 0) (#19)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:26:11 AM EST
    this is a requirement that kicks in whether or not the Obama campaign objects.

    Parent
    I disagree (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:23 AM EST
    I do not believe it kicks in at all.

    The existing DNC rules allow for the choosing of an alternative delegate selection process. there has been no rule change.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:53 AM EST
    This is a matter of DNC rules and nothing else, as courts already ruled when Nelson challenged the barring of the FL primary.   Obama is just trying to throw up false challenges and roadblocks.  Nothing could be clearer.

    Parent
    Is this a relict of strictures from (none / 0) (#22)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:13 AM EST
    Civil Rights Acts violations?

    Parent
    That's my understanding (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    it actually applies only to five counties in Florida, I guess, but obviously this would be a statewide re-vote so it makes no difference.

    Parent
    I disagree with you (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:34:22 AM EST
    that this is a change in Party rules.

    The best interpretation is that the DNC is applying its existing rules.

    Parent

    so (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    so we have time to make it all happen?

    Parent
    The clock is the DNC June 10 clock (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:37:25 AM EST
    The DOJ is irrelevant UNLESS someone wants to sue.

    Parent
    UNLESS (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:05 AM EST
    uh oh

    Parent
    60 days (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:29:00 AM EST
    does that give us enough time?
    thanks for the research btw


    Parent
    So under THIS obligation (none / 0) (#25)
    by katiebird on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:29:38 AM EST
    is there time for a revote?  Or have we already missed the chance?

    Parent
    I disagree with Steve's interpretation (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:33:36 AM EST
    There is no rule change. This is in conformance with the DNC's OWN RULES.

    Parent
    Just wrote it up myself (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:30:53 AM EST
    And let me say this, that provision opens up a BIG can of worms.

    See my addition.

    I think the BETTER interpretation is that this is in ocnofrmance with EXISTING DNC rules, which allow it to provide an alternative method of delegate selection.

    Parent

    Personally (none / 0) (#37)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:58 AM EST
    I find it hard to believe that this would not be considered a change in procedure.

    Section 51.12, which I quote, makes it clear that a change requires preclearance even if it is a return to a prior procedure.

    I'm far from an expert here but it's just my gut feeling that it's hard to characterize this as nothing more than a change by the DNC.  Is the State of Florida really not going to be involved at all?

    Parent

    Did the Florida law (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    scheduling the 1/29 election get preclearance? how about the decision to strip the delegates? How about the decision to NOT strip the delegates in South Carolina?

    You can lawyer this thing if you want.

    The point is Obama seems to want to lawyer this thing.

    Parent

    Re-do (none / 0) (#54)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    I thought we would get a re-do in FL and MI not a re-do of Chicago politics that reminds me of using lawyers to nitpick other candidates off the ballot.

    Parent
    Ding! This is how Obama always has won (none / 0) (#187)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:41:36 PM EST
    from his very first political race -- pushing a respected party elder, a woman, out of the way as well as others to end up as the only one on the ballot. It's the "Chicago Way" now become the Obama Rules. (Btw, google obama and chicago way -- the Chitown press has been saying for some time that they recognize every step he makes; they have seen it before.)

    Parent
    As far as I know (none / 0) (#86)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:36 AM EST
    The State of Florida won't be running the election nor paying for it. The governor had talked about overseeing it but has backed away from that position. So there will be no involvement of the state outside of obtaining records from them.

    Parent
    I am not a lawyer (none / 0) (#68)
    by zzyzx on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:20 AM EST
    But I think that the no delegates at all clause and the no campaign clause falls under, "For example, changes with respect to the recruitment of party members, the conduct of political campaigns, and the drafting of party platforms are not subject to the preclearance requirement."  At least the no campaigning should be covered under "the conduct of political campaigns."

    As I read the law, its goal is to make sure that there's no voting rules created that are designed to restrict a minority, e.g. no having an election on Yom Kippur in order to keep the Jewish population at home.  

    Changing the procedure from an election to a mail in vote (or to a caucus for that matter) could have minority representation issues.  There could be issues about mail delivery and voter intimidation; people complain about caucuses not being a secret ballot, but what about a system where a boss could demand that everyone brings in their ballots, marks them the way he or she wants them to, and then collects them to be mailed.

    Personally, I favor a revote and hope that it happens both here and in MI.  I just wish people had started getting serious about this a few months ago rather than pushing up against deadlines.

    Parent

    I think we need to know (none / 0) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:41 AM EST
    what the DOJ's posture was on Texas for instance.

    Parent
    On Texas for what? (none / 0) (#101)
    by zzyzx on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:58:56 AM EST
    The Primacacus stupidity has existed for decades.  Some Google searching shows that it was created after 1968 which is after the law was enacted, so there must be some DoJ ruling in the late 60s.  I don't know how you'd find it though.

    If you meant something other than the primacaucus, then I apologize.

    Parent

    The caucus rules were negotiated (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:32:49 PM EST
    right up to the day of the contest.

    No preclearance was garnered.

    Parent

    Just googling around (none / 0) (#150)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:37:46 PM EST
    I found this note from a former DOJ attorney:

    At DOJ in 2003, when the Michigan Democratic Party planned to use Internet voting for the 2004 primary, I called the party chair and the party's counsel to inform them that Internet voting would be a voting change and to request that this change be submitted to DOJ. The change was eventually submitted and precleared. Section 5 covers two Michigan townships.

    Surely there must be a clear answer to all this.  


    Parent

    New Bill (none / 0) (#33)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:08 AM EST
    Is this why they have a bill up allowing mail-in vote?  They are trying to get this through as quickly as possible?

    Parent
    He's stalling (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:27 AM EST
    It'll happen and it'll work out great for Obama.

    There's no point in tracking his stalling tactics here in some effort to spin this bad for Obama when this'll all work out great for Obama in the end.

    It'll just cause more bitterness in the end.


    Bitterness? (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by americanincanada on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:09 AM EST
    That is an understatement.

    Obama and his campaign are going to fracture our party for a generation. And all to get the nomination for a race he now cannot win.

    Parent

    One solution (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:45:42 AM EST
    Certify the results we have.


    Parent
    Well, I live in a red state where Obama (none / 0) (#64)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:50 AM EST
    has no chance. He won't be getting my vote if he is the nominee.

    Parent
    Nader (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:58 AM EST
    is looking  better and better

    Parent
    exactly! obama will never be president. (none / 0) (#92)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:41 AM EST
    now if he'd run an election like his spin was saying, who can say. but now, no! i know there is some negative feeling about taylor marsh, but i suggest you take a long hard look at the diary there about the anger of the hillary supporters. it isn't going away and it will not mean votes for obama.

    Parent
    It's sad (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:01:06 PM EST
    I don't see how anyone can come back from this situation.

    Parent
    Yeah Taylor marsh (none / 0) (#195)
    by Rainsong on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:07:50 PM EST
    .. can be gross, but balanced up against all the gross ones in Obama's tank, she's such a small minority.

    While I think the majority of Democrat voters will just follow the Party's eventual nominee, enough support will fall off in key states, it only needs a small % to stay home depending where it is. Add Nader into the mix,depending on how he runs his campaign,there's even more risk of increasing small drop-offs.

    Parent

    it will be interesting to hear nader's take (none / 0) (#199)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:49:36 PM EST
    on obama if he is the candidate. i was wondering what nader's reasoning was for running. i know he said if edwards was the nominee he wouldn't. i am assuming he puts clinton and obama in the same group.

    Parent
    Nader's running mate wrote about Obama .. (none / 0) (#202)
    by Rainsong on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:04:03 AM EST
    ... just prior to announcing their bid

    Matt Gonzalez at:
    Count me out

    Parent

    thanks for the link and reminding (none / 0) (#203)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:09:54 AM EST
    me about what he said. i hope he gets some media attention if obama is the candidate.

    Parent
    Your statement is a candidate for the (none / 0) (#170)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:36:52 PM EST
    Grandiose Fortune-Telling Comment of the Decade Award.

    Congratulations on your ability to peer into the future.

    You're right up their with Wolfowitz and his "The Iraq War will pay for itself."

    You wouldn't happen to know who wins the Kentucky Derby this year?

    Parent

    I hope you are wrong (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:56 AM EST
    but I fear you are right

    Parent
    A revote that significantly alters (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:54 AM EST
    The original results will smell like a con to those who really care about all this.


    Parent
    I dont get (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:20 AM EST
    how a revote will feel like a con to anyone but Obama koolaid drinkers.
    the complaint all along has been that the votes are bad because of the circumstances of the original vote.


    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    Obama now has a chance to focus his entire efforts and ground game on Florida for one vote.

    This is working out well for Obama.


    Parent

    do you honestly believe that (none / 0) (#120)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:07:48 PM EST
    obama will change minds after the dog and pony show his campaign put on? naw!

    Parent
    Look what was done in MS yesterday (none / 0) (#190)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:04:13 PM EST
    for the sake of a difference of three delegates (last I saw the count).

    Parent
    This is not good (none / 0) (#49)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:40:35 AM EST
    I think this is horrible.  Originally, he looked a little petty.  I think it's becoming a bigger issue every day.  He's running on new politics.  This is SO old.  He can not afford to lose any more Clinton supporters.  I am very disappointed.

    Parent
    He began his career with disenfran- (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
    chisement as his main technique. There's nothing to be surprised at here.

    Parent
    sigh (none / 0) (#111)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:02:44 PM EST
    I know, lawyers again.

    Parent
    yup, he mentioned old style (none / 0) (#123)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:08:49 PM EST
    chicago politics. tell you what, i am sick of obama's chicago politics. and if i feel that way, quess what many others do also.

    Parent
    Well, I can't say I have liked Obama (5.00 / 7) (#131)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:31 PM EST
    at all, for months, but what tipped the scale for me, irrevocably, was learning that his vaunted legislative successes in IL were part of a package dumped in his lap during his last year to pad his resume for a Senate run.
    Then, once in the Senate, he won't even do his job.
    He is not prepared---period.
    He's smarter than W., but he's no more ready for the job than W. was, and with his blinding arrogance, he'll probably trust his intuition---his "judgment"---just as much as Bush. Ugh.

    Parent
    Yep, looks to me like another one (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:06:30 PM EST
    who doesn't like harrrrd worrrrrk. For me, it also was finding out, many months ago, about his U.S. Senate record -- about missing almost 40% of the votes in his first year alone (when all of the other candidates from Congress had better records by far).

    Parent
    I was going to rate your comment a 5 (none / 0) (#74)
    by MMW on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:50:03 AM EST
    but I don't want you to be right - no matter what logic is saying.

    Parent
    I don't want to be right either (none / 0) (#77)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:05 AM EST
    But you tell me how Clinton supporters are going to feel when the results of the revote are posted?

    Parent
    I have always maintained (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by MMW on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:55 PM EST
    that if she gets less votes there will be bitterness, if she gets more votes there will be bitterness, if he gets more votes there will be bitterness, if he gets less votes there will be bitterness.

    We can't get away from it with this situation. But yes you're absolutely right. His stalling will create bitterness not just in Florida or Michigan or both but around the country.

    Parent

    Positive thinking, come on :) (none / 0) (#104)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:59:18 AM EST
    I am detecting a fatalistic or defeatist attitude Edgar! Argh, I feel your pain on this.  But those of us who find ourselves feeling disgusted at the unfairness of this primary process need to stand up and continue to be heard.

    My faith in our Democracy is anemic right now, but there is still a spark of hope that as Democrats we will come to our senses and do the right thing for the voters.

    Hang in there...

    Parent

    It doesn't matter what my attitude is (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:56 PM EST
    It matters what the results of the revote will be.

    If your opinion is that they will be the same as the results we already have, then great.

    If they are vastly different, an improvement for Obama, and then I'm the only Clinton supporter who feels jobbed then fine, too.

    Parent

    No, I think the results will be WORSE for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:07:57 PM EST
    Especially if he continues to brazenly remind the voters of Michigan and Florida just how much he cares about their votes being counted.

    Parent
    Yes, don't forget Nasa! (none / 0) (#133)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:53 PM EST
    i haven't forgotten nasa. (none / 0) (#200)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:53:08 PM EST
    neither will the repubs in texas if he is the candidate either.

    Parent
    Then you will be right (none / 0) (#134)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:14:07 PM EST
    And I will be wrong.


    Parent
    It is stalling tactics (none / 0) (#113)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:41 PM EST
    Which is fine. But I think you are wrong to what end. I don't think the Obama camp is willing to run out the clock. I think they are hoping long enough hoping for something to come up that may make this not relevant any more. For example, if he pulls off a win or good showing in PA this may not matter. And if they can avoid it they will.

    Truth is they won't be able to avoid it if all else fails, and I am pretty sure they know that.

    Parent

    Hoping that a crushing victory (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:11:24 PM EST
    would render the issue moot was the original strategy that created this whole mess. That ship has sailed because no candidate is going to go into the convention with enough pledged delegates to render FL and MI moot.

    Parent
    I agree with you (none / 0) (#129)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:11 PM EST
    I was just saying that I believe the Obama campaign tactic is not to avoid it altogether, but delay for as long as possible before agreeing. I think if they do stall all the way they may create a problem for his own nomination.

    Parent
    This is exactly (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by mm on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:27:36 PM EST
    my suspicion.  Even the Obama camp knows that a 50/50 split is an insult to our intelligence.  No one could seriously propose that with a straight face.  They're just throwing that argument out there to give the illusion that they are bargaining in good faith.  They know that this is not a serious proposal.

    In the coming weeks before PA we will see a growing chorus of Obama surrogates helped by the MSM pushing for Clinton to drop out and in the meantime they will be continually picking up superdelegates.  When their SD total reaches critical mass, Obama will generously agree to seating the FL and MI delegates as is.

    Parent

    Any opinion as to whether FL can (none / 0) (#44)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:27 AM EST
    decertify the Electoral delegation if the FL votes are not counted, one way or another?


    Sure they can (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:39:36 AM EST
    Remember Bush v. Gore?

    Parent
    Well, can this do this for one party only? (none / 0) (#51)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:41:28 AM EST
    Wouldn't they have to deny the delegates to both candidates?

    Parent
    Half of GOP delegates will be seated (none / 0) (#192)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:18:44 PM EST
    so it's a different situation that could exempt the GOP from a penalty that could be put on the Dems.

    Parent
    BTW if the DOJ gets involved will (none / 0) (#50)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:41:09 AM EST
    we get Water-boarded ?

    What this really means (none / 0) (#52)
    by AF on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    Is that the Obama camp is concerned about underrepresentation of the black vote.

    Um (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:52 AM EST
    Ok. You go with that. I t is better than they get NO representation due to concerns about UNDER representation.

    Good idea.

    Parent

    Just like the bankruptcy bill!! (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:10:05 PM EST
    Ok. You go with that. I t is better than they get NO representation due to concerns about UNDER representation.

    Obama voted against the bill because the 30% cap was too high!

    Parent

    Slow down (none / 0) (#135)
    by AF on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:15:44 PM EST
    I did not say that it is better a revote not happen and neither did the Obama campaign.

    Concerns about the logistics of the revote are legitimate.  People on both sides of the aisle have them.  But for some reason whenever the Obama campaign raises them, it's because of some nefarious intent.

    This is precisely what Krugma called the Clinton rules, applied to Obama.

    Parent

    why? (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    Because that's what they said (none / 0) (#137)
    by AF on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:16:55 PM EST
    A DOJ investigation would be for compliance with the Voting Rights Act with respect to race.

    Parent
    AF (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:16:12 PM EST
    Did the   Obama  campaign  say  the  same  about the  Hispanic vote  in   Texas?  

    Or  is  their  concern   ONLY  for  the  AA  vote,   to whip  up   more  anger?

    Parent

    bull! he is concerned about himself and (4.75 / 4) (#94)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:55:58 AM EST
    only himself!

    Parent
    I thought this wasn't about race? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:53 AM EST
    it wasn't and shouldn't be. (none / 0) (#126)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:10:11 PM EST
    but since south carolina, that card is played when convenient.

    Parent
    So many concerns (none / 0) (#71)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:48:51 AM EST
    So few solutions.

    Parent
    Actually, that's Wasserman-Schultz's argument. (none / 0) (#110)
    by tbetz on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:02:05 PM EST
    Just to keep the record straight.

    Parent
    No I am not surprised (none / 0) (#81)
    by hillaryisbest on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:03 AM EST
    at all that the Obama camp has taken this tact.  Not suprised at all.

    Obama missed his moment of opportunity (none / 0) (#142)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:22:19 PM EST
    My opinion only... but based on personal spiritual beliefs, past observations of life, etc:

    This mess that Obama and the DNC find themselves in seems to be a consequence of having failed to put Clinton away on 3 separate ocassions when he had the chance and all the momentum.  As they say, 3rd time is the lucky charm... except when it isn't and then things usually turn very ugly for the person who didn't seize the opportunity.

    I've seen it happen in poker, in sports, in romance, in the business world, and in politics.

    In essence, it is a fairly consistent Karmic justice that is sewn into the fabric of life.  I do believe this.

    Obama "should have" closed the deal on March 4th.  He was very very close.  But no cigar.

    well there is that. and i won't deny (none / 0) (#201)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:58:45 PM EST
    what goes around comes around. in simple terms, it is getting stale and old. and this constant crying about race and being the victim is turning into yawn time.

    Parent
    Heck I'm getting to the Point I don't care (none / 0) (#152)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:39:43 PM EST
    and I guess they don't care either.

    When you do care though (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:57:34 PM EST
    Who will you care about after you are done caring about you?

    Parent
    What do you think are the chances of (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:12:19 PM EST
    Fl going Democrat if this continues?  Come Nov I know where I'm voting but that don't mean many will either not vote or those that were undecided might decide for the wrong candidate. This whole mess has been wrought by underhanded actions by people who's motivation had nothing to do with the interest of the party or the voters.  When I say I may not care I mean Que Sera Sera let it be I'll just do what needs to be done on my part.  But no one if it's not the Clinton Campaign is going to see a penny from me at this time.

    Parent
    Maybe That Is What They Are Counting On (none / 0) (#158)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:01:26 PM EST
    That it will become so much trouble that the voters won't care if their vote is counted or not.

    Parent
    Is this true? (none / 0) (#157)
    by halstoon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:01:25 PM EST

    1. The supermajority of the Florida House Democrats (including its chairman Alcee Hastings), who released a statement yesterday opposing the mail-in vote, are Clinton supporters.

    2. One of the most voiciferous opponents of any re-vote (see last Sunday's "Fox News Sunday" appearance for proof) is Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, who is, like Alcee Hastings, a Clinton campign National Co-Chair.


    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:09:01 PM EST
    Most of the UNANIMOUS bloc of Florida legislators are Clinton supporters.

    Now, if you want to advance the theory that all these people just do the bidding of their favorite campaign, as opposed to, say, advancing their own interests as Members of Congress, you're going to run into a problem in explaining how Clinton and Obama supporters are taking the same position on this one.  It's a zero-sum game, after all.

    Parent

    That is not what I wish to advance. (none / 0) (#174)
    by halstoon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:56:17 PM EST
    I just want to advance the line that Obama supporters might have some self-interest involved, as you say, or that both camps are unddermining things in their own way.

    Either way, the only thing I wish to advance is that neither campaign has the higher ground on this issue.

    Parent

    Those Florida House Dems (none / 0) (#167)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:21:24 PM EST
    want  the   ORIGINAL   vote  honored,  and  the  delegates  seated   as   they  were  THEN.

    Dean  has  already  said  no,   but  he  WILL  support   a   mail-in  revote.  

    Given  that   Obama  has  already   publicly said  he will  support  the  DNC  choice,  I don't see  that  he  has  any other  choice  but  to support   the   Dean-approved  choice.  

    Unless  he  wants  to  be   called  a  waffler,  a  flip-flopper,   or  a    liar.  

    Parent

    Oh, I see you forced yourself (none / 0) (#175)
    by halstoon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:58:28 PM EST
    to read one my posts. How big of you.

    So is this an example of one of your rationalizations in which you smear Obama while promoting Clinton, thus making any argument not supportive of your own appear insignificant?

    You did a good job. Congrats!

    Parent

    This response (none / 0) (#196)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:22:35 PM EST
    is   to   Steve,  thank you  very much.

    Parent
    Ok included the orginal (none / 0) (#168)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:23:18 PM EST
    disenfranchisement as well, the NAACP believed that that act alone disfranchises minority voter.  Here what you have a pattern of the say and do anything but more overtly the nod and the wink.

    Salt (none / 0) (#197)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:23:32 PM EST
    Sounds  like   the ole   okey-doke    hoodwink,  to me.  

    Parent
    Niether campaign has put principle first (none / 0) (#173)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:43:22 PM EST
    To my mind, Clintion's insistence that the delegates be counted as is is not acceptable, after the nominees were instructed not to campaign there, and voters were told their votes wouldn't count. On the other hand, disenfranchising in Florida and Michigan voters ought to be out of the question as well; a re-vote is the only reasonable solution.

    Both candidates are taking exactly the position you would expect given their self interest, so I'm not really impressed with either one. Still, that's to be expected; I hope the DNC and the state Democrats can craft a solution.

    Small Corrections (none / 0) (#176)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:00:22 PM EST
    The nominees weren't instructed not to campaign here. They chose not to campaign. They chose to sign a pledge to the Dem leaders of 4 other states to not campaign. They didn't have to sign the pledge. They chose to.

    Also, Clinton is currently saying either count as is or revote.

    Parent

    Judging from the comments on this (none / 0) (#178)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:11:12 PM EST
    thread, Obama is scared, stupid, selfish, weak and diabolical.

    I'm amazed that so many people have the power to peer into the minds of others.  It's like Bush's ability to know that the heart of Putin is good by looking into his eyes.

    Before we ascribe nobel or evil intentions to either candidate, ask yourself if you think the candidates would adopt the tactics of the other if the situation were reversed.

    Personally, I think they would.

    No one was crying over the disenfranchisement of MI and FL until it became an issue.

    You could argue that the uncertainty of the FL and MI delegates is the only reason Clinton can carry on her campaign.  I will argue, cynically, that the potential for delegates (not actually winning the delegates) is what drives Clinton.

    See, I can read minds just as easily as many of you.

    Rasmussen came out with polls last week showing MI deadlocked and Clinton with a 16 point lead in FL.  So split Michigan's 156 delegates between the two and give Clinton 121 delegates to Obama's 89 from Florida (though the final distribution would likely be closer).

    Winning the actually delegates is nearly as helpful to Clinton as having these delegates up in the air.

    It gives her legitimacy in arguing that she and her supporters are being victimized.  It allows her to go after S-Ds and carry the fight to the convention.

    If you hold the revote, her argument is weakened and she has to face the daunting, but more clear-cut delegate math.

    For Obama, he probably just wants the elections finalized after most of the other races are over so they don't matter much.

    Let's not paint these candidates as devils or saints, but as real people putting everything they've got into being the nominee and becoming President.

    Hard to tell (none / 0) (#198)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:26:14 PM EST
    what  Obama  wants.   He  changes  day to  day.  

    First, he  said  he  would  abide  by  the  DNC  decision.    
    Then when  Dean approved  a  mail-in,  Obama  came up   with  DOJ  nonsense   and   claimed   AA's  would  be  disenfranchised.  
    Quite  the   game  Obama's  playing.

    Parent

    The mail in votes (none / 0) (#180)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:28:04 PM EST
    will be counted like absentee ballots.  Meaning of course every signature will have to be validated.  That will take days if not weeks to check signatures if over 1,700,000 vote again. Also, hundreds of people will be needed to volunteer or be hired to count and check the signatures....people who have never done this before.

    Not insignificant is the cooperation of the USPS to get ballots out on time and to the correct addresses
    and allowing time for snowbirds to get ballots if they have already left the state.

    Just a simple revote

    what I find Ironic is that every-time the (none / 0) (#186)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:40:49 PM EST
    Republicans want to pass laws requiring Orwellian ID processes they site the possibility of voter fraud as the reason they are doing it.  The Democrats invariably respond that this is another attempt of voter disenfranchisement and that there is no wide spread voter fraud.  I happen to agree with the Democrats any attempt to limit voter participation by making it harder to or limiting somehow the exercise of their right to vote is disenfranchisement of the voters.  Now I hear some people raising the possibility that mail vote may lead to fraud, or that it may benefit one group over the other.  I have no idea of how the demographics break in Michigan but here in Florida the people who may not have easy access to a mailbox are about equally divided by race their common factor being they live in the woods somewhere.  That they may not be living here any longer or gone home for the summer not a race or sex thing either.  So about the only way you can really disenfranchise voters here in Florida in these primaries IMO is by not counting their votes.

    Clinton said count the ones already voted or re-vote.
    Obama said he would go along with what the DNC agrees to do.
    The FDC has suggested a mail-in vote.
    Where is the DNC on this at the moment?
    I think the ball is on their court.

    If Obama does this . . . (none / 0) (#193)
    by Doc Rock on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:39:14 PM EST
    . . . the Democrats may face a write-in vote campaign in states where that is allowed.