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NY Times on Hillary and the Blogs

The New York Times has an article on Hillary's outreach to blogs concentrating on her theory that it's the map not the math.

The “map/math” phrase quickly found its way to various blogs, including Talkleft and Riverdaughter. Some, like Jerome Armstrong on MyDD examined the “map/math” argument in detail.

Mrs. Clinton started her campaign as the candidate of the establishment. It may be a measure of how far she has come -- or fallen, in the eyes of her critics -- that she is now using the megaphone of insurgents.

Insurgents? I'm flattered, but I hardly think advocating for a mainstream candidate of one of the country's two major political parties qualifies as "insurgency."

On a lighter note, when checking the archives to see when I started focusing on Hillary as a presidential candidate, I found this post from October, 2006 speculating on a Hillary-Obama ticket. Seems I thought of Obama as the insurgent back then. More...

One of the questions I have with a Hillary Clinton candidacy is which male contender would agree to run with her in the VP slot? For John Edwards, John Kerry, and most of the other names we know, they might perceive it as a step down to accept the VP slot after campaigning so hard for the Presidential nomination. But for Obama, who has limited experience in the national forum, it would be a step up. He'd probably jump at the chance.

So maybe that's where all this "Obama may run for President in '08" talk is coming from. I still don't see who anointed him and why, but the media is biting and he's bound to become a household word before too long.

Here's another from July, 2006 on Hillary, 2008 and the women's votes and netroots support.

Like many in the netroots, I haven't been thrilled by the prospect of Hillary as the Democratic candidate, mostly because of her position on issues I care about. Example: She's pro-death penalty and has been a vocal supporter of the War in Iraq. But, that's what I see when I view Democratic contenders through an issue-based lens, and I'm trying my hardest to overcome that.

When I view her through a values-based lens, and think about how Democrats can take back the White House so we can restore some balance to our Supreme Court and federal judiciary and better the economic conditions of our poor and middle class, she's much more acceptable.

I think Carville and Simon are right that women voters can put her over the top. If we are going to have a woman presidential candidate, there is no one with more experience, smarts, savvy and fortitude than Hillary Clinton.

What a long campaign this has been.

A final note: It's been a privilege and an honor to support Hillary Clinton in her presidential bid. I only came to the decision to do so after John Edwards dropped out of the race. Before that, I was split between them.

As the race progressed between Hillary and Obama, I became 100% convinced that Hillary is the best candidate for the job and is better able to beat John McCain in November. I remain convinced of that today.

If she's not the nominee -- and the race isn't over yet so it's too soon to say -- just as she will campaign for Obama as the Democratic candidate, I will vote for him. In the end, this is about getting a Democrat back in the White House.

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    when the campaign started (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:32:50 PM EST
    i never expected to be voting for hillary- which i am- when i hand in my ballot, today (was too late to mail it). and my now tepid support for hillary has me much criticized by the obamabots. interesting to see you've followed a somewhat similar path.

    Funny how the sinews have stiffened. (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:36:08 PM EST
    I could have supported either Obama or Clinton at the beginning.  

    Parent
    Me too... (5.00 / 7) (#17)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:44:08 PM EST
    and was one of the loudest to yell "Any Dem '08" and to be pushing the Unity Ticket.

    Obama lost my vote. I will not be a member of the New Plutocratic Party a la Chris Bowers.

    Parent

    As you know, that is where our paths (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:54:42 PM EST
    diverge.  

    Parent
    That's okay... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:57:02 PM EST
    we're agreeing to disagree.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 9) (#7)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:36:52 PM EST
    Yeah, I never expected to be a Hillary supporter either.  She has run a much more appealing campaign than he has.  I'm disappointed because I felt he had so much more potential, but his message has just been the exact opposite of where I believe the Democratic Party needs to go.

    Parent
    i've never been a fan (5.00 / 12) (#14)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:41:47 PM EST
    of a bipartisan/postpartisan/purple schtick. i'm a democrat for a reason. for many reasons...

    Parent
    It's ironic (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    that just as the Democrats are poised to have a landmark year, the blogosphere (of all places) has decided they want to go with the message of blurring the differences between the two parties and refusing to put blame on Republican ideology for getting us here.

    We failed to drive a stake through the heart of Reaganomics after the 80s and guess what, it came back to bite us again.  The notion that all we have to do is elect a Democrat and all the bad Republican ideas will be magically debunked is just crazy.

    I always thought of Hillary as the ultimate in political caution, but Obama has outdistanced her by leaps and bounds during this campaign.  Typical Democratic behavior, we're always in love with whichever politician hasn't disappointed us just yet.

    Parent

    I figured HRC out, I think... (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:52:08 PM EST
    she panders when she feels it will do no harm. Like the gas tax...unlike McCain, she will pay for it with the oil companies' money, so it will help consumers and not put the government further in debt.

    It's not a long-term solution, but those are blocked until we kick BushCheney to the curb anyway.

    This type of pandering helps her get the working class votes, IMHO.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:55:57 PM EST
    It's not really what I would call pandering, it's more like preventing the Republicans from owning symbolic issues.  See my comment here.

    Parent
    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:00:36 PM EST
    I should have put quotation marks around the word "pandering."

    It's not a negative to me, it's a positive.

    Parent

    Although she lost one of my (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:56:01 PM EST
    highly-educated friends with her gas tax holiday proposal.  Friend now says she'll vote for Obama.

    Parent
    for that? (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:04:09 PM EST
    I think your highly educated friend must have other reasons.  I can't imagine changing my vote for that.  There are so many important differences.

    Parent
    My reaction precisely. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:05:18 PM EST
    (BTW, my friend drives a Prius.)

    Parent
    Out of curiosity (none / 0) (#116)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:05:16 PM EST
    What are your important differences?

    Parent
    um... (none / 0) (#119)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:10:44 PM EST
    experience, actual policy plans, she's a fighter,

    he is unproven, will have serious issues in GE due to lack of vetting, campaigns on an emotional/rock star level instead of actual work
    is quick to claim credit, quick to place blame, has built a large money machine and asked donors to fund through him only..very scary imo, has proven untrustworthy and willing to switch sides if it benefits him.

    just a few

    Parent

    Okay.. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:43:26 PM EST
    I don't know if you'd be willing to discuss it at all, but I disagree with about 99% of what you wrote there.

    Experience- I have two issues with this. 1) What is your definition for experience that would be beneficial towards being commander in chief? and 2) What is the significant experience difference between Obama / Hillary with regards to the type of experience mentioned above?

    I'll give you my take on the experience thing... personally I believe that the best kind of experience that would give you a leg up to becoming president is that of managing big organizations- like being a CEO.  Does this mean I want CEOs as President? No- I also don't think that the experience thing is that big of a deal.  I care much more about the ideals of the candidate.

    Policy Plans- After watching a large portion of the debates (I did miss a few :( ) and reading both of their websites- I really can't understand how people could think this.  I see them both having solid plans, with minor differences but largely similar overall.  They are both liberal and democrats, so its kind of expected.

    I'll admit Hillary is certainly a fighter, but at the same time... technically Obama is still fighting for the nomination.

    And lastly...
    "he is unproven, will have serious issues in GE due to lack of vetting, campaigns on an emotional/rock star level instead of actual work
    is quick to claim credit, quick to place blame, has built a large money machine and asked donors to fund through him only..very scary imo, has proven untrustworthy and willing to switch sides if it benefits him."

    These talking points to me are really kind of ridiculous.  Nothing I have seen supports this kind of character-hit, and I can't support any kind of heavily-biased criticism of either candidate's character.  I really only associate this kind of character-bashing as the type of campaigning I've seen from the Republican side.

    Both candidates we have are wonderful people, and I do believe they both have devoted most of their lives to helping the unfortunate.

    But if you really want me to play devil's advocate, I could certainly go find just as much criticism of Hillary's character- but I really don't believe any of it is justified, and doesn't support a civil discussion of the candidates.

    Parent

    Whatever floats her boat. (none / 0) (#53)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:03:04 PM EST
    I Wound Up Voting For Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:41:11 PM EST
    If anyone had told me in January 07 that I would end up voting for her, my response would have been "Nah." Never disliked Hillary, just disagreed with her on some issues and was not a fan of the DLC. In the end, I found out that I disagreed with Obama a lot more than I disagreed with Hillary.  

    Parent
    Tepid or not... neat. (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:44:30 PM EST
    Turkana voting for Hill!

    Parent
    Edwards initially, then, when Obama did well in IA (5.00 / 8) (#49)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:00:33 PM EST
    I began to google around, trying to learn more about him. On my main blog, the Obama supporters essentially just praised Hope and Change, and requests for particulars were greeted with "Go read his blog."

    Which I did, and didn't find what I was looking for. Then, I read about his "see the light" instructions at his rallies, and all my skepticism antennas went crazy.  I am not good with that kind of take on reality.

    So, more googling, more searching for sites with actual info. Krugman was instructive.  Learned about his Excelon legislation and the changes which meant less and less oversight of the kinds of leaks Excelon had permitted; learned about his early tactics in winning elections (yikes!), found more and more changes in his "stands" on issues, felt less and less comfortable.

    Then, I began to learn more about Hillary Clinton. And I thought I knew enough -- but such things as her early adoption of the importance of micro loans, way back in her AR days, blew me away! Then I learned that that vote for flag legislation was more tactical protection of civil liberties than an assault on them. I'd trusted some bloggers on that issue: Ooof.

    Initially, I had actually commented that I thought having Clinton remain in the Senate, without the need to appeal nationally as a more centrist presidential candidate, would be a good thing: She could be as liberal as a NY senator could be and do great things in the Senate.

    Now, here I am, a strong Hillary supporter, thinking that we dare not miss the chance to have her as our president.  

    Parent

    I agree with jawbone (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by rnibs on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:31 PM EST
    It was the research into who he was, as well as his dismissive attitude toward Hillary ("you're likeable enough") that started to change things for me.  

    That, and his seeming lack of interest in finishing things.  He's like one of the people in my home town who likes to play the "board" game.  They like being on lots of boards and being able to brag about it, but they never actually show up to the meetings or do the work.

    Parent

    This was exactly my path to Clinton support too (none / 0) (#141)
    by Valhalla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:31:47 PM EST
    And several friends of mine.  I was undecided before Super Tuesday, actually leaning a tad toward Obama.  Then I buckled down and really did the research.

    Their policies on paper are almost exactly the same.  But there were two things about Clinton that moved me from undecided to no-brainer.  The first is experience in politics.  The second is that she's a plugger.  She works her ass off.  She knows her stuff.  She makes mistakes (of course) but gets right back up off the ground and starts over.  I know she'll fight like hell.

    The more I looked at the arguments supporting Obama, the more I thought they all boiled down to "he can draw a crowd." And the whole Jesus Christ Superstar phenomenon made me nervous.  Also it made me nervous that he didn't have any evidence of fighting like hell.  On paper is one thing, actions are another.

    Even then, though, I could have voted for him in the GE.  But now, though, I've moved into the staying home camp, because I've been so turned off by weakness of Democratic leadership and Obama at not reining in all the misogyny.  They've really failed me.

    Parent

    Clinton convert here too (5.00 / 7) (#91)
    by davnee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:22:10 PM EST
    Never really liked her before.  Didn't hate her, but too much of the right wing 90's noise had at least subconsciously stuck in my head.  But when I took a closer look, I just had no idea how bright and amazingly accomplished politically she was in her own right.  How had I missed it all those years?!  I also found I was much more in agreement with her policies than I realized.  And most of all, the strength and resolve she has exhibited during this campaign has made me a personal admirer as well as a political supporter.  I find myself now deeply disappointed at the thought we might pass up the chance to elect this woman president.  I have sincerely come to believe she could be one of the greats.  And I'm not ashamed to point out the bonus that she is a woman, which would just make it all the sweeter.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:36:14 PM EST
    TL apparently numbers prescience amongst its many bloggerly virtues.

    One of the very interesting developments of this primary is how quickly Senator Obama transformed from the outsider to the establishment choice and how Senator Clinton has done something almost the opposite.

    I find using 'insurgents' to describe bloggers as fairly off-putting considering how the term is currently employed re: war in Iraq.  It's another word the Bushies have ruined for me.

    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Josey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:08:24 PM EST
    was the Establishment's candidate from the gitgo! The media promoted the Hillary is "inevitable" meme while the pundits dogwhistled "Who can beat Hillary?"
    No newbie senator would begin plotting his presidential run during his first month in the Senate without the blessing and support of the Washington and media Establishment.
    The same Elite Establishment Obama claims he'll "change."


    Parent
    One thing bother me about that article (5.00 / 17) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:37:14 PM EST
    I have NEVER EVER EVER received a talking point from the Hillary Clinton campaign and I deeply resent the implication that what I write is any way not my own thoughts.

    I have NEVER EVER received talking points from anyone at anytime on anything.

    Frankly, I am too big of an egomaniac to believe that some campaign operative can make an argument more effectively than I can.

    But mostly I am insulted that people are so quick to insult our integrity.

    You may think I am an idiot, a jerk or anything you wish. But do NOT EVER think that I write anything but what I think. EVER.

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:40:08 PM EST
    Arguably, you receive talking points, you just don't oblige by spouting them!

    You'll notice they make brief mention of McCain's regular conference calls with conservative bloggers, but somehow the article about how it's all a bunch of talking points never gets written regarding McCain.  Kinda funny, since the GOP's relationship with the blogs is much more top-down than what we have on our side.

    Parent

    Check... (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:53:00 PM EST
    BTD not a talking point tool.

    Got it...

    Parent

    But we knew that. (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:57:20 PM EST
    Of course we did... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:05:59 PM EST
    Ditto (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by goldberry on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:01:57 PM EST
    The Clinton campaign has been refreshingly hands-off .  I get invited to conference calls attended by the press and occasionally Peter will send a "Have you seen this?" link but that's it.  There are no coordinated events, no talking points.  It has been very respectful.  

    Parent
    I think you're cute as a button (none / 0) (#51)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:00:53 PM EST
    Heh (none / 0) (#94)
    by rnibs on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:24:10 PM EST
    Well said.

    Parent
    Very evident in your (none / 0) (#105)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM EST
    well-examined and clearly stated blogs. It's also one of the great things about this site. Individuals discussing how they see things, and it's you, Jeralyn and TChris who set that standard.

    Parent
    I don't see that Hillary is using the (none / 0) (#118)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:09:23 PM EST
    blogs for anything more than a window into what we, as a group, are thinking. She listens to everyone, including "the chattering class". And if BTD was getting talking points from Hillary, why was he saying Obama was going to win?? I really don't think that is one of her talking points. Heh.

    Parent
    What I see here (5.00 / 10) (#12)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:40:14 PM EST
    Is that even a Clinton supporter like Jeralyn is prone to a misconception about Clinton.  More specifically, she refers to Clinton's "vocal support of the war."

    It's hard to say.  No one can view anything with any objectivity.  How many people on blogs think Clinton voted for the last Bankruptcy Bill?  How many people on blogs think Clinton voted for CAFTA?

    So does it surprise me that Jeralyn here believed Clinton was a vocal supporter of the war?

    Not at all.

    It's a difficult thing to be sure.  We do know she said a unilateral pre-emptive attack would be a bad thing.  Is that support for the war?  So.  If you're disinclined to believe what she says or take what she says at face value, then oh well.

    The question is how does one define "vocal supporter of the war."

    If that is defined as anyone who voted "yes" on the AUMF and said things like "Well, I support the President and things are going to be worse if we fail" then I wonder who doesn't qualify???  Probably a lot of people.  Clearly Obama never supported the president in the matter, and he clearly believes Iraq will be better off when we leave!!

    Hey..  Vocal supporter of the war.

    Now I can't remember how she voted on CAFTA and the Bankruptcy Bill.

    I bet David Sirota and Kid Oakland will be along shortly to tell us how she feels about everything.


    Hillary war vote (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Rashomon66 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:51:42 PM EST
    If you vote to give authority to go to war you cannot really finesse your way around that vote. Whether a Senator has a staunch pro-war stance or a lukewarm lets-be-patient view if you voted for this war - knowing full well what the Bush Administration's plans were [and who the heck didn't?] - your vote is exactly the same: A yes vote.
    She knew she would be running for President someday and she didn't want to be on the wrong side of a war that seemed easily winnable.
    Many voters think she deserves to be criticized for that vote.

    Parent
    So you believe (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:54:57 PM EST
    Everyone who voted "for the war" was voting for, in no uncertain terms, an immediate, unilateral, pre-emptive attack?

    Parent
    "FOR the war" (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:43:21 PM EST
    I truly take her at her word that her vote was not to go to war, but to put the force of the Whitehouse behind the threat to Iraq in letting the inspectors do their job.

    Parent
    It is very much consistent (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:58:35 PM EST
    With her views on Diplomacy and how the office of the president should be used.


    Parent
    I do... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Alec82 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:10:26 PM EST
    ...and I think, regardless of one's thoughts about the war now, and whether a candidate should be judged by a large percentage of voters on that issue, it was very clear at the time that the Bush administration was committed to going to war.  The amendments that were defeated speak to that reality.  There was no chance in hell the Security Council was going to approve that invasion.  If the vote wasn't as you described, what was it?

    Parent
    I believe (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:14:44 PM EST
    it wasn't.  I take the resolution as it was written, at face value.

    Hey.  I know a lot of people knew otherwise, that whatever was written in the resolution itself, that the vote meant going to war, unilaterally and pre-emptively.

    It's just funny, cause even those who have been given credit for mea culpas, even those folks have not CONCEDED that they voted for a pre-emptive unilateral war.

    Do you believe John Kerry and John Edwards voted for a pre-emptive unilateral war?

    I don't.

    What do you want me to say?

    Parent

    I don't know.... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Alec82 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:31 PM EST
    ....I just think that those senators were aware that President Bush was going to use it to go to war.  

     Call me cynical, but I credit Senator Durbin for what he did, and I seriously question the integrity of the senate in 2002.  The great bulk of them failed as as representatives.  Now, they retract, now they apologize, and now we absolve them when we do...or we say we do.  They were asleep at the wheel, or they didn't care, or they cared about reelection campaigns, or something.  Whatever it was, they knew what was going to happen when they voted for the AUMF.  

    Parent

    I have always believed (none / 0) (#120)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:11:53 PM EST
    That there is no way I can argue against your point, I finally came to that realization later on, simply because there is no way I can prove, no way either of us can prove the motivations of our representatives.  I mean, I like to think I've been consistent on this.  When Shrum reported in his latest book that Edwards went against his own better judgment and listened to consultants on the vote, I think Shrum was being slanderous.  Edwards was quick to deny it, and I defended Edwards on that point.

    If you follow.

    I can deal with disagreement.  Half the Senate voted for it, half voted against it, in such cases I truly do try to avoid dialogs that force people to conclude that half the party is too weak to stand up for what they believe in.  

    It's an immature viewpoint anyway.  Something all kids deal with.  "Everyone who doesn't agree with me, well, they really do agree with me, they're just not as brave as I am to do what's right."

    No democrat is ever going to stand up and say "I voted for a pre-emptive unilateral war."

    So you must think they are liars or incapable of standing up for what they believe in.


    Parent

    I don't know what their motivations were... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Alec82 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:48:29 PM EST
    ...but I know what the vote authorized, I know they know what the vote authroized, and I would like to think they knew that there was not a chance in hell that the security council would authorize the invasion, and I'll leave it at that.

     I would add that it wasn't half the senate for, half against; it was a little less than half the Democratic delegation against it, a little over half for it.  

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:18:42 PM EST
    I never got around to say what I always believed.

    What I always believed is that the only way to reconcile that episode to the benefit of the Democratic Party is to say, quite simply, "Some voted for it for their reasons, some voted against it for their reasons, everyone stood up for what they believe in and all those reasons were valid."

    Just for instance, Russ Feingold believes a president should never have that authority, period, as a matter of constitutional law. That's why he didn't vote to give Clinton that authority during Bosnia.    Now I don't need to second guess Feingold's motivations there.  He stands up for what he believes in and we most definitely need to have people in our party who believe what he believes and who reach out to constituents who believe the same.

    Now.  What I didn't like about Feingold is that instead of doing the same with those he disagrees with, he questioned their motivations.  In his view, believing that a president should have that authority is invalid.

    Parent

    In my book (none / 0) (#125)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    there was no way out once the Democratic leaders like Daschle and Gephardt agreed to let the White House schedule the vote when they did and frame it as an "authorization" vote.  You had Bush saying that the only way Saddam would disarm is if there were a credible threat of force, and so the vote was basically framed as "are you going to pull the run out from under the President by taking away his diplomatic leverage?"

    It's easy for you and I to say that of course Bush acts in bad faith and shouldn't have been trusted.  But it would have been nigh impossible for the Democrats to say, in unison "sorry but we don't trust Bush with the authority."  Voting against the war itself would have been plausible; voting against the authority was just too tough to sell.  In fact, it's entirely possible that Bush would have gone to war even without a vote, on the theory that he was protecting the country against an imminent threat, and he would have argued "I wanted to try diplomacy, but Congress wouldn't give me the leverage."

    I think it was a politically perfect set-up by Bush and I have to assign the lion's-share of the blame to the Democratic leadership for letting it get framed in that way.

    Parent

    See, this is what I (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:29:20 PM EST
    fail to comprehend.  There is a speculation that Obama has or has show the courage that if he was in the Senate he would have voted against the war.  In my opinion, Obama is an appeaser and pleaser.  No way would he have stood up if it had any political implications.  He spoke against the war cause he had nothing to lose at that point.  It truly boggles the mind to make the leap of attributing Obama with courage when he has never been tested, and when he has, he has shown that he has none.  

    Not standing up for his community to Rezko, was the nail on the coffin.  If you don't stand up for the people you represent, you have no political courage.  

    Parent

    According to an article I read (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:42:03 PM EST
    recently, Obama consulted with polical types before he agreed to speak at Federal Plaza against going to war in Iraq.  If it wasn't politically expedient at the time and wouldn't hurt him in the future, o.k., good to go.

    Now, about missing the vote on Kyle-Lieberman.

    Parent

    Good job, Stellaaa. (none / 0) (#104)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:39:53 PM EST
    (Nice segue to Rezko, BTW; but such a "non-issue.")

    Parent
    2005 bankruptcy bill (none / 0) (#144)
    by Avedon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:11:45 PM EST
    Hillary voted for all of the amendments that were intended to ameliorate the effects of the bankruptcy bill, but at the time the bill came to the floor, she was at the hospital while her husband had heart surgery.  Her office sent out a statement opposing the bill.

    Obama, by the way, voted against the amendment to cap interest at 30%.

    Parent

    It's SENATOR Clinton!!!!!!!! (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by jackyt on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:42:25 PM EST
    So now even the NYT is eliminating her earned title in favor of the "oh, she's just a rose in Bill's lapel" mrs.

    They SHOULD worry about an insurgency. But it will be of their own making, not Hillary's!

    But apparently no one but me still (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    subscribes to the NYT.  Pretty poor base for an insurgency.

    Parent
    Standard Times style (none / 0) (#103)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:37:11 PM EST
    is to use Mr./Mrs./Miss after first mention of title.  I think, but I'm not sure, that they have finally decided it's OK to use "Ms." when someone specifically requests it.

    Look it up.  The NYTimes has a very, very peculiar stylebook all its own that makes no sense, but they are not dissing Hillary.

    Parent

    Idiots. They don't get it at all. (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:43:27 PM EST
    She didn't reach out to the netroots because she had almost no support at the political blogs and never expected to.  Oddly, as this campaign has continued, Hillary supporters like River Daughter, have spawned netroots 2.0, the anti--establishment of the roots.  It's ironic.

    I listened to the entire call via the (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM EST
    link.  It is clear Hillary Clinton was on the call to thank her blog supporters.  She also used the opportunity to set forth her Map not the Math meme.  She also did an astounding job of engaging with BTD on the issues he raised before he posed his question.  

    Parent
    Yes, I was on too. (none / 0) (#24)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:48:20 PM EST
    I wish she had had time for more questions.  I had a good one.

    Parent
    I was a listener after-the-fact. What (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:49:46 PM EST
    was your question?

    Parent
    I wanted to ask her if she (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:52:23 PM EST
    thought the super's were aware that Obama peaked in February, and that she had outperformed him for the past two months, if so why did she think that wasn't getting any traction.  

    Parent
    Ooo, that's a good one (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by goldberry on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:55:08 PM EST
    I had my hand up too.  I want to know what were the remaining objections to seating Florida and Michigan?

    Parent
    Barack the Mouth caught in another lie (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by cpa1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:44:49 PM EST
    McCain has been complaining that Obama said he would meet with Raoul Castro with no preconditions.  I just saw Obama on Wolf Blitzer and he said McCain is misquoting him.  Obama said first the ground rules of the meeting would have to be decided.  Gee, like what kind of coffee to serve, where to meet, should they smoke Cuban Cigars.....etc [the last sentence was mine].

    This guy Obama wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the face.

    Why is Obama suddenly the spokesperson (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:55:38 PM EST
    for Kennedy? He's acting like he's known the guy for 20 years. Why can't they get one of his sisters or sons to talk about it?

    Parent
    Is that what is happening? (none / 0) (#66)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    glad I won't be watching TV till later in the evening.  That is disgusting.  

    Parent
    That's "Ted" for dear friend Obama. n/t (none / 0) (#71)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST
    ...and Vicki this and Vicki that... (none / 0) (#89)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:19:35 PM EST
    ...apparently Ted has been Obama's mentor in... his one year in the Senate.

    Parent
    I imagine Teddy's family (none / 0) (#108)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:42:45 PM EST
    is pretty busy at the moment and has other concerns.  That said, I agree with you.  I don't care for Obama's sort of possessive attitude about Kennedy.

    DId you see Sen. Byrd collapse in tears in the Senate? He cried out, "I love you, Ted!" and dissolved.

    Parent

    It is finally happening (none / 0) (#64)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:06:20 PM EST
    Wish it had been Clinton hitting Obama harder with that YouTube debate answer though.

    I know it was hard for the MSM to stop marvelling at the Talking Snowman long enough to notice, but Obama did indeed promise to meet with Castro in his first year in office, with no preconditions.  He did not say however whether it would be before or after he met with Chavez, Ahmadinijad, etc.  It is going to be a very busy year.

    Parent

    Yeah, but that was a promise to meet (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:14:45 PM EST
    with Fidel, you know; times change.

    Parent
    Quibble: I care about ELECTING a progressive (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:48:46 PM EST
    Be that a Republican, Democrat, Green or independent.  

    Show me a progressive Republican (none / 0) (#127)
    by dotcommodity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:28:39 PM EST
    ...........................?

    Parent
    Historically, large part of progressive (none / 0) (#142)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:32:16 PM EST
    movement came from the Republican progressives in the early part of the last century. Fighting Bob, for example, was a Republican. There aren't alot of progressive Republicans now, I grant you that -- although Jeffords was close.  

    Parent
    Wow! I made the NYTimes and I'm insurgent (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by goldberry on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:51:59 PM EST
    Cool!  I've always wanted to subvert the dominant paradigm.  ;-)

    You Go Goldberry! (none / 0) (#128)
    by dotcommodity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:30:37 PM EST
    Goldberry/RiverDaughter/Confluence

    I love what you have done at the barricades...and its so warm and comfy too!

    Parent

    We should take this as our theme (none / 0) (#136)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:49:55 PM EST
    song

    Any Volunteers for the revolution?? I say if the Dems aren't going to listen, we should have a peaceful revolution..like the song says, We can be together..at the polls. WriteHillaryIn.com is a great way to start. Check it out after you watch the video.

    Parent

    Very respectfully ... (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:53:56 PM EST
    I disagree with Jeralyn.

    In the end, this is about getting a Democrat back in the White House.

    Getting a Democrat back in the White House at any cost is not my goal.  

     

    She was my very last choice. (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    I've come a looooooooong way baby. Obama, my earlier second choice, may not get my vote if he makes it to the GE. I'm that disgusted with the campaign he has run.  

    Was my third choice: (none / 0) (#138)
    by dotcommodity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:55:47 PM EST
    I was drafting Gore till he dropped out... Went to Edwards till I heard him say "son of a millworker" just one too many times - and no real meat in debates, just bleh...v - her fluid and detailed grasp of eco policy in the Grist Climate Debate cf Edwards/Kucinich was staggering. Obama didn't bother debating climate (Sweetie....)

    Edwards out, I still openminded, (had forgotten no Obama at Grist) read both energy plans Obama and Clinton and it became perfectly clear that she knew and cared enough to make good policy/he simply strung together keywords...

    I have gotten madder and madder about the misrepresentation in the media/blogosphere - nobody ever did a side by side comparison of their two eco plans so I finally just did one over at Goldberry's site The Confluence I'm sending to Al Gore and some of the other eco Supers - if anyone wants to attach a note by way of last ditch begging Supers to use brains, its at What Should Superdelegate Al Gore Do?


    Parent

    Jeralyn, how can the NYTimes (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:59:54 PM EST
    get away with using an inflammatory term like "insurgents" to describe bloggers who now support Hillary? I mean, they sold the Iraq war, lock stock and barrel; but have they no shame at all!


    you're right (none / 0) (#56)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:04:21 PM EST
    ... but at least I don't feel I have any part on this because the only magazines I'm subscribed to are Foreign Affairs and The Economist.  What puzzles me to no end is why they endorsed Hillary?!  They have not said one nice word about her since then.

    Parent
    Monda, the NYTimes (none / 0) (#143)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:01:15 PM EST
    endorsed Hillary so that can look 'objective' when they denigrate her, with impunity, for the remainder of the race.  

    Parent
    Ah (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:00:13 PM EST
    More unity talk.

    Nope (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:04:32 PM EST
    Philosophically, I disagree with him but I could have gotten over that. What I won't get over is that instead of making a compelling argument for his philosophy that he'd dismiss half the electorate as low information rather than address the shortcomings in his platform or discuss his philosophy. It's reminiscent with how the GOP has behaved with the word liberal.

    I don't expect candidates to always agree with me. I DO expect them to treat me and others like me with respect. I haven't seen that. Not even a little bit.

    oh .... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:10:19 PM EST
    "Sweetie", it seems that you and rev Wright both majored in "miracles".  From the mentor:

    God raised Barack from a dead political career to the United States Senate. Then, as Jesus ascended into Heaven, God made a way for Barack to ascend to the pinnacle of politics. . . . We are truly in a "new day."

    Posted it earlier today but just in case you didn't get the chance to read it and feel the spiritual connection.


    Who said this? Is there a link? n/t (none / 0) (#84)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:15:22 PM EST
    Who else but (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:21:11 PM EST
    Rev Wright?! ;)

    It's up at NoQ, but here is the original article

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjRhNDQ4MGFlYjk0YzUwNDk0MzYyNTE1ZDkwYmNmNDc=&w=Mg==

    Part of the essay "Facing the Rising Sun" by Wright.

    Parent

    Fixing Monda's link (none / 0) (#115)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:59:49 PM EST
    Essay, "Facing the Rising Sun" by Wright

    Parent
    Hmm (5.00 / 7) (#75)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    The strategy of electing a Dem first and then demanding an end to the war seems to have a built-in flaw.  Which is to say, we the voters have leverage before the election, not after it.

    Unfortunately, the anti-war left cast its lot when it decided that getting revenge on Hillary for her war vote was more important than actually demanding a candidate who will end the war.  There's very little difference between the stated positions of these two candidates on the war; you can have faith that one or the other will really end it and the other will not, but there is no difference outside of the realm of faith.

    There once was a time when the liberal blogs lamented Obama's disappointing record on the war once he joined the Senate.  Now he's been converted into the glorious anti-war hero because of what he said back in 2002.  But none of that will change his actual record in office, and none of that demonstrates that he is more likely to actually end the war.  As I said, the blogs decided revenge was the most important thing, and they got their wish.

    if there is no safe exit from war (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:12:59 PM EST
    then how do you end it?  Your dog is eating its tail.

    Anyone who reads Bob Somerby knows (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:14:03 PM EST
    how often Seelye includes baseless speculation in her  "biased work." It used to be that way in her 2000 Gore coverage and it continues on in her Clinton writings.

    The archives of the DailyHowler are the place to go for info re Seelye et al.

    ex.: http://dailyhowler.com/dh121707.shtml

    Has Hillary really "fallen"? (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:14:06 PM EST
    She once had the lead in national and state polling, but that doesn't necessarily mean her support has "fallen." I would argue that she has always been in the mid forties, the anti-Hillary forces have always been in the mid-forties, and there has always been 10-20 in the middle that are neither for her or against her.  Considering that at the end of all this she very likely may win the popular vote, I wouldn't call that falling.

    In the end (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:17:20 PM EST
    The basic goal is electing the best possible President of the United States.  Party should be secondary to the decision and only one of the factors.

    In the end, this is about getting a Democrat back in the White House.

    Going down this rabbit hole is just wrong.

    Normally I'd agree with you (none / 0) (#111)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    emphatically.  But these are not normal times.  I've never seen a more critical election in my lifetime.  Any Dem is better than any Republican this time around.  I don't know if we can survive another four years of Republican rule.

    The saddest thing is that we had the opportunity to do so much better.  This race in November should have been an absolute blowout.  Now, if we've got Obama as our candidate, I'm not even sure we can win at all.  He has ripped the party apart.  The "unity" schtick is Orwellian.

    Here is what should have happened, IMHO.  Al Gore should have stepped up, early, and taken the nomination.  The other candidates and possible candidates should have lined up behind him, and some of them should have become part of a dream team.

    That's how it should have played out, and then we would have been on the road to setting things straight in this country.  But that's all water under the bridge.  Ugh.

    Parent

    Every election is the most important (none / 0) (#137)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:54:32 PM EST
    at the time.  2004 was said to be, now it's 2008.  In 1972, that was the most important election of our lifetimes. It's obviously true that we could have done better this time, but we didn't or haven't yet.

    It's never wise to violate first principles.  Electing the best person to be President should be one of them, IMHO.

    Parent

    We are about 7 years to the point of no return on (none / 0) (#139)
    by dotcommodity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:59:25 PM EST
    climate. This IS the most important election in our history.

    Parent
    that's the media narrative (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Josey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:15:30 PM EST
    and part of the hoax of Obama winning "against all odds" - while the media cast Hillary as "inevitable" and promoted him and concealed negative info about him until most of the primaries were over.
    When Kerry endorsed Obama last December, Edwards said he'd told him last summer he was endorsing Obama.
    Obama is no insurgent.


    Heh (4.75 / 8) (#1)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:27:11 PM EST
    The NYT does note that Obama has yet to do a single blogger conference call.  Kind of ironic, that.

    The whole piece has that infuriating MSM tone of "everything Hillary does is uniquely calculating" that just drives me insane.  They never report on other politicians this way, but when Hillary does anything, they just have to make sure everyone sees the stage management.

    Excuse me. NYT style manual (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:34:08 PM EST
    apparently ordains the following useage:

    Many in the M.S.M .

    First time I've seen that.

    Parent

    Oculus, seriously, do you sleep with that manual? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:58:30 PM EST
    On Clinton/Obama, I GUARANTEE y'all that before all this started, Clinton's people approached Obama about a joint ticket and he said no.   HRC and WJC are just too freakin' politically savvy not to do that sort of thing.

    Parent
    M,S,M, actually doesn't make sense: Mainstream (none / 0) (#95)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:27:11 PM EST
    should not be acronymed as Main Stream.

    For which reason, I much prefer Mainstream Corporate Media (MCM, or, per NYTimes style book, M.C.M.)--MCM's second letter captures the corporate influence affecting of media.

    I did not come up with this designation: I came across it long ago and on some left blogosphere site, in a comment by someone I failed to note at the time. But it struck me as the better way to designate out current vaunted "free" press.

    Parent

    My snarky observation was confined (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:34:16 PM EST
    to the periods between the letters.  Kind of pretentious.

    Parent
    Lynn Sweet reported earlier that Obama (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:04 PM EST
    informed his press group that he does not read blogs. Period.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:50:04 PM EST
    Barack Obama, December 2006:

    "One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me? And increasingly, when I read Daily Kos, it doesn't surprise me. It's all just exactly what I would expect."


    Parent
    This is what astounds me (none / 0) (#132)
    by Jane in CA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:40:26 PM EST
    All politicians lie.  Few politians lie as much or as blatantly as Obama, and even fewer get a media pass for it.  But why on earth would you lie just for the sake of lying?  What point is there, really, to saying "I don't read blogs" when you just said, 2 weeks earlier, that you read blogs?  I can only assume it is arrogance, stupidity, or pathology -- or any combination thereof.

    Parent
    I had her as my first choice (none / 0) (#2)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:29:00 PM EST
    in July of 2007. I flirted with other candidates, but went back to her when Edwards dropped out.

    It certainly has been a long campaign, and thanks to you, BTD and TalkLeft for helping us get through it!

    She was my 1st choice (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by brodie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:46:15 PM EST
    from the day our nominee Kerry meekly conceded the 04 race to Junior, Rove and Blackwell.  And despite her unfortunate vote in 02, which I felt was a far tougher bind for her representing the Ground Zero State than it was for other senators.  

    Sure do wish she'd found a way, say taking the lead of Sen Graham, and voted Nay.  Had she done so, arguably the highly ambitious O would not have entered the race.  Or would have been running only for VP, as she likely would have had it all wrapped up either by NH or by SupTues.

    What might have been ...

    Well, maybe there's still hope ...

    Parent

    What puzzles me (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by sister of ye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:04:14 PM EST
    is the number of people who say, I could never for Clinton because of AUMF, yet supported Edwards, who made exactly the same vote. I suspect they wanted Clinton to make some passionate apology that included plenty of groveling.

    I myself prefer Clinton's explanation that she supported the AUMF at Hans Blix' request, not expecting Bush to proceed with a wholly illegal invasion, over Edwards' saying that he was going to vote against it, but changed his mind because it would hurt his political career.


    Parent

    What hurt Clinton for me (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:08:33 PM EST
    initially was her position on Iran. Edwards was very vocal that he made a mistake in trusting Bush. The Iran vote seemed to spit in the eye of the idea that George Bush was untrustworthy. I still disagree with her on calling the Iranian Guard terrorist for doing the same thing our side and the Saudis havebeen doing. Seems rather hypocritical to me.

    Parent
    Raising a possibility (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by sister of ye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:15:58 PM EST
    Do you think perhaps she was trying one of those "defuse the issue" maneuvers like she did with the flag burning issue? Kind of, oh, sure, they're terrorists, whatever you say [looks at watch, desperately trying to kill time till we get a sane leader in the WH].


    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#97)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    I'd buy that. I don't expect to agree with her on everything and I do understand that she may have had her motives for her vote that aren't readily apparent.

    I'm just trying to explan why I leaned Edwards and gave him more credibility despite the fact that he vote on AUMF.

    Parent

    Here's the funny thing (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:15:59 PM EST
    How many of those who dislike Hillary's vote on Kyl-Lieberman know the following facts:

    1. No fewer than 10 Senators who voted against the Iraq War, thus demonstrating that they are disinclined to give Bush a blank check, voted in favor of Kyl-Lieberman.

    2. Obama himself co-sponsored a different bill, earlier in the year, that also designated the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization.

    Maybe it was poor politics by Hillary to vote for this amendment, because the anti-war left is so suspicious of her on these issues.  But please don't make the mistake of believing that the criticism has actual merit, or that Obama's attack on this issue was based on anything more than pure political opportunism.  Kyl-Lieberman simply isn't a clearcut issue.

    Parent
    After witnessing Edwards and Kerry defending their (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:45:44 PM EST
    Iraq vote until the v. last day of the 2004 campaign, and hearing their responses of "the question" 24/7 namely "had they known then what they know now" - Yes, of course, they would still vote for the war because Saddam Hussein yaddayadda ... How embarrassing was that? Even Imus couldn't believe it, for heavens sake.

    ... and considering it took Edwards another year to publicly say he was wrong about the Iraq vote

    ... and the fact alone that Edwards said he had simply no time to think about his Iraq vote during his 2004 for Prez and later as VP until later in 2005 (MIT 2007) ... I must have been the only one who heard that. Edwards had no time during his campaign for Prez to think about the Iraq vote.
    ZZZzzzzz .....

    ... and the apology bamboozle which only worked because of the Clinton hate on the blogs and media - in fact, it became talking point numero uno.
    Moore still used it on his recent L. King appearance.

    So after all that and then some I find the blogger's embrace of Edwards not just embarrassing but v. very hypocritical.

    P.S. I don't respect anyone - esp. not a candidate for Prez - who expects to be redeemed/admired and     special status for making an apology after  some admitted wrongdoing. I find it unethical and always have.
    But for the Clinton haters it wiped away campaign 2004 and whatever .... Did I mention hypocritical?  

    Parent

    I know. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by AX10 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:16:07 PM EST
    Kerry and Edwards are not any pillars of strength and conviction, but since they support Obama, they must be, at least in Obamaland.
    But remember, this is the same John Kerry who said that Obama was qualified to be POTUS because Obama is a "Black man".  Oue!

    Parent
    correction: Edwards said that on Meet the Press (none / 0) (#113)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:50:26 PM EST
    (MTP not MIT) sorry!

    Parent
    Where I come from (none / 0) (#130)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:37:23 PM EST
    when you make a mistake you apologize. I don't think there is anyone out there that doesn't think giving the Bush the authority to do what he did in Iraq wasn't a mistake. We certainly can debate whether the person who did the fooling or the ones who were fooled were more responsible but I don't find it particularly productive at this juncture.

    I disagreed with Iraq. I am just explaining WHY I supported Edwards early on despite his vote and was critical of Clinton.

    Out of all three, I originally favored Obama because I feel our foreign policy decisions have led us to disaster after disaster. Votes like the Iran vote seem to me to be the height of hypocrisy. Furthermore, when I look at our foreign policy I see us aligning ourselves with folks like Osama, Chalabi, and Saddam when it is convenient for us and then decrying "who could have imagined" when it comes back to biting us in the backside. Don't even get me started on us throwing the Iranians elections to install the shah. The idea that we aren't liked in the ME because of "our freedoms" is the height of absurdity. It's our foreign policy. It needs to be scrapped. Is Obama's more "transparent" policy the answer? I'm not sure. The only thing I am sure of is status quo won't cut it.

    Parent

    Where I come from expecting to be admired for (none / 0) (#135)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:49:50 PM EST
    apologizing is downright immoral and

    (Edward's apology was a major part of his campaign and he and his supporters used it to trash Clinton)

    sort of like wanting to be admired for giving to charity

    same thing IMO - hope I made that clear now

    Parent

    MCM doesn't do nuance re: Clintons (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:12:55 PM EST
    Yes, Hillary said her vote was not for war, not for unilateral action, that it was to prompt Saddam Hussein to let UN inspectors into his country.  He did let them in; Little Boots demanded they leave before they were finished, probably bcz he knew they were finding nothing to support his war aims.

    He wanted to get his war on, in the worst way. He probably would have gone to war without the senate vote, but he might have gone in even  earlier and we wouldn't have had Blix's reports.

    Kerry and Edwards both voted for the resolution. Obama said he didn't know how he would have voted had he been in the Senate at the time. Then, in '04, he supported Bush's strategy. What would he have actually done had he been in the Senate? I have no idea; nor does anyone.  

    Agree with you, Sister of Ye.

    Parent

    She was always my first choice (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:08:13 PM EST
    Strong leader, vocal defender of reproductive rights, gay rights, children and families, tough on the issues, wonked to heck and back, confident she can do the job...why look elsewhere?

    I did research the other candidates.  I never considered Edwards seriously because I understood his time had come and gone and the press would never give him a fair shake.  At the time, the only things on the net you could find on Obama was glowing reports of the kind kindergarten teachers send home for special students.  (Well, that's changed a lot, hasn't it?  Hahaha!)

    Seriously, this was back when people criticized him and they said all the things I am saying now: not qualified, not experienced, not good for the party.  We are in so much trouble right now as a country.  Why he could not wait his turn, why he could not actively work to build his resume, was beyond me.  Still is, actually, though I understand ego as much as the next egomaniac.

    Parent

    And now (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:10:32 PM EST
    it's come down to:

    I don't want Chicago Politics in the White House.

    Period.  End of story.  

    Parent

    You and my best friend Chris (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:23:08 PM EST
    I loved Edward's populist message, but alas he disappointed me with making the endorsement.  I don't think Obama represents Edward's message.  

    When the debates started it was obvious that Hillary was the top and best candidate we have ever had for the presidency.  She has that quality that I describe as making governing accessible.  What she says is clear and lacks any of the words that makes her speech inaccessible.  I think that is why people like her.  They understand her.  This quality I have found among the people I most respect that work in government.  They make a real sincere effort to be clear.  

     Then my  daughter  and I started an email correspondence while she was doing a stint in a  national park in New Mexico and we would email each other articles and have great discussions.  We both had a dislike of Obama from the day he made that speech and everyone started swooning.  

    Then she started telling me how if she brought up Hillary among her friends people would attack her with little or no information and repeat the "message from the movement".  I found the same mentality among some neighbors and in the blogs.  

    I frankly am scared of the movement.  I do not like the way the got to this point and what I know people are capable of doing to keep such power.  Unless an effort is made to give Hillary a voice in the party that represents the millions who voted for her, frankly, I would prefer if the Dems lose.  A party should not be a monolith with such a concentration of power.  

    Parent

    Me neither (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:33:25 PM EST
    I was disappointed with Edwards as well. Oh well. Wasn't the first time and I daresay a pol disappointed me and I daresay it will be the last.

    I sincerely believe Clinton is a closer fit on policy and Obama espouses a closer fit if you believe him and think that he can change process. The thingis I DON'T think he can change the process. I think it is politically naive to believe the GOP will continue to do anything other than obstruct progress. Furthermore, from where I' sitting he can't even unify people on his own side of the aisle.

    Parent

    I so agree with you. (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Jane in CA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:14:33 PM EST
    After my very reluctant vote for Kerry and his subsequent loss to a sitting president with the lowest approval ratings ever, I swore to myself that I was going to understand exactly how the democratic party choses its candidates, rather than just assuming that the party leadership knew more than I about electability.

    I assumed that Clinton would be the presumptive nominee so I've been reading up on her since last year. As I've become more familiar with her positions and her proposed policies, I find the depth of her policy knowledge, and her ability to explain simply how she would implement these policies just remarkable. I have heard no other candidate talk as frankly or as coherently regarding how policy would translate to process.

    Her ideas on staunching the outsourcing hemorrhage, her ideas on stimulating the economy, on using alternative energy to create more jobs, on universal pre-kindergarten, her ability to explain how all this would be paid for ... she is incredible.  And watching videos of her speaking to editorial boards is awesome -- I believe that her hour long discussion with the editorial staff of the Indianapolis Star should be required viewing for any voter. I can't imagine how any thinking person could not be blown out of the water by her grasp of the issues, and the simple brilliance of her proposals to address them.

    And as for the primary process - who was it who said that there are two things you really don't ever want to know, and that is how laws and sausages are made? I'd add that watching how a democratic party presidential nominee is selected is another one of those things. How awful and squalid this process has been to watch, and how horrifying to see bloc after bloc of loyal democrats thrown off the train for no reason other than to support Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, Dean, et al personal power grabs.  

    The one surprise in all this is - again - Hillary Clinton, who soldiers on just as I would have expected, but who also provides the surprising grace notes to this campaign - her continuing graciousness to those who have stabbed her in the back, to those who have attempted to politically torpedo not just her campaign but her husband's legacy, to those who have demonized her as a woman and a human being. And not once has she sunk to her enemies' level; not once has she become petulant or accusatory. I always knew she was a fighter. Now I know that she is grace under pressure personified as well.

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    Dem win more important (none / 0) (#9)
    by Rashomon66 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:38:49 PM EST
    In the end, this is about getting a Democrat back in the White House.

    Thank you for that. The only way we can win is honor the process and vote for whomever wins the primary.

    Knickers in a bunch - talkingpoint of the day (none / 0) (#65)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:06:51 PM EST
    for the Obama 400.

    Have seen in it quite a few places.

    Let's work on our cliches (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by lambert on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:41:12 PM EST
    It's "knickers in a twist..."

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    Yes (none / 0) (#131)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:39:58 PM EST
    panties get bunched and knickers get twisted.  I'm now ready to troll.

    Parent
    And, got links? (none / 0) (#126)
    by lambert on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM EST
    I'm interested in tracking these snow-clones....

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    I sometimes wonder (none / 0) (#123)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:16:14 PM EST
    if the Democratic Party will ever overcome the moral stain of not finding a way to stop the war via withholding funding or threats of impeachment or something, rather than punting until the presidential election.

    I'm so sorry your family has suffered such a burden and I hope for your brother's continued safety until he returns home for good.

    The Hillary/Obama ticket (none / 0) (#129)
    by OxyCon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    ...was the smartest thing the Dems could have done this election. Having the seasoned veteran at the top of the ticket with the up and coming star as her running mate.
    But Obama got greedy. He started dreaming about putting his feet on the desk in the Oval Office.