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Double Standards Again

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

The most galling aspect of what I have seen happen to the so-called progressive blogs is the shameless hypocrisy. More . . .

Take for instance, the outrage expressed here about this post It so happens I disagree with the criticized post. But let us give Jeralyn credit, she does not complain when people like Willis do the same thing in reverse. Indeed, she disagreed with my complaint about Obama bloggers support of the outrageous "Gore-ing" of Hillary Clinton. Of course I do complain about such blogging. And I condemn it when it is done by Clinton bloggers as well.

An old blogging friend of mine expresses outrage about the blog post. Of course, worse attacks on Clinton by Obama bloggers are fair and right to my old blogging friend.

The hypocrisy is what I can not take. I criticize it all. I disagree with Jeralyn's post. But I do not disagree with her intellectual consistency. She does not condemn it when done to Hillary Clinton by Obama bloggers. Most Obama and Clinton bloggers demonstrate a double standard (of course there are many more Obama bloggers than Clinton bloggers). Would that all of the "progressive" blogosphere could demonstrate the same intellectual integrity and consistency as Jeralyn.

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    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:42:04 AM EST
    I'm not sure how you could disagree with Jeralyn's post, since she didn't condemn the stage management, she only made the point that there would be a huge brouhaha if Clinton people were similarly ham-handed.  I don't see how that's even controversial.  The entire rec list at Daily Kos would be full of acid diaries talking about how Hillary needs to put "token" blacks front and center.

    That is a fair point (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:43:46 AM EST
    buuuut I think Jeralyn was ill advised to blog about it.

    Parent
    Why "ill advised"? (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:41:24 AM EST
    Because it's not appropriate to call b** s** any more?

    If Clinton had done the same thing, the rec list over at The Obama 527 Formerly Known As The Kos Community would have been full of nothing else for days.

    Stuck pig squeals, say I.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by tree on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:05:41 AM EST
    and think that the point of Jeralyn's post was to illustrate that Obama's campaign, despite the protestations of many naive Obama backers, is just the usual politics.

      I don't read Willis,or at least I haven't in a long long time, so I can't speak about whether he's bing hypocritical here. I do know that he's being dishonest. Neither Jeralyn, nor any of the posters on her comment was "shocked" by the rearranging of seats. Politics as usual, we all understand that. Its the hypocrisy in how its covered that was the overarching point. Normal political moves, or even normal human failings are only considered nefarious when they are committed by Clinton, and manufactured outrage follows. Obama or McCain make the same kind of moves or gaffes, and the silence is deafening. Frankly I prefer the silence to the faux outrage: I just wish that everyone was held to the same standard.    

    Parent

    True, most of us weren't shocked... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:25:47 PM EST
    ...we were amused, but to post about that would be tantamount to admitting that we have a sense of humor, something I'm sure Obama bloggers would rather not do.

    Parent
    MSM that slammed HRC for less should answer here (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ellie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:37:31 AM EST
    Really. They went after Sen. Clinton in force merely for taking a softly worded question. Their starting point was to act as if it was on her to make herself look as bad as possible; a ridiculous expectation.

    The same phonies should measure this Obama story and address it using the same bar. No fair now for them suddenly to adopt the posture that, Oh please, everyone does this, it's so routine, blah blah blah.

    I mean, they were in a state because she wasn't actively punching herself out at the mic -- something no politician ever has been expected to do.

    Parent

    I think one reason (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:50:21 AM EST
    that Clintonites discuss Obama's political tactics is that he claims to be new and different and not a regular politician.

    We are pointing out that his claims do not ring true. I think it's important to show this, especially since he has been impugning Clinton's character and judgment since the beginning of his campaign.

    I had an extended argument with (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:43:03 PM EST
    my dentist last Saturday (in between dental procedures) because he thinks Obama is "beyond partisan politics."  I pointed out several instances of Obama engaging in partisan politics, and he got very defensive: "Are you saying he's just like Clinton?"  I said, "I'm just saying he's a politician. It's a fact, not an accusation."

    My dentist was only partially mollified. But since he was about to put a sharp metal instrument in my mouth, I decided to change the subject.  

    Parent

    A wise decision. (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:32:48 PM EST
    Never antagonize your dentist! :-)

    On topic - yes, that is the whole point. Obama has convinced some people to vote for him instead of Hillary because he supposedly practices a new kind of politics that are postpartisan. I think it is perfectly fair to attempt to debunk that myth.

    Parent

    I know everyone's all up in arms about this or (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by gish720 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:01:03 AM EST
    that...I guess Jeralyn's blog regarding the white people got to that blogger.  It must've or he/she would've let it pass. The blogger sounds kinda touchy about it. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Clinton campaign was caught red handed doing this stuff, as I'm sure they do, I've noticed that a lot of young people surround her at times and sure it looks like it was no doubt planned out.  But when you hear the actual words and plus Obama sort of comes off as ABOVE mere politics...the target is too big so it's hard not to chuckle a tad. It's small potatoes and everyone who was commenting knew that.

    Planned Out (none / 0) (#59)
    by 1jane on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:30:06 AM EST
    Yeah, I watched how they stage managed President Clinton's vist. The crowd was moved up in the gym to fill the first half of the gym, then roped off to make it appear on camera the gym was packed. When Obama came to town the backdrop was children who arrived early from a sports club, then anyone else who wanted to sit behind him.

    The point is both campaigns stage manage their appearances and it's no big deal.

    Parent

    That IS the point (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:32:15 AM EST
    And willis and others were all "outrage" about that when it was clinton.

    Parent
    You Just Made That Up (none / 0) (#112)
    by Oliver Willis on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:10:15 PM EST
    I expressed no such outrage. I'm not a naive country bumpkin. I know that political campaigns are largely stage managed. In fact at the 2007 DNC winter meeting I wrote up praise for Sen. Clinton because I felt her campaign folks had done excellent stage management.

    Parent
    May I ask why you characterized (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by tree on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:51:33 PM EST
    Jeralyn's post and the comments here as being "shocked" about the seating rearrangement? Because no one here expressed any kind of shock. Most of the comments were along the line of how this is standard political operating procedures. The point that seems to keep getting lost is that many Obama supporters seem to think that the Obama is some kind of "new" politician what wouldn't do such things.

    There was no outrage here. Why did you get outraged? Is it somehow declasse to point out that Obama is in fact a typical politician after all?

    Parent

    one other general request (none / 0) (#120)
    by tree on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:32:29 PM EST
    Oliver, if a blogger comes here to defend the point of their post, I respect that and consider that laudable, but if all you are going to do is make a comment and not engage in conversation what really is the point? Drive-by comments don't help the dialog at all. I'll cut you some slack on this one, maybe you are busy right now, but in the future if you don't want to stick around and answer legitimate questions, don't assume that we aren't going to take your lack of engagement as an indicator of emptiness of your argument.

    Parent
    Oh please. (none / 0) (#122)
    by Oliver Willis on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:39:29 PM EST
    Please look up Casablanca.

    Parent
    Thanks for the repeat drive-by and non-answer (none / 0) (#123)
    by tree on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:40:17 AM EST
    Obviously you've got nothing of substance to add. Duly noted.

    Parent
    It is true that we ... (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:12:50 AM EST
    often attack the things we're afraid we are.

    Obama bloggers regularly attack Clinton's "win at any cost strategy," when it seems clear they are employing just such a strategy.

    This bothers me more than the hypocrisy, which is pretty much a given in politics.  It's all part of turning politics into a sporting event.  And if you've ever played any organized sports, you know that no team ever claims the other team was unfairly fouled.

    And that's my sports metaphor for the year.  Enjoy it while you can.

    except ... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by dws3665 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:12:00 PM EST
    that I actually believe the Obama bloggers lack enough insight into their own behavior to recognize that that's what they're doing. They are fueled by some sense of hatred or misattributed moral indignation, and I honestly think they just. do. not. get it. I mean, these are not dumb people, and I don't think they are characterologically hypocrites. They are, however, blind to their own biases in ways that produce the kind of embarrassing hypocrisy that BTD is describing here.

    Parent
    But the results are the same ... (none / 0) (#116)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:26:19 PM EST
    whether they're aware of it or not.

    Parent
    Outrage to the left and (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:19:28 AM EST
    outrage to the right and hypocrisy all around. I can appreciate people being supportive of their candidate. What I can't understand is being so supportive of your candidate that you find excuses for him/her that make you compromise your principals.

    I have a lot of concerns with either of the candidates but ended up choosing Hillary because I find her a hard-working, extremely smart, pragmatist. I don't like nor want ideologues running things. They find ways to justify the means to get their end that frighten me.

    I've heard too many empty promises from too many candidates over the years to believe ANY of them.

     Remember the rhetoric before the 2006 elections? We listened, we voted for them and the incompetent and/or corrupt people we elected to end the war have continued to fund it every time it came up for a vote. And that includes Obama and Clinton. Now they want our vote again because this time, really, this time they'll finally end the war. At least McCain is honest about it.

    But the deal-breaker for me is the FL and MI mess. I cannot, I will not support or vote for a candidate that disenfranchises voters. There are some stenches that even a well held nose won't cover.

     

    News here is Obama's playing his own followers (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Ellie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:21:01 AM EST
    One of his fans posted at TL that s/he liked how Obama said "we" when talking about what they'd do in the campaign -- and when taking office -- in contrast to Sen. Clinton saying "I" during a speech, and the newfound fan liked that.

    Well fine, that's a minor distinction that I wouldn't necessarily base my support on, except for all the fawning, Dem-insider support and donations the campaign is extracting based on attracting college students.

    That's been a huge selling point Obama's been using for himself and Obama's holding the college vote up too to propel him forward as the candidate for the future.

    Aside from the outcry the campaign leveled at Sen. Clinton (and the MSM ran with that) merely for taking a softly worded question, they need to apply the same standard to the worse "outrage" of Michelle Obama plucks Asian-Americans and African-Americans literally out of the picture. (I'm not shocked by stage-managing, but Team Obama's eating a lot of lunch off this and can't have his cake and eat it too here.)

    BTW, BTD: I'm not a poll cruncher, but maybe you could keep an eye on this: I was interested to note an analysis point about the softening of the vaunted support among college students, youth vote generally and "Academics" categories in showings to date. One story about the PA turnout noted that registration among students was "enh", as well as the reality that a lot of students are from -- and vote -- elsewhere. I was wondering whether from hereon out these voters are being counted twice because of this, and how that be interpreted as slowing momentum.

    based on answer received (none / 0) (#65)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:35:37 AM EST
    from David Yepsen, guru of Iowa caucuses - there is no way to know if Iowa students caucused and later voted in their home states.


    Parent
    I read Jeralyns post (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by Jgarza on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:32:45 AM EST
    I chose not to comment, because I respect Jeralyn.  I will say it left a really bad taste in my mouth and i had nothing nice to say about it.  I really don't see what the "double standard" is.  There have been a few posts here that i thought were out of line. At this point,  i figure it's a tough primary battle, it happens, peoples emotions get the best of them, but most other bloggers never mentioned them.

    BTD you consistently "call out," what you call mainstream bloggers, an odd characterization since i would put you and Jeralyn in that category.  Sometimes i think it is much about nothing, sometimes i think rightfully (as in Josh Marshall's castration  reference).  I just really don't see how you can call people "calling out" this blog a double standard, since you do it to other bloggers.

    Double standards (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:38:20 AM EST
    There is a double standard that is rather elusive.  It goes something like this.  If Hillary and her campaign bring up an Obama negative it's not good for the party, cause of course he will be the nominee and we have to protect him during the primary season.

    This protection is not available to Hillary.  They throw all the accusations of lying, etc. etc.  it's ok, and somehow that is not going to hurt her.  Which makes the point that Obama is a weak candidate, and Hillary can handle the kitchen sink.  

    This one is usually combined with the she cannot win cause the polls say she has lots of negatives, but the polls that show Obama cannot get the white vote, somehow don't count.  

    I am sure it's all politics and I probably do some of those contortions but these are two that seem rather obvious.  

    If this is OT you may delete, but I think it fits the double standard.  

    Leave Britneybamaaaa alonnnnnne! ::snivel:: (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Ellie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:45:56 AM EST
    Really, once I rehook the webcam and go through my sext caffeine-related crying jag that's going up on YouTube.

    Parent
    BTD - I read OW's comments (none / 0) (#1)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:29:54 AM EST
    on Jeralyn's post . . . and I really don't see how it can be characterised as "outrage".  It seems more like sarcasm to me.

    Sarcasm or outrage (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:33:49 AM EST
    Well, I disagree with you. But it is a red herring. Do you care to comment on willis' shameless hypocrisy?

    Of course not. this is par for the blogosphere course these days. Straw men and red herrings. Never honest intellectual engagement.

    What a wasteland we have become.

    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#2)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    I'm still waiting for you to remove the hypocrisy from your own eye.    You said you'd be shocked and would blog about it Mark Penn still had a role in the Clinton campaign.  It's being reported nearly everywhere else that this is just the case.  This latest misrepresentation is, unlike the other ones, actually important.

    I am investigating (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:35:01 AM EST
    the story. When I have all  the facts, I will be posting on it. I do not rip our candidates lightly. I want to know the facts first. Try it some time.

    Parent
    Cheap Shot (none / 0) (#17)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:49:37 AM EST
    I too am interested in all the facts, which is one reason I come to your website.  I appreciate you responding to your commenters as well.  Thanks for your hard work; keep it up!

    Parent
    Excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:06:16 AM EST
    After your FIRST comment, you are calling cheap shot ON ME!!!

    How appropriate. shameless hypocrisy is unbound. Thank you for making my point so well.

    Parent

    Shameless? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:21:03 AM EST
    "Shameless hypocrisy"?  That's a bit of a stretch.  Rather than addressing whether you actually had made a "cheap shot", you just impugned my ability to make that claim based on something else.

    Is this the sort of reasonable dialogue you aspire to?

    In anycase, I do appreciate the civility on this site in general.

    Parent
    I think there are bigger issue that I would (none / 0) (#60)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:31:19 AM EST
    rather prefer BTD to cover than Penn.. esp. given that he has had more than a couple of Anit-Penn posts posted here and given everyone here opportunity to know Penn off..!! .. [contrast that to what the other media did when Obama's advisers who were "representing" his thoughts had to say... and how every one was trying to cover that up!!]

    I did not like BTD's calling MPenn to resign for what he did not even represent Clinton.. but BTD has been categorically critical of HIM..

    I just fail to understand how you call that language on BTD

    Parent

    Simple (none / 0) (#76)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:46:25 AM EST
    He said he would cover it; he hasn't.

    As far as the Goolsbee-Penn comparison goes, it's a matter of degrees.  Penn was paid (millions, in fact) by both the Clinton campaign and Colombia.  Goolsbee was paid by neither.  So in terms of professional conflict of interest standards, one is worse than the other.  

    Parent
    Goolsbee was speaking for Obama (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:52:45 AM EST
    Penn wasn't speaking for Clinton.  That's the primary difference you and the pro-Obama bloggers/media seem unwilling to recognize.


    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#91)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:18:48 PM EST
    You have no way of verifying that statement, yet you treat it as fact.  You also have no way of verifying what Goolsbee said to the Canadians, yet you treat it as fact.  What we do know is that Penn was paid by both a pro-FTA government and an anti-FTA candidate--that is a conflict of interest that would have any lawyer disbarred.  Period.

    Parent
    Uh (none / 0) (#95)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:26:12 PM EST
    I'm a lawyer and your comment makes no sense.

    Parent
    What about it doesn't make sense? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:31:51 PM EST
    Mark Penn engaged in a blatant conflict of interest.  There are no ethics rules for the PR industry as there is no oversight body--I'm making an analogy.  Are you defending Penn's actions?  Do you disagree that it wasn't a conflict of interest?  Seems to me to b a slam-dunk case.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#108)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:44:20 PM EST
    It was a scummy thing to do and Mark Penn is a scummy guy, but I don't agree that there's any conflict of interest.  As a lawyer I perpetually have clients whose business interests are at odds with one another.

    If two clients were paying Penn to accomplish opposing policy goals, that would be a conflict of interest.  But Hillary was paying him for strategic advice in her election campaign, she wasn't paying him to oppose the Colombia FTA.  And from Colombia's perspective, they can hardly expect Penn's firm to refrain from all activities that might help anti-FTA candidates get elected, the conflict of interest principles simply don't stretch that far.  Of course Colombia is free to fire the guy for compromised loyalties at any time, but I don't agree that a hypothetical oversight body would have a problem with this.

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#118)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:48:50 PM EST
    maybe I'm being too gung-ho.  I'm in Legal Ethics class and studying for the MPRE right now.  But I do see an analogy.  In anycase, it's not worth defending him.  Not sure why any waste their breath on that guy.

    Parent
    This is off topic so i question responding (none / 0) (#106)
    by Jgarza on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:21:28 PM EST
    but two points:
    Obama took a hit for Goolsbee, it is part of the reason the polls broke for Hillary the days before the Texas and Ohio primary.

    Second point:

    Penn wasn't speaking for Clinton.

    There are reports that the Columbian government didn't know who he was representing, his firm on the Clinton Campaign.  Second even if it was clear he wasn't speaking for the Clinton camp, he top strategist for a campaign hat opposes this deal, and at the same time is hired by Columbia to get it passed.  I don't want to pile on, but this was a big blunder.

    Parent

    Wow, that convinces us here that you are right!! (none / 0) (#3)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:33:14 AM EST
    It's being reported nearly everywhere else that this is just the case.


    I do not follow (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:35:47 AM EST
    Is this in the wrong thread?

    Parent
    Looks like it was intended (none / 0) (#8)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:37:03 AM EST
    as a reply to Deadalus.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:39:45 AM EST
    Sometimes they just have a mind of their own.

    Parent
    That's not the reason it's true (none / 0) (#19)
    by Deadalus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:50:51 AM EST
    Stella....it's just a reason why BTD should also be reporting on it.  If you need proof, there is audio out there of Penn on a conference call, several of them, after he was fired.  There is also video of Clinton equivocating to reporters on what his new role is.

    Parent
    What's next? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:43:36 AM EST
    Bush lines up smiling soldiers behind him for as long as he could get away with it or find so many medicated soldiers and I never thought that was okay.  I thought it was horrible as they gave away those seats as soldier awards....like a soldier is going to frown being awarded the spot.  Now the Obamas are lining up smiling white people and that's just fine huh?  I can't put my finger on it exactly but it feels like much more of a slap in the face to us all.  And what is up with that "pretty" thing, that's gross!

    this is politics (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:45:02 AM EST
    Nothing new, nor were "planted questions" new when Willis and his fellow A-Listers were outraged about that.

    See, I am criticizing the shameless hypocrisy.

    Parent

    It creeps me out (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:49:05 AM EST
    I can't imagine being asked to move because I wasn't white enough.

    Parent
    Really? How 19th Century (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:58:24 AM EST
    It has been a fact of life since photography was invented. Before that no one needed to be moved because anyone could be painted in or out.

    Parent
    I guess I've led a sheltered life (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:06:40 AM EST
    I've always been white enough.

    Parent
    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:17:52 AM EST
    I am whiter than white myself, although many people think I am Hispanic. It's funny when people come up to me on the street and start speaking Spanish to me, since I only speak French and English. I feel bad that I can't help them. ;-)

    Parent
    I See (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:22:09 AM EST
    Obviously I missed your usual touch of irony.... Not enough coffee in me...

    Thanks for beating me over the head with it, though.

    Parent

    Ugh. (none / 0) (#83)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:56:02 AM EST
    Try to paint your candidate as anything but a hypocrite and you will turn into one.  

    Of course, it's unfortunate that painting the OTHER candidate as a hypocrite still works and can be a successful electoral strategy.  I guess that's where some bloggers are coming from.

    But there are better things to talk about.

    I personally thought Jeralyn's post was an interesting one on the peculiarities of image management during this race.  Post-identity politics my $$$.  We can file her post away in a folder with other posts, like the Obama criticism of Clinton visiting Latino homes.  I think you could incorporate it into a critique of the post identity politics narrative the Obama team pushes.  It's typical campaign stuff to stack the televised backdrop with whomever you want.  But identity politics is typical campaign stuff too.  So...

    Parent

    They all do it (none / 0) (#89)
    by wasabi on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:06:42 PM EST
    I distinctly remember after Iowa or NH that Clinton gave a speech or rally where she had Madaline Albright and several other seasoned officials standing behind her.  She was critized by the bloggers (and mentioned by the MSM) for the image of "old" vs. "youth" support that is seen in Obama events.  The next campaign event had her in front of a group of college aged men and women.

    They all do it.  Image is everything.  We should not be suprised by either campaign as they are both pols.  Nothing new and shiny here.  They are pols.

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#22)
    by blogtopus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    Of all the recent posts on TalkLeft, Willis moves against just that one? He had a whole selection of stuff to be 'outraged' about, but chose the easiest, low hanging fruit that he, as a black man who blogs, feels he can impugn without addressing the actual issue. It isn't about the RACE, Oliver, it's the DOUBLE STANDARDS.

    I still like Odub, though; I love his dog and he's got a wicked sense of humor.

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:03:12 AM EST
    WTF does Willis' race have to do with this? I find your comment offensive frankly.


    Parent
    Sorry BTD (none / 0) (#40)
    by blogtopus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:14:31 AM EST
    Offensive or not, the fact is that I feel free to say things about my demographic that others would not for fear of being called racist/classist/sexist/what have you.

    If I put it in an offensive way, I apologize for my uncouth manner.

    Parent

    No double-standards, (none / 0) (#25)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:58:07 AM EST
    no blogosphere.

    I agree that opinionated debate should be civil and focussed on the issues. And, despite rampant and gratuitous character-assasination, hypocrisy, and way too much moralizing, a lot of substantive debates are going on all over the b-sphere.

    But outrage brings traffic, and Talk Left is no exception. I include myself in this, since here I am, verging on some outrage and writing about it.

    Um (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:00:18 AM EST
    Not sure what you are outraged about.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:02:35 AM EST
    No Quarter is not what I like for the most part, though the piece on Bachtel was amazingly good.

    Taylor Marsh is a friend of the blog and I have criticized her in comments. But I respect the blog proprietor's views. what I like about Taylor over the others though is that she is unabashed and open about her blatant partisanship.

    I think she goes too far even in that role, but she is eminently more intellectually honest about all this than most.

    No (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:11:32 AM EST
    I have nothing but kind words to say about Corrente.

    Parent
    If you can't criticize Marsh (none / 0) (#64)
    by digdugboy on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:34:40 AM EST
    as openly as you criticize Willis, you're hardly in a position to complain when others display what you perceive to be a double standard.

    Parent
    Uh oh.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:44:42 AM EST
    I must be getting too Civil. Gotta watch that.

    Seriously, we have a mixture of serious analytical work (IMMSHO) and high octane invective, and the two reinforce each other. That makes it easy for newbies to lose their footing (or trolls) but those who engage will find us rewarding.

    Parent

    Poor people will die (none / 0) (#74)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    without universal health care. Right?

    Parent
    So Will The Rich (none / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:49:03 AM EST
    just saying.... It is a fact of life.

    Parent
    That makes no sense at all. (none / 0) (#80)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:52:52 AM EST
    There is a regular commenter here who is a woman, 60-ish, in remission from cancer. She's all tapped out and if she gets cancer again, she will not be able to pay for care.
    The consequences of this election for her are potentially life and death. I know Hillary understands the stakes in the battle to achieve universal coverage. Obama?  Please----he's all about telling the young people they don't need to pay for the old sick people.
    Ugh.

    Parent
    Is She Poor (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:19:49 PM EST
    Or rich? That is the question.

    Besides my snark was more to the point that everyone is going to die, regardless of their status. Also, to suggest that if Clinton were elected her health care plan would automatically go into effect is just as silly as claiming that Obama's health care plan would be law if he was elected.

    But if I were forced to bet on a health care plan passing in Congress I would bet on Obama's, not that I believe that will pass either.

    What would I like, a plan that covers everyone as a right, like most of the civilized world. That plan is not on the table.

    Parent

    Since we're all gonna die (none / 0) (#90)
    by tree on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:16:48 PM EST
    anyway, why bother with health care? Is that your argument? SH**! Hey, why bother with anything in that case? Why even have an election? Maybe we can just let Bush be President for Life, and the rest of us can all curl up in the fetal position waiting for death. It may be the one thing that Bush has been able to deliver.

    Parent
    A Serious Question for Moopsy. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:26:10 PM EST
    Why are you here?  What do you hope to contribute to the discussion?  Do you think you are an accurate representative of an Obama Supporter?

    Inquiring mind wants to know!

    Parent

    Moopsy was previously banned as JJE (none / 0) (#98)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:34:15 PM EST
    I'm getting around to banning him/her. Once banned, you cannot come back under another name.

    Parent
    Moopsy is gone (none / 0) (#99)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:35:51 PM EST
    and all 101 comments erased.

    Parent
    Good. (none / 0) (#100)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:38:43 PM EST
    That freed up a lot of oxygen!

    Parent
    No pretense (none / 0) (#48)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:20:29 AM EST
    I go there knowing what to expect, there is no pretense.  

    Parent
    Ironic (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:04:49 AM EST
    Do you have any instance of Willis outrage to compare this too? The red herring business is what some of you are in in this thread.

    I won't bite. Nothing to say about his shameless hypocrisy?

    This comment is what is wrong with the bogs today - no real intellectual engagemnt. Obfuscation and deflection is the order of the day.

    I just deleted a lot of comment (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:15:15 AM EST
    Who can guess why?

    Guessing.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:19:15 AM EST
    It starts with an "H" ... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:20:41 AM EST
    and it ends with a "crisy."

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:31:32 AM EST
    Off topic.

    Parent
    Moi? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:26:20 AM EST
    Why I am outraged.  It took me years to develop it !  

    Parent
    Looks like I made the cut (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by blogtopus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:29:08 AM EST
    I stretched BTD's limits a bit but I'm glad I'm still here. :-P

    Parent
    in the meantime... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:16:49 AM EST
    there are 2 stories re accusations of "racism" --
    The Tiger Woods "slur" and the "monkeys" comment that resulted in Obama asking a delegate to be removed.
    Obama and his supporters are seeking a national dialogue on race - but what are the rules and guidelines for "racist" comments?

    Will the Obama police be encouraged to catch these "racists"?
    These are indeed slippery slope and scary times.

    River Daughter - Monkeys - http://tinyurl.com/6l24vw


    Best. Comment. Ever. (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:29:37 AM EST
    When monkeys are outlawed, only outlaws will have monkeys.


    Parent
    Type A vs Type B (none / 0) (#56)
    by blogtopus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:26:25 AM EST
    I think Hillary is more of a Type A personality when it comes to leading. I mean Type A in a positive sense here, as in 'if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself' way.

    Obama is a type B personality in his role: Inspire others to do their best.

    Neither one is good or bad, but I feel it represents each somewhat fairly.

    I would agree with you (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:50:38 AM EST
    except that we've had 8 long years of Type B, and I want (gasp!) a change.  And I have no idea how inspirational Obama could be in inspiring people to actually get things done, other than magnify him, because we haven't seen any evidence of it.  At this point in our history, I don't think we can afford to have that.  I want somebody knowledgeable and determined to dig right in and FIX stuff.  I have this mental image of Hillary with her sleeves rolled up, her brow fuurowed and perspiration on her upper lip, and Obama in his nice suit gazing out the window contemplatively.

    Parent
    I want type a type N candidate.. (none / 0) (#82)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:54:01 AM EST
    Knowledgeable!


    Parent
    Civility in blogging and politics (none / 0) (#69)
    by barryluda on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    I love listening to the intelligent conversation on this blog about politics even though (probably because) I'm such a novice to both politics and blogging and clearly in the vast minority here of being an Obama fan.  I did not agree with, but did not find J's post offensive.  But it is disappointing to see how the Clinton fans and Obama fans are becoming less and less civil to one another.  It's no wonder that Dems and Repubs find it hard to deal reasonably with each other to reach compromises and actually govern and get things done when two groups who should have so much in common find it so difficult to treat one another civilly.


    About the original post. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:58:16 AM EST
    My thoughts:

    Of course everything is stage managed to perfection.  Witness Bush and his loyal, cheering crowds in 2004.

    They wanted white people?  Why?  Does it create a pleasing visual contrast or does Obama just want to eliminate any possibility of being branded as the "black candidate" as opposed to the universally generic candidate?  Are white people generic?

    Outside of that, I found less to react to than in yesterday's post about how Obama "knows" the Indonesian people from a portion of his childhood thirty years ago.  Now THAT was pretty d____d funny!  I expect politicians to pad their resumes, but that deserved the ol' Al Gore eyeroll.  

    Ah, moopsy. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:00:36 PM EST
    This is the first soon-to-be-deleted comment of yours that I've had the displeasure of reading.

    Now I know why the previous ones vanished and perhaps soon, so will you.

    I don't think... (none / 0) (#87)
    by mike in dc on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:03:14 PM EST
    ...in all honesty, that we'll get anything resembling intellectual honesty or non-disengenuousness from either faction until this nomination fight is over.  And even then, how it ends will determine how much of a sense of objectivity things will return to.

    There is no moral high ground to speak of.  Everybody has succumbed to the urge.  Even those who claim they have not.  Sometimes especially those who claim they have not.

    At the end of the day, we have two admirable candidates who have said and done some less than admirable things in the course of their campaigns.  Neither of them would be a disaster as president, in my opinion, and would each do much more good than harm for the country.  Compared to the GOP candidate, the differences on policy are fairly minor, but since the stakes are high, every subtle difference of policy, personality and campaign strategy gets amplified beyond all proportion, and every perceived blunder, slight, smear or misstatement becomes either "disastrous for candidate X" or "the reason why I can never support candidate Y".  

    Someday we will look back at all this and wonder if the whole blogosphere was replaced by Pod People for a few months.

    That's not what's being discussed. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Radix on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:44:08 PM EST
    Yes politicians are politicians, no news there. The problem for some is the unfair way the left is treating one of it's own, Clinton in this case. As BTD and Jeralyn have continuously pointed out, some blogs are simply ignoring the fact that Obama is a typical politician, while at the same time holding this against Hillary.

    Parent
    I am shocked, but not surprised if campaigns are (none / 0) (#88)
    by jerry on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:03:25 PM EST
    stagemanaging photo ops to this degree.

    It's one thing for a photographer to rearrange the subjects to account for various aesthetics including height, weight, clothing, and even gender.  It's acceptable for a campaign advertisement created in a studio to adjust the cast of actors for even more broader issues.

    It's another for a campaigner to be calling either a) we need more whites in the photo, or b) we need more blacks in the photo when this is done at a live, real life event.  That's not rearranging existing subjects, that's creating an entirely new message.

    I think that's an appalling practice that should be condemned regardless of who is doing that.

    Remember how we got pissed off with Bush for photoshopping in soldiers in a 2004 campaign ad?  It's the same thing.

    Live event: film it as is with little modification.
    Staged/studio event: cast it as you want.

    it's not the hypocrisy that bothers me (none / 0) (#103)
    by Klio on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:44:53 PM EST
    it's what the hypocrisy is hiding.  Or rather, what it's exposing.  

    The Shruggers should explain harassment of Chelsea (none / 0) (#104)
    by Ellie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:45:41 PM EST
    If window dressing and stagecraft are going to be a discussion, TeamO should independently address what's turning into a separate little pitchfork mob, at college events, going after Chelsea Clinton.

    Apparently, her "failure" to rehash the good old Lewinsky era witch hunt is becoming a feature of college appearances.

    (I have no idea about coordinating here, or from whom, but they should be disavow these sleazy tactics here as basic principle, as TeamObama has rushed to capitalize on HRC's (a) campaign "health", (b) exploited their own ability to engage a reliable new vote to the process and (c) flogged the marquee selling point of themselves as harbingers of a new post-partisan Unity with the Right Wing.)

    If this is OT driftwood, delete this and I'll repost it in an Open Thread. It just strikes me that the more desperate TeamO is becoming to seal the deal -- hold up on the last chorus of Here I am Baby, Signed Sealed Delivered, Not Yet -- the more baldly apparent the cheesy magic tricks become.

    'Other Woman' Shadows Chelsea Clinton
    By TOM DAVIES - [April 08 2008]

    INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- Chelsea Clinton is spending long days on the campaign trail telling college crowds about her mother's positions on everything from health care and student-loan costs to the Darfur crisis and gay rights.

    But there is one subject she will not discuss -- "The Other Woman."

    At least three times in the past two weeks, the former and possible future first daughter has been asked about the Monica Lewinsky scandal's influence on the presidential campaign of her mother, New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    The answer has evolved each time.

    When a student at Butler University in Indianapolis first asked the question on March 25, she drew applause and gave a short response that ended with: "I do not think that is any of your business."

    Clinton, 28, since has been less blunt, though the message is much the same.

    "I think that is something that is personal to my family, I'm sure there are things that are personal to your family that you don't think are anyone else's business, either," she said last week when asked during a visit to North Carolina State University in Raleigh. "But also on a larger point, I don't think you should vote for or against my mother because of my father."

    Many in the crowd at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind., booed Monday when a question about the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton came up. Chelsea Clinton quickly summed up her position: "If that's what you want to vote on, that's what you should vote on. But I think there are other people (who are) going to vote on things like health care and economics," she said.

    Amanda Morris, president of Purdue's Students for Hillary chapter, said Tuesday that she approved of the audience reaction and how Clinton is responding. She also expects the question might keep coming up.

    "I really think it has gotten to the point where it is the attention thing," said Morris, a sophomore from Kokomo, Ind. "At first, maybe that student really wanted to know what she thought about it. But by now it's 'Oh, that person got attention for it, I'm going to keep asking.'"

    Philippe Reines, a Clinton campaign spokesman, said Chelsea Clinton has made 99 campus appearances through Tuesday, and typically has taken 10 to 20 questions at each stop. He said the Lewinsky matter was not a burning issue among the people who have attended. [...more...]



    Check this out BTD (none / 0) (#105)
    by OxyCon on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:16:49 PM EST
    But I just wanted BTD to see these Salon.com posts from an Obama supporter named Camille Paglia.

    The first one, she calls every male around Hillary a bunch of "slick, geeky weasels or rancid, asexual cream puffs.", along with a host of other venomous bile.

    The second post of hers, she says "I believe that, because of his international heritage and upbringing, Obama is the right person at the right time."

    Now, the second one touches on the hypocrisy and double standards that is the theme of your blog posting, because we all know what happened to Geraldine Ferraro for saying similar things about BO.
    http://tinyurl.com/4xq8ec

    I wouldn't waste (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by caseyOR on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:10:20 PM EST
    my time reading reading Camille Paglia. She has been around in one form or another for quite some time. Her MO is to try to be shocking and provocative, but IMO she is often just silly.

    Parent
    I can say she is an all-around hack. It's a shame what passes for thought these days.

    Parent
    She is yet another (none / 0) (#110)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:05:59 PM EST
    woman-hating woman who bloviates on how awful women are in general. She is in the MoDo mode, but goes for a pseudo-intellectual style rather than cutesy snark.

    As such, Paglia has gained a lot of attention, but is basically offensive to most thinking people. I'm surprised Salon put her on its pages.

    Parent

    LOL, the first thing that popped into my head (none / 0) (#121)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:26:09 PM EST
    when I read,
    "slick, geeky weasels or rancid, asexual cream puffs."

    the first thing that popped into my head was, "Oh my, she just described Obama perfectly!!" Then I re-read it and realized that she wasn't talking about Obama. Ooops!!

    I just think it's funny that his supporters project his weaknesses, in my view, onto his opponents advisors. I wouldn't have been so rude in my choice of words, but the definitions would have matched pretty well.

    Parent

    Outrage? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Oliver Willis on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:07:26 PM EST
    Puh-leeze. I just thought the post was stupid. I get outraged over the war in Iraq and people who vote for it, not the latest drama the pro-Clinton blogs are dragging out.

    fine, you weren't outraged. (none / 0) (#117)
    by dws3665 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:27:50 PM EST
    But you're still missing the point about hypocrisy, and that's the problem.

    Parent
    Perhaps if Hillary (none / 0) (#113)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:10:17 PM EST
    were giving the media bosses that kind of dough, she might make it to "media darling" status.  Heck, it is no surprise media love Obama, you throw money around like that people tend to flock to you.  You get what you pay for in a capitocracy.