home

Where We Agree With Daily Kos

First and foremost, we agree that we must all come together and wholeheartedly support and work hard for the Democratic nominee for President as well as all the Democratic candidates for elective office.

Second, we agree with this statement:

It's clear this mess of a nomination process the Democrats devised is in desperate need of a top-bottom overhaul.

Comments closed

< Popular Vote Totals: Hillary's Still Ahead | Details Announced for May 31 Meeting on FL-MI Delegates >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Too late (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:42:46 PM EST
    Patriots fans said "sure the tuck rule sucks, we'll change it after we get done gloating."

    It's too late.

    You got me there (none / 0) (#8)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    As a political statement I hate it, but as a pats fan, well.... lets just say we can be blinded by our sports love here in Boston.

    Parent
    Obviously (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:56:21 PM EST
    If the objective here is to get everyone back on the same team, a consensus that the roolz are lame in and of itself, is going to remain incredibly insufficient.

    If that wasn't the objective, then at least I had fun with my strawman.


    Parent

    the objective (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:01 PM EST
    is to figure out how the person who is winning the pop vote and the SD's are swinging to Obama. I can find almost no reason for an SD to commit to Obama based on pop vote and momentum. As an Obama supporter, my vote is my vote, as an SD their vote is the collective, no? So why would any SD commit to Obama right now?

    Parent
    M-O-N-E-Y (none / 0) (#196)
    by hookfan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:20 PM EST
    funny (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:44:10 PM EST
    i was actually coming here hoping there was an open thread to have this very discussion. On one side they are following the rules, they are following the rules on the other side as well. The votes need to be counted and the party needs to commit to its voters that the system will be changed and fixed by late 2009. It is really embarassing to be a demo these days

    Same as it ever was N/T (none / 0) (#210)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:28:42 PM EST
    I really, really, really, want to make an effort (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:12 PM EST
    but, I have serious concerns about our prospects afterwards if we end up w/a Bush-type, no clue prez who can't pick up the ball and run with it.

    Heh. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:34 PM EST
    You are a devil, BTD - you showed me that I partially agree with teh Great Orange Satan!

    Actually, I totally agree. But as for unifying and supporting the Democratic nominee, I just need the Obama supporters, the Obama campaign, and Obama himself...to go first.

    I'll be right behind them. ;-)

    I do get the feeling... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    ... that Obama wants (or, at the very least, knows he needs) the support of the other half of the party. As opposed to the Kossacks, who only want it's surrender.

    At any rate, I do share the sentiment for overhauling the whole process, preferably in the direction of an all-primary system with a lesser degree of proporionality, and of course, no superdelegates.

    Parent

    I'm all in favor (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:57:45 PM EST
    of massive primary reform. In fact, what I want is so massive that I doubt it will ever happen. (Such is life as a lefty.)

    As for Obama himself, I believe he is coming to the belated realization that he needs HRC's voters after all.

    Whether he will actually begin reaching out to us in some meaningful way at this point, well...I guess we'll see.

    I'm not holding my breath.

    Parent

    "massive primary reform" (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    for some reason I think that is about as likely as the George W. Bush Institute for Research and Development of Alternative Fuels

    Parent
    I Agree (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:26:42 PM EST
    That reform is necessary I, also, agree that the Dems will talk about reform and then kick the can down the road just like everything else.

    I have no plans to visit DKos again because as far as I'm concerned they lost all credibility months ago. Why visit a site when you have absolutely no trust in what they write.

    As far as uniting behind Obama, the best I can say is "We'll see."

    Parent

    I am in the same place (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:28:24 PM EST
    I'm glad I found you here. (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:40:27 PM EST
    I never left Daily Kos, but backed away a bit at times.  I found it a bit overwhelming at times, and not in a good way.  And I said so and was attacked for it.

    But it seems ot be geting a little better, form my perspective.  Noentheless, I respect your position.

    Talk Left seems to have a growing progressive populist movement.  Building that is important.  You always were a good voice for left issues.  I'm glad you still are involved.

    I rarely read front pagers at Dkos.  Inside diaries are more fun.

    Parent

    Hey Tom Glad You're Here (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:33 PM EST
    Have missed some of the people from Dkos but a lot of my favorites like you have started coming here. I much prefer the level of discussion here and this is probably where I'll stay.

    Parent
    don't give away our secret location though TomP (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
    let them think Hillary44 is their competition. We are here for a little respite from their "reality"

    Parent
    LOL!! (none / 0) (#141)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:11 PM EST
    I promise.  

    :-)

    Parent

    Whoops , replied to myself. (none / 0) (#147)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:54:43 PM EST
    :-)

    Anyway, I loved your comment.  Your secret location si safe with me.  :-)

    Parent

    was there ever more need (5.00 / 10) (#109)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:21 PM EST
    for voting reform than after 2000?  And did we get it?  No.  We got Diebold, even more open to fraud and tampering.

    They won't reform the system in any meaningful way.

    As for these calls to unify the party--excuse me, but aren't you  from the site that, last time I checked, still allowed folks to call my candidate a stupid c-word, a b-word, and every other word out there to denigrate her?  Didn't you say I was a racist hillbilly, or an hysterical, elderly woman, for supporting my candidate?  I should forget that because you tell me it's time to come together?  You don't get to make those sorts of calls and I am not that stupid.  Right up there with "I'm sorry I beat you, baby."

    Jeralyn and BTD saying it is one thing.  They certainly have the high road.  Others, not so much.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#148)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:55:24 PM EST
    The racist speak was only last night.

    Parent
    Was that before or after... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    he fired those researchers only to be forced to rehire them cause it hit the news right after the SOTU speech?

    Parent
    He should have thought of that... (5.00 / 14) (#36)
    by dianem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:13 PM EST
    ...when he was calling Clinton a lying, arrogant person who was desperatly throwing "everything but the kitchen sink" at him. Or, better yet, when he chose to not defend the Clinton's and their supporter's as cheating racists.

    Parent
    Yep, DK somehow missed that the message (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:51:04 PM EST
    was supposed to be hope and unity.  All I saw over there was hate and misogyny.  In fact I am still mystified how Obama-love generated so much vitriol toward others.

    Parent
    Or (5.00 / 7) (#160)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:03 PM EST
    when he made a huge deal about the "darkening of Obama's face in the Clinton ad," or when he let his people claim the WVWV was voter suppressing -- for Clinton, or when they made the huge deal about the fake Mickey Kantor video without even verifying if it was real, or, or, or, the list just keeps going on.

    The KOS folks are like my spoiled nephew.  He is a total a*shole to everyone...until he needs something, then he's as sweet as can be.

    Well, sorry, no dice.

    Parent

    The 'darkening photo' post (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:43:51 PM EST
    was when I knew it was over for me there.
    I was appalled - a complete credibility ender.

    Parent
    Sweet surrender.. (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Rainsong on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:34 PM EST
    "Surrender" will happen with some, they will come home again no matter what he does, or doesn't, do or say. But will they be enough? I don't know.

    I'm genuinely sorry BTD for your sake, (but not for Obama's, and certainly not the Party's sake), I wish I could make the effort.

    Over-hauling the all-primary system for the future might be a nice idea, but its too late for this year.  It was still a back-room Party deal, and any system can be gamed by back-room Party deals.

    I used to think Hillary was too loyal to ever take it to the Convention, but now I think its the best idea for it to be thrashed out once and for all.
    I would like to see the power-struggle play out by ALL the rules, including the one that says the Convention is the place to resolve conflict.

    I also want to see which way some of the down-ticket Dems feel, so I can make a more informed decision on down-ticket races.

    Parent

    This reminds me of michelle obama saying (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:23 PM EST
    nice things to Hillary that she probably doesn't mean.  obama is once again trying to game the system thru surrogates.  Believe me if Kos didn't know, at some level, obama cannot win the GE, he wouldn't be playing nicey nice. Too much water under that bridge.

    Parent
    No doubt some humility is in order (none / 0) (#80)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:50 PM EST
    Going back to earlier sentiments, IMHO, the first step is agreeing that the primaries should be viewed thru the prism of politics.  Next step is agreeing on our course from that point forward.  To me, it's a now or (maybe) later choice.  Go w/the coalition forged by Hillary that closely resembles the one that was last successful.  Don't deny it, it was - (snark w/a little truth to it) the original "first black president," Mr. Bill, and force as much as we can get thru w/o compromise and yield where necessary.  Or, take a chance now, hope the new guy will do the do, and force as much as we can get thru w/o compromise and yield where necessary.  My two cents, we're gonna have to yield a little more than we may want to, because one, the groundwork for yielding has already been laid, and two (don't hate on me, I'm black,) the reality is there's gonna be a lotta second-guessing IF Obama actually becomes president.  See MSM coverage (refer to knowledge gained in first step.)  If O's supporters can acknowledge the risk, their behavior, we can talk about what we do afterwards as adults.

    Parent
    the groundwork for yielding has already been laid (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:41 PM EST
    this is where he wasted our chances.

    This should have been a whole progressive in your face FDR (like Clinton on O'lielly) progressive Dem election...why did he run that bipartisan schtick?

    Why lay the groundwork for yielding to Republicans  if he wasn't run as a puppet candidate. There was NO reason to talk like that. Nobody believes in that Purple stuff.

    Parent

    I hear ya (see me as I half-yak,) and agree. (none / 0) (#181)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:42 PM EST
    but we gotta approach this from reality.  Neither Dems nor Reps have a plurality, we're screwed until WE get a little more.  How do we get there?

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:00:04 PM EST
    We get there by arguing that the Democratic agenda is right for America and that we haven't gotten all these good things because of Republican obstruction.

    We don't get there by blaming "partisanship," as if both sides are to blame, and suggesting that the parties will magically come together to fix everything that's broken.  Because then when it doesn't happen, it's not the other party's fault for obstructing the process, it's your fault for not delivering on the promised unity.

    It's called the politics of contrast.  BTD and I are two of its biggest proponents.

    Parent

    I wholeheartedly agree. (none / 0) (#240)
    by vicndabx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:34:35 PM EST
    We as a party got to get w/the program.  At some point Dems are gonna have to take a stand w/an agenda and force the county to make a g*ddam* decision.  I don't care if it's a 51/49 decision, but we have to give the ideals a chance in the context of the political climate, whatever that may be.  We keep losing cuz we don't put it out there definitively.  We all should be clear on the things we feel our pols are able to flake on, so we can be clear on those things they should be firm on.  Give em some wiggle room, but not the whole g*ddam* building.  If not, what the h*ll's the point?  and no, i don't watch the hills.

    Parent
    is this a prelude to the rumor that Obama is in (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by athyrio on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:17 PM EST
    the process of taking over the DNC with his own team of supporters?? I sure hope not...

    Would you be talkin' about this (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:05:03 PM EST
    rumor that sounds like more than a rumor?

    Parent
    We could (5.00 / 1) (#243)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:49:29 PM EST
    end up going nationwide with Chicago-style politics. All of the Emily's lists in the world wouldn't get a woman in office unless the back room says she can run. I don't have any confidence that the "Obama Party" would be friendly to women candidates.

    Parent
    How Does One Take Over The DNC? (none / 0) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:19:16 PM EST
    Get your people on it (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:30:59 PM EST
    in key positions so they decide which lower level candidates to bring up through the ranks with money and support.  Can't get anywhere without it.

    Buy the DNC with money and donor lists and control the money,money,money....

    Parent

    aaah...money! Thanks for the info...But, I am (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:06:37 PM EST
    not sure even money can help the DNC right now....
    too many disillusioned people.

    Parent
    It's a 4-stage process (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM EST
    First, the nominee (you may have seen that word in years past; it means the person selected by the convention to campaign for president as per the Democratic Party) selects a new party chairman.

    Second, the nominee (see above) helps select a group of financial people that represent both the on-going funding of the DNC & the developing funding for the candidate's campaign.

    Third, the nominee (above) works with the 50 state Democratic Party Chairs to coordinate the nat'l, state & local operations.

    Fourth, all of the above meet with the grandees, poobahs & factotums of the Senate & Congressional campaign committees to coordinate activities.

    As you can quickly see, Sen. Obama will have some difficulties making any of this function smoothly because approximately 50 percent of those folks may "have issues."  Nice touch, hunh?

    Run Unity Pony, run.  I say slap some wings on that equine, screw in a shiny aluminum horn & call it the Unity Unicorn--just about as likely.

    Parent

    If You Are Slapping On Wings, Then You Can (none / 0) (#163)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:18 PM EST
    the unity of icarus.  :)

    Thanks for the info...sounds like a bunch 'o work; and if I was obama, I would keep my powder dry on that one.

    Parent

    Let's fight, let's insult, let's (5.00 / 15) (#6)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:48 PM EST
    disrespect, let's ignore, let's play dirty, let's disenfranchise voters and on and on...then, let's all join hands for the "common good" and all be one blob of dems voting for dems, devoted to dem causes and blah, blah, blah.I've heard it all before, done it, lived it, voted while holding my nose, thought nothing this year could derail getting a dem in the white house, until.....I don't want to play that game anymore. I've said it before, don't insult me and then want my vote..I'd rather not.

    I'm sure there are some on the other side (2.00 / 1) (#99)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:34:51 PM EST
    Who would say the exact same things.

    But I'll be honest, however it goes down... I'll be voting for the Democratic nominee in November without any reservations.

    Why vote for somebody who shares 5% of the ideals as your candidate when you have the option to vote for somebody who shares 95% of the same ideals.

    We have two wonderful candidates- their policy positions are so similar that if you took the brain of one out and put it in the other, I'd probably have trouble telling them apart.

    Parent

    Again, this is not about that "my candidate (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:38:04 PM EST
    won or lost the nomination" This goes longer and deeper and as personal as it gets to some of us. I am not a disillusioned voter, I am very informed one and very angry. Insult me, then vote for me. NOT!

    Parent
    They still (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:50:14 PM EST
    have some kind of cluelessness about all this don't they? This has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with Obama. Obama is the problem not any attachment to Hillary. You know what? If they nominated Biden tomorrow I would be happy as a clam, or Gore or lots of other Dems.

    Parent
    What's really weird is that (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:55:33 PM EST
    Obama was not their first choice.  They were Edwards guys over there.  That's why it really threw me for a loop that they became so hostile toward Clinton supporters.  We had two candidates remaining and had to choose between them.  Why was one choice so vilified and the other deified?  It was bizarre.

    Parent
    I'm not so sure (none / 0) (#187)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:13:09 PM EST
    I'll be completely honest: I know some on the other side who would claim the exact opposite.  But there are also lots of people on both sides who also would not be happy if they nominated anybody else.

    I honestly don't have a problem with either candidate.  They are both great candidates, and in my opinion it is really just unfortunate that they both had to come along at the same time.

    Parent

    Party divisions (2.00 / 1) (#151)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:38 PM EST
    The more I hear statements like this, the less I can believe that it isn't because somebody's candidate is going to win or lose the nomination.

    My horse left the race months ago, so I've had to listen to both sides as I wait until November to cast my vote.  I still don't understand where this whole "insult me" rhetoric comes from.  Neither candidate has done any insulting as far as I've interpreted things.  The closest you can come is by taking horribly out of context a few words one or the other has said- but that really isn't doing anybody justice.

    The only insults I see come from the media or fanatical supporters on either side, neither of which carries much weight with me.

    Nothing I have seen convinces me that either Clinton or Obama would have the anything but the utmost respect for me even if I choose to vote for their opponent.

    Parent

    Is this the best you can do? (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Mari on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:28 PM EST
    The bewildered innocent act doesn't work anymore. Obama supporters really need to be more imaginative.

    Parent
    Lack of respect (none / 0) (#219)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:43:10 PM EST
    If you are going to try to insult me in order to disregard anything I have to say, it is going to be difficult to have a reasonable discussion.

    I would certainly love to discuss any areas in which you disagree with me, but if you don't have any issues to raise then I don't believe your post has much value.

    Personally insulting me is a very poor way of trying to discredit my ideas. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    Parent

    I Wouldn't....one is a race-baiter, the other (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:03:30 PM EST
    isn't.  One is concerned for ALL voters, the other is not.  One actually knows policies, the other doesn't.  One actually cares about America, the other...iffy at best.  So, no offense, but I cannot buy into that argument.

    Parent
    I would dispute (none / 0) (#180)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:24 PM EST
    Everything that you listed there.

    If you want to pick one of those issues in particular to discuss further, I would be happy to.

    Parent

    Beware....The Blob...It Will Suck You In (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:46 PM EST
    and there is no way out.

    Parent
    I am (5.00 / 17) (#9)
    by sas on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:33 PM EST
    not interested in 'coming together'.

    I believe Obama is a demagogue. I think he is a narcissist who, without any resume to speak of, actually believes he is qualified for the job.  I see a cult of personality surrounding him, with his supporters believing he can do no wrong.

    Sorry, I believe he is George W Bush, an arrogant no-nothing, with a D beside his name.

    Further, I will not forgive his sexist, racist campaign, and I sure as hell am not voting for him.  

    Not now , not ever...


    Im taking my ball (2.25 / 4) (#16)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:59:41 PM EST
    and jacks home so none of you can play, if you dont support Hillary.

    Mr. McCain understands.

    Parent

    Good for McCain! (5.00 / 9) (#24)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:08 PM EST
    Now if we could only get someone on the Dem side to understand.

    Parent
    Do (5.00 / 10) (#34)
    by sas on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:08:42 PM EST
    whatever you want in regard to voting , Dondee - I will.  That's our choice.

    Oh yeah and about my jacks and ball - yes I'm taking them home.

    Damn right I am.

    Barack is still a Gawd-awful candidate....so I'm not voting for him.

    I don't kiss and make-up with abusers.  

    Get your own jacks.

    Parent

    Speaking of jacks... (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:15 PM EST
    it's gonna be harder for Obama to get the Jills, too.

    Parent
    And (2.00 / 4) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
    what exactly was so good about the last 8 years that you're willing to risk more of it.

    My suggestion is to get over the entitled, middle class, temper tantrum and try to look at the bigger picture concerning the future of the U.S and it's place in the world.

    Parent

    Hey we survived the lst 8 years (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:21:44 PM EST
    We can survive 4 more with McCain and the Dems in Congress.

    Parent
    Yes (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:26:24 PM EST
    you did. And of course that's all that matters.

    Parent
    I havnt seen (1.00 / 2) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:54 PM EST
    this many self-sabotaging tantrums since they closed the mall and all the computers around town crashed.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:27 PM EST
    I am not taking a tantrum.  I am calm and reserved, and I have had to think this out over the last few months using reason and logic.

    Obama is bad for the country.

    We've already had a president who got on the job training.  We can't afford another.

    Parent

    Please Find A Dictionary And Look Up The Word (none / 0) (#154)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    counterproductive. It might provide you with some necessary insight.

    Parent
    Speak for yourself (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:19 PM EST
    There are plenty of soldiers who did not survive the last 8 years.

    Parent
    You think (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:02 PM EST
    soldiers will survive under Obama?

    Right.

    Parent

    Hillary is the better candidate (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:24:29 PM EST
    She may be (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jondee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:14 PM EST
    but is that a reason to empower the homicidal lunatics and theives and end-timers that are calling the shots now?

    Parent
    Who are you talking about?! (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    It's the new politics (5.00 / 5) (#139)
    by standingup on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:26 PM EST
    We are to break with the old politics of fear that uses 9/11 to get our votes by new politics of fear of John McCain to get our vote.

    Parent
    It's sadly true... (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:22:16 PM EST
    McCain is the new "9/11! 9/11!".

    Parent
    Yeah, it has stunk like a skunk. (5.00 / 7) (#68)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:05 PM EST
    A inexperienced politician of scant record and a big bankroll, who relied on his many, mysterious, unaccountable advisors to create and implement policies and managed to skate along for six years because his own party refused to investigate anything or exercise any kind of oversight.

    Noperooni.  Do not wanna do that again.  

    Parent

    entitled middle class temper tantrum? (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:55 PM EST
    the unity ponies are here!

    Oh, and last I checked, it was the entitled middle class that's voting for Obama anyway.

    Parent

    Hah! (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    That's how they'll change our minds, insult us enough, and we'll vote for anybody.

    Parent
    you expect over 17 million people (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:17 PM EST
    to get over it? You suggest it so nicely, I'm sure it's gonna work wonders . . .

    Parent
    "entitled, middle class, temper tantrum" (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    god
    project much?


    Parent
    your candidate and his supporters (none / 0) (#113)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:41:14 PM EST
    could stop telling us we are not wanted. you could have michelle stop saying america is mean blah, blah blah. you know there are so many things that could be done besides empty threats. guess, they don't impress!

    Parent
    at lunch today (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    I was lucky enough to sit in earshot of a couple of Obama supporters.
    it spoiled my lunch.  literally.
    all the progress I had made toward reconciliation was erased.
    I wanted to kill them.


    Parent
    ok maybe not "kill" them (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:55 PM EST
    maybe just dump my pasta on their heads.

    Parent
    I can imagine (none / 0) (#159)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    what you had to listen to. I've heard it all myself in similar situations. I don't know why I'm still shocked by it, but I am.

    Parent
    at 1 pm (none / 0) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:05:21 PM EST
    I would have been willing to work phones for McCain.

    Parent
    and those ugly attitudes are not going (none / 0) (#189)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:15:06 PM EST
    away no matter how many unity ponies they have.

    Parent
    what did they say (none / 0) (#242)
    by DFLer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:41:57 PM EST
    to spoil your lunch?

    Parent
    maybe a hug with a tree (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:09:40 PM EST
    would help, I have an acacia tree in my yard...

    Parent
    Furthermore (5.00 / 9) (#10)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:34 PM EST
    Is the Obama blog admitting that everything that needs to changed about the primary system is the same everything that gave Obama all of the advantages and Clinton none?

    If so, if Obama is the best candidate, why would they want to change the system?

    Flawed logic unless you can admit the garbage system has produced well.... .


    Question for 2012 (none / 0) (#55)
    by kpatton1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:18:28 PM EST
    Say we all pitch in and try to come up with a solution to fix the primary system.  And then all the candidates agree to this new system ahead of time, sign forms, etc for the new rules in place for 2012.  

    Suddenly late in the primary season the second place candidate raise an objection to how the whole process is being run.  Should we always A) Change the system mid-stride or B) Finish the nomination as initially agreed before adjusting the system for the next cycle

    We will never have a system that satisfies everybody, but we can try our best and come up with a system that everybody agrees on ahead of time.

    However- it will never be fair to completely change the rules mid-game, when nobody raised objections ahead of time.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:49 PM EST
    and Obama should be ashamed for trying to do that.


    Parent
    Agreed, no more Brazile amendments (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Cream City on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:14 PM EST
    as happened late this time, with changing the rule that stripped MI and FL of only half their delegates.  And it better revert back to that, erasing her last-minute manipulation of the rules committee, when it meets again in ten days.

    Parent
    but brazile and gang will be back (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:42:10 PM EST
    and they won't treat us any better. abused wives all know this.

    Parent
    I Read That Brazile Wants To Be Chairperson Of (5.00 / 2) (#214)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    the DNC. Wonder if Obama will give it to her.

    Parent
    Correct me if I'm wrong, (none / 0) (#78)
    by zfran on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:23 PM EST
    but the constitution says that the person coming in second become vp. At least that's how I read it!

    Parent
    My guess is that (none / 0) (#64)
    by riddlerandy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:49 PM EST
    Hillary folks had more input the primary process over the past several years than anyone with the Obama campaign.  

    Parent
    Your guess would be wrong (none / 0) (#157)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST
    And your source is . . . . (none / 0) (#224)
    by riddlerandy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:50:22 PM EST
    No (5.00 / 11) (#11)
    by koshembos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    we agree that we must all come together and wholeheartedly support and work hard for the Democratic nominee for President as well as all the Democratic candidates for elective office.

    Not me, I am not comfortable supporting race baiters, sexists, haters and fascists. Obama is dangerous to the party and the country and I cannot vote for that.

    I don't know (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:54:48 PM EST
    How can I, in good conscience, get behind a nominee (if that nominee is Obama) who I think, in my heart of hearts, will be a lousy one-term president, and damage the Democratic brand for at least a generation?

    My gut tells me he cannot even begin to fathom how to deal with all the problems we face, and may just end up making them worse.

    Too, if the Dem Congress goes along with him and things don't go well, they'll start to go in 2 years.

    I just can't vote for Obama.  

    Heh (5.00 / 20) (#13)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:55:19 PM EST
    Now Daily Kos wants to start laying the groundwork for unity, after they've let themselves outdo Andrew Sullivan in terms of sheer Hillary-hatred?

    There was a time, earlier in this primary, when it was quite clear Markos was thinking pragmatically and laying the groundwork for the site to support whoever the nominee might be.  At some point, like Josh Marshall, he decided to give in to his constituency and move into full-bore "Hillary is a GOP-lite racist" mode.

    I used to write diary after diary at Daily Kos, including pro-Obama diaries.  Markos once based a front-page diary on one of my comments.  And as it turns out, I haven't been back there in several months now and I wonder if I ever will.

    There's little wonder that I see so many women at this site make analogies to abusive husbands begging for another chance.  While I'm a sucker who will vote for Obama in spite of it all, I have my doubts that Daily Kos will be able to unring this particular bell.

    Indeed (5.00 / 7) (#23)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:01:50 PM EST
    Something snapped in February. I think kos decided it was over, and went nuclear on Hillary, like the hordes wanted him to well before.

    Parent
    I think BTD's post has two subjects (5.00 / 15) (#43)
    by dk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:12:23 PM EST
    The first is Kos himself.  I respect that BTD and Jeralyn have a personal friendship with Markos and thus defend him.  However, with regard to Markos' credibility as a professional blogger, I think it's uncontroversial to say that it is completely shot.  The same, of course, goes for the other Obama bloggers, including Josh Marshall and, particularly sadly, Atrios.  The smears and double standards they have propogated against Hillary Clinton can't be taken back.  While, of course, they do and will write some things that many of us agree with, they simply can't be trusted anymore.  Heck, I'm sure even George W. Bush once in a while says things I agree with, but that doesn't mean I trust him or respect his opinion.

    Regarding Obama, I am waiting to see if he actually takes a position on anything before I decide whether or not to vote for him.  As Jeralyn has pointed out many times, he is on both sides of too many issues for me to know where he stands on pretty much anything.  I have voted Democrat for the last 20 years (as long as I have been old enough to vote), but I vote Democrat because I believe in the importance of achieving the goals of the Democratic party for the long-term.  If I do not think Obama will contribute to that, I will not vote for him.

    Parent

    But their credibility isn't shot (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:23:00 PM EST
    History is written by the winners.

    Unless something drastic happens, the narrative of this primary is and always will be that the Democratic primary voters rejected the flagrant race-baiting of Bill and Hillary Clinton, aside from a few sad states in Appalachia.

    Until they renounce that narrative it's very very hard to join hands with them.  I may vote for Obama but I'm not going to be part of authoring that sort of sick and twisted history.

    Parent

    It's too late for Obama to put his money (5.00 / 8) (#179)
    by Valhalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:08:15 PM EST
    where his mouth is, for me.

    The unity thing does nothing for me.  Unity to me is two or more groups coming together, not one group trying to beat the hell out of the other with reprehensible words and tactics and then trying to hold their hands afterwards.

    I was trying to imagine what Obama could do make me relent and vote for him in the GE.  And there's nothing.  It's too late.  I'm not able to trust what he says.  He doesn't have a strong enough record to back up what he says he'll do.  Words alone, even had be been perfectly consistent throughout the campaign, are not enough, given his actions (or rather lack of action) in failing to rein in his hate-filled, misogynist supporters who disdain just about everything I am (female, working class background, Clinton supporter).

    The armageddon scenario also does nothing for me, not anymore.  I won't vote for McCain and won't rejoice if he wins.  But I've voted Democrat in 6 elections and I keep waiting for the DNC to give two bits about my concerns.  I do understand the argument for coming together, and in fact made it many times to Nader supporters in 2000.  But there comes a time when you have to ask yourself, can I really lend myself to this bad choice, just because the other choice is worse?  By supporting Obama I would just be supporting all the things I hate, and have spent a lot of my life working against.

    The most obvious is that gender-baiting can help you win an election.  I just can't go there.  But the less obvious is the way the country in general has slid down and away from reason and intelligence into superficial, sound-bite, American-Idol voting slickness.  No equal time, no analysis, no reasoned argument, just shouting, shouting shouting that I'm right and you're wrong.

    I've only known about TL a short time, and I respect the opinions of BTD and Jeralyn immensely, and for making the site a place of real discussion.  I respect the opinions of anyone who does feel party unity is the more important thing.  But I just can't play anymore.

    Parent

    Atrios (none / 0) (#146)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:54:38 PM EST
    was doing a good job of being even-handed until he voted for Obama in PA.  I was a daily visitor to his site since its inception, and have been saddened to let it go.

    In in posting header on the WV and KY elections, he says only "People vote too much."  I'm not absolutely sure what he means, but I don't think it's very nice or democratic.

    Parent

    it's a nice statement (5.00 / 15) (#17)
    by Turkana on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:02 PM EST
    except that his arguments, and the tone of his arguments, have, for months, run counter to it. the whole "coup by superdelegate" idea, which betrayed either a lack of understanding of the rules, or a desire to change them in the middle of the game, to de-legitimize a possible clinton win.

    Nice to see that DK has (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Lahdee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:17 PM EST
    caught up with you BTD.

    Hillary may take fight to convention (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    This Is A Great Idea And I Will Be Truly P.O.'d (5.00 / 8) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:07:11 PM EST
    if this thing doesn't go to the convention.  Time to air the dirty laundry, and that is just the place...whatever doesn't kill ya, makes ya stronger.

    Parent
    I think that's why she went to Florida (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:05 PM EST
    Her speech was great. I don't think she's going to accept a phony "half the delegates" proposal.

    People vote so they can have an impact on the election. Halving the delegates doesn't represent the will of the people.

    Parent

    I Am Sure Hillary Will Be More Warmly Rec'd (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:10:06 PM EST
    than obama.  There was talk about alot of protesting that was supposed to transpire in FLA.
    The general public needs to see these sorts of things to learn what EXACTLY is going on.

    Parent
    I want nothing to do with Daily Obama. (5.00 / 11) (#22)
    by masslib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:01:20 PM EST


    He can go on about unity all he likes... (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by outsider on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:03:02 PM EST
    but it's just empty rhetoric if, in the same breath, he goes on to imply that the "Clinton people" are trying to win by changing the rules (presumably he has MI and FL in mind here).  Dems need to push back on this talking point very hard.  It is not changing the rules if the Rules and Bylaws Committee seats the FL and MI delegates.  And it is not changing the rules if the superdelegates give the nomination to Hillary in spite of Obama's pledged delgate lead.  The rules allow both of these things to happen.  If you were interested in unity you wouldn't suggest that the only way for HRC to win is to steal the nom/cheat.  That insinuation sets the Dem party up for a massive split should HRC in fact win.

    Anyway.  Ride on Unity Pony.

    My take (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:34 PM EST
    He's trying to get people back to his site.

    Let's face it, like the networks, my guess is that he has lost traffic.  Less traffic - less revenue.

    Then, if he really is working closely with the Obama campaign, well, who knows what's in store for him.

    It's all about the money.

    Parent

    I don't think (5.00 / 6) (#166)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:47 PM EST
    it's about bring people back to his site as much as it's about making sure Obama wins in the GE.  They've (Kos, Obama etal) have finally realized how pissed off we are. They may not truly understand why we're so mad, and how they might be directly responsible for it, but they know they need us in Nov. to beat McCain.

    So all the talk of unity, and trying to scare us with Roe v Wade (because of course all of Hillary's supporters are old women), is their all-thumbs attempt to bring us into the fold.

    Until they realize their own roles in hurting Hillary, her supporters and the party, I'm not giving them the time of day.  Sometimes tough love is the only way to get people see the error of their ways.

    Parent

    The nominating process is this way for reasons (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:30 PM EST
    Back in the day, it seemed impossible for an unknown candidate to get a campaign started & funded without backroom, backdoor, backslapping connections.  The proportional allocation of delegates per congressional district was so that a person could campaign in good faith, score over 15 percent of the vote or caucus & get some early delegates.  It clearly made it possible for a person who was not part of the establishment to get started.

    The statewide assigned proportional allocation of party leaders & elected officials was to ensure that the local regulars could still be assured of a presence at the convention--even if some upstart swept away a large percentage of the vote or caucus.

    The superdelegates were established as a fallback to make sure that the party could change the nominee at the convention if a putative "winner" suddenly became dead, a criminal, a closet GOoPer, or a newt.

    It coulda', woulda', shoulda' worked.  But, the problem is as per Shakespeare's Marc Antony:

    Friends, Democrats, countrymen, lend me your ears;
    I come to dismiss Clinton, not to praise her.
    The evil that people do lives after them;
    The good is oft interred with their campaigns;
    So let it be with Clinton. The noble Obama
    Hath told you Clinton was ambitious:
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault;
    And grievously hath Clinton answer'd it.
    Here, under leave of Obama and the rest,--
    For Obama is an honorable man;
    So are they all, all honorable men,--
    Come I to speak at Clinton's fall from grace.
    She was my friend, faithful and just to me:
    But Obama says she was ambitious;
    And Obama is an honorable man.

    [My changes italicized]

    that was awsum (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:41 PM EST
    I am stealing and reusing that.


    Parent
    You're welcome (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:04 PM EST
    If you're gonna' plagiarize, steal from the best.

    Parent
    Try this one... (none / 0) (#114)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:41:16 PM EST
    On Helen next :)

    Parent
    Gorgeous George doth protest too much. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by wurman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:05:49 PM EST
    Exactly what Donald said. (5.00 / 7) (#37)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:25 PM EST
    I wish I was allowed to say what I really think of Markos and his followers, but I would be immediately banned if I did. Short version - the thought of unity with that crowd makes my skin crawl.

    I Don'tThinkSo (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by Missblu on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:32 PM EST
     I think Sas has said it well.  They stole it from her with the tactic of the suspension of the states and the arrogance displayed has been incredible. I see the Chicago players with big smiles on their faces.

    No thanks Bama.    

    Saluting Donald From Hawaii.... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:45 PM EST


    I have no doubt. (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Faust on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:58 PM EST
    That the massive overhaul the DNC comes up with will be in need of a massive overhaul.

    Here's a reform (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:14:44 PM EST
    No more weighted voting of any kind. That means no more delegates. Or, assign delegates after the fact based on votes.

    So...campaign in California and New York? (none / 0) (#59)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:20:20 PM EST
    Doesn't that run the risk of selecting candidates that get massacred in the Electoral College?

    Parent
    Simple principle (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    No vote should be worth any more or less than mine.

    Parent
    Yes... (none / 0) (#125)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:47:29 PM EST
    But completely out of step with our Constitution.

    We don't select Presidents based on the popular vote...or anything resembling the popular vote. So the most likely result of a having a nomination process that uses the popular vote as the sole metric is that the Democrats stop winning Presidential elections.

    I'm not sure that the kind of reform we need. As long as the Electoral College exists, it seems like we should account for it somehow.

    Parent

    I disagree (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:49:53 PM EST
    The Democratic party should be as democratic as possible. No more vote dilution. Period.

    Parent
    Does your proposal count (none / 0) (#192)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:18:55 PM EST
    votes from Puerto Rico, Guam et al.?

    Parent
    I think we should weight votes exactly like e (none / 0) (#197)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:37 PM EST
    electoral college votes in the GE. So we wind up with the candidadte who can win 270 ec votes in the GE and win the WH.

    Being able to rack up all those delegates in little red caucus statse makes him the winner. Yet makes him the loser in the GE: currently way behind McCain

    Parent

    the electoral college (none / 0) (#244)
    by DFLer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:54:19 PM EST
    I agree. The electoral college should be reformed too, in the Constitution....the most undemocratic system. #2 is the US Senate

    Parent
    National primaries and no more caucuses (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by stefystef on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:14:49 PM EST
    I know many are attached to their caucuses, but it's really antiquated and doesn't fully represent their state.

    Perhaps a caucuses for picking delegates, but not candidates.

    And a national primary season in 3 months, split the country in 4 parts and mix up who goes first.  Take the power away from Iowa and New Hampshire.  

    And, dare I say it, winner take all.  Obama got more delegates from the caucus wins than Hillary with the big state wins because of the strange distribution of pledged delegates.

    And no more super delegates.  Enough placating the insiders.  Let's keep it to a REAL democracy, shall we?

    Yes, winner take all, and a shorter (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:16:55 PM EST
    calendar. Pick the order randomly.

    Parent
    MarkL (none / 0) (#85)
    by americanincanada on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:23 PM EST
    You are a geniius. LOL

    Winner take all and a shorter calender that rotates and is picked randomly.

    Parent

    Hillary's speech in Florida (5.00 / 6) (#46)
    by ghost2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:15:05 PM EST
    Jeralyn and Big Tent Democrat:

    PLEASE give props to this video of Hillary in Florida. It's a passionate, amazing speech in favor of counting Florida.  

    (please note, the other two threads on popular vote and Florida are full, so I commented here.)

    Thanks (none / 0) (#203)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:37 PM EST
    for the link.  Anyone know where to see the entire speech?

    Parent
    I'm not sure there is anything Markos or (5.00 / 15) (#47)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:15:07 PM EST
    the vast majority of the DK community could ever write that would have me willing to take them seriously, ever again.

    It takes no great risk to argue for changes to the system when the DK-preferred candidate is now on the verge of gaining the nomination after slashing and burning through the opposition, inflicting huge wounds within the party, and requesting preferential treatment the entire time.

    I suppose the response is that we never would have known how flawed the system was until this election cycle, but that is a bogus argument; there have been so many opportunities before now to advocate for change that this is falling pretty flat with me.

    Are they going to fix the primary the same way (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:38:04 PM EST
    they have fixed the voting machines?  Promises, promises.  I am not holding my breath.

    Parent
    Um, Kos is the enemy. (5.00 / 10) (#48)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:16:10 PM EST
    In fact, it's hard to distinguish him from a Republican operative, at this point. He surely has done more harm to the Democratic party than any Republican.

    the photoshop racebaiting lies (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:17 PM EST
    sent thousands out in horror at those who "will say or do anything to get elected" - that was just one egregious example - he has gone to simply unbelievable lengths to destroy Clinton to get ahead as a gasbag pundit.

    Parent
    How about taking (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    that "pseudo-Muslim" picture from Drudge and claiming that Clinton was responsible.

    Parent
    Kos is a progressive? (5.00 / 13) (#49)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:16:54 PM EST
    My definition of progressive does not include sexist degradation of a female candidate for President and race-baiting slurs towards the Clintons and their supporters. Maybe that's your definition, and that's fine for you.

    Progressives count votes (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by honora on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:17:01 PM EST


    Markos a progressive? (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by chancellor on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:17:23 PM EST
    I don't think so.

    If Being Progressive Means You Can Denigrate, (5.00 / 13) (#54)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    disparage, name call, act like a complete a$$, and in general diss you if you are not an obama follower, then I want NOTHING to do with that progressive movement.  AND THE VILE REMARKS ABOUT HILLARY ARE UNFORGIVABLE. Indeed Kos has become exactly what he despised when he started DKos.

    Kos used to be republican (5.00 / 12) (#56)
    by Mari on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:19:15 PM EST
    Frankly, after his vile behavior during the primary season and the way he treated Clinton supporters, he's not on my side. His site is despicable. He was never a progressive, just another operative looking for power.

    That's an empty word. (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by masslib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:21:54 PM EST
    Anyone can claim to be a "progressive".

    This article (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by ruthinor on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:17 PM EST
    describes why I and many others will NEVER vote for Obama.

    http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-now-not-ever-repudiation-of-obama.html

    Great piece (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:44 PM EST
    I too thought the Dems were beating the Repubs to implosion.

    [I know that most of the professional political corps pooh-poohs this as fire-breathing partisan hype but I have witnessed a level of fury about this that is absolutely unprecedented in all my political experience. This is not hot-blooded, blowhard posturing, this is cold, hard, grim resolve - and I'm seeing it from all quarters - it's very, very real.]

    There is no party and I feel no loyalty no matter how much certain Obama supporters taunt and threaten.  It's amazing in it's simplicity.

    Parent

    Cold, hard, grim resolve (none / 0) (#216)
    by Mari on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:39:46 PM EST
    That describes how I feel. I won't be voting for Obama. I'm looking for an Anti-Obama group in Wisconsin. I will do everything I can to prevent Obama from seizing power. He is an illegitimate candidate if gets the nomination for the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    article (none / 0) (#238)
    by JON15 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:29:02 PM EST
    That sums it up perfectly. The fact is most Hillary supporters feel exactly like that. We could never,ever vote for Obama,because he's a
    terrible candidate on so many levels. I will vote
    for John McCain unless Hillary is the candidate.

    Parent
    Well, if Markos is the embodiment of (5.00 / 9) (#70)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:39 PM EST
    "progressive," and that means he gets to castigate and demean the candidate he does not support in terms that are as ugly or uglier than those he has reserved for Republican opponents, and if it means that he condones and supports the existence of a community that has been as ugly a place as I have ever seen, then I don't think I want any part of his version of the progressive movement.

    Well, too late (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Monda on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:22 PM EST
    Any call for unity from the Greek guy (Markos) or the Greek lady (Arianna) is too little too late, after the monstrous treatment of Hillary Clinton (from she-devil to GOP-lite and everything in between.)  Beware of the Greeks bearing gifts ....

    PS: Nothing against the Greek nationality, my husband is Greek.  I just don't like these two ;-).

    when someone teaches you not to trust them. (5.00 / 5) (#96)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:33:49 PM EST
    believe it! they don't change. there are other ways of supporting causes and other groups more to my liking. i won't be going back.

    Parent
    he is all nice and conciliatory now (5.00 / 7) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:40 PM EST
    because he is in the "stark Reality" phase of the Obamamaniac Behaviour Cycle.


    I was called some pretty vile names (5.00 / 9) (#92)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:31:19 PM EST
    on that website.  I am not ready to feel very conciliatory toward them for quite some time (if ever).  They showed their ugly side and it was breathtaking in the level of hate directed toward those who were not in the tank for Obama.  He never once told his bloggers to lay off or be civil.  Why now?   Hmmmmm......  Feels a little too much like the wife-beater who brings flowers and promises to be nice from now on.  I ain't buyin' it.

    Parent
    "too much like the wife-beater" (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:33:10 PM EST
    its pretty easy to imagine a "Burning Bed" in his future.

    Parent
    Re nice and conciliatory: (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:09:11 PM EST
    The rules are the rules, so unlike the Clinton people, I won't try to change them in the middle of the contest.

    Think so?  

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 12) (#86)
    by boredmpa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:39 PM EST
    I am a systems person and I am familiar with the way organizations, markets, and bureaucracies work.

    I will not come together because I know:

    a) from a management perspective, the organization will not reform without pressure and all that pressure will be gone if we unify.

    b) from a principled perspective, I cannot support an anti-democratic organization.  Dem leadership should have been out front on this issue.

    c) from a minority perspective, I cannot support an organization whose leadership stands by while minority group warfare/polarization is used to derail discussion of policy and character.  Dem leadership should have been out front on this issue.

    d) from a personal risk analysis perspective, if Obama even comes close to winning, the party takeover will have succeeded and populist policy will be decreased significantly.  Obama is about as middle of the road as you can get, and cannot possibly be expected to lead on populist issues.  As a result, he will implement weak reforms that will hamstring strong reforms and limit dem options in the long run.  In other words, he will fail to play the strong hand the dems have been dealt and in doing so he will limit future options significantly and annoy the working class in the process.  

    Because lets face it, once the middle class is covered (reduced costs) and the ultra-poor have their maze to go through for benefits (oh, look, the poor are covered! we care about the poor!), no political capital will exist in reforming to truly serve the poor and provide for the lower-middle classes.

    You're not thinking correctly if you believe that Obama led policies will help the party or the country in the long run.  I'd rather see 4 more years of crap with a chance for actual reform than 4 years of obama, followed by 12+ of repub control as the working class jumps ship.

    and PBS should have forced Obama to accept (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:25:02 PM EST
    policy debate from the getgo. The DNC could surely fund Bill Moyers to host them.

    If a Dem wont go on public tv to debate, how do you believe they will do any other common good Dem goals?

    Voters have a right to evaluate you first buddy.

    Parent

    No I Can't See That At All (5.00 / 9) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:45 PM EST
    A site that makes stuff up to feed hatred is no friend to anything IMO. If Kos is representative of progressives values, then I'll go back to being a liberal. Thank you very much.

    pretty is as pretty does. any group that (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:30:38 PM EST
    wants my support has to support me. if not, too bad. empty words and threats mean nothing to me now.

    I've (5.00 / 7) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:33:30 PM EST
    been saying for a while now that the system needs an overaul.

    As far as supporting Obama if he's the nominee, well, I'm sorry but I can't. After being called a racist for stating factual information about Obama it's all water under the bridge now. Obama has had months and months to change his attitude and his outreach and has failed to do so. Besides all this, I happen to think that he would be a terrible president. For once I am overjoyed at living in a deep red state. My nonvote won't really matter anyway.

    Vote for the Democratic nominee? (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Joelarama on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:33:33 PM EST
    Yes.  But I'll be an Obama-skeptic, probably always.

    Trust anyone at Daily Kos to work for real primary election reform, after the nastiness, lies, accusations of racism, sexism and general hatred toward fellow Democrats that Markos has encouraged?

    HELL NO.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Marco21 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:46:22 PM EST
    Obama will get my vote, but Kos, Arianna, Aravosis and the like will never get a moment of my time or a cent of my money ever again after smearing and sliming two of the best Democrats the party has ever known.

    F-them.

    Parent

    Unfortunately I would add (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Joelarama on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:56 PM EST
    TPM to that list.

    Parent
    And Buzzflash (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:58:38 PM EST
    And I don't listen to Air America anymore and don't think I will start now.

    Parent
    It's like all of my heroes... (none / 0) (#232)
    by Marco21 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:19 PM EST
    stabbed me in the back. is Iggy Pop going to kick me in the groin next?

    Parent
    It's like all of my heroes... (none / 0) (#234)
    by Marco21 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:03:38 PM EST
    stabbed me in the back. Is Iggy Pop going to kick me in the groin next?

    Parent
    47 Responses means NO WE DON'T AGREE (5.00 / 6) (#97)
    by fctchekr on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:34:02 PM EST
    When party leaders come out and DISS their own constituents, say they don't need them to win.... when they refuse to count votes, when they show preferential treatment for one candidate over another, when they arbitrarily change the rules and only punish two states, when they lay the responsibility for a solution to counting votes on the two campaigns, it all spells one thing, the Democratic party has free-fallen, a serious downward plunge that's irrecoverable..

    These are facts, not bitter utterances..come on we learned all this as children...actions count...
    But when we were children, there wasn't much we could do about the bad behavior of our parents, well we're not children anymore....

    Affiliation to a party is not a birthright..it has to be earned. Has the party earned my uniquivocal vote?

    Absolutely not.
     

    Make that one more who doesn't agree (5.00 / 8) (#167)
    by Lisa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    The people said it well, too:

    Enough is enough. No issue and no party is worth fighting for if you do not have respect. Women's rights are human rights, and until the DNC and Senator Obama start standing for these rights, they will not have my vote. While I view Senator Clinton as a hero, and have nothing but tremendous respect for her and for the courage she has shown during this primary, my vote is my own. If Senator Clinton is not the nominee, no amount of urging from Senator Clinton or anyone else can influence me to vote for a candidate and a party that I no longer believe in.

    Another:

    I am one of the women (former Ohio hospital CEO, 60 years old, life long Democrat) who will not support Obama. It is not the length of the campaign or anything Hillary Clinton said about Obama. Hillary did not turn me against Obama. I can't vote for Obama because I can't find any accomplishments in his past that allow me to judge he would be a good president. Obama is an empty suit. He talks and talks and talks . . . We believe in democracy and he blocked the revotes in Michigan and Florida. We can't believe how many rights we have lost under George Bush, now Obama doesn't seem at all interested in the rights of millions of voters. His personal political gain seems more important that democratic principles.

    and another:

    I just turned 70 this week. I grew up in Chicago (Humboldt Park) under the old Daly [sic]machine. I have been and continue to be a supporter of Hillary Clinton because I do believe she is truly the better democratic candidate. Moreover, I feel she has been badly treated by the press. I am angry as a woman, but I am even more angry as a citizen of the USA. A democratic society depends on a free and unbiased press. Had the media and press been doing its job, Rev. Wright's point of view would have come out a lot earlier. Where were all of you reporters from Chicago? So now the democratic party is stuck with a very flawed candidate, and could very likely lose the election. As for me, I have no intention of voting for Obama.

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/6gatvs

    Parent

    good (none / 0) (#205)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:26:26 PM EST
    And may I also add.... (5.00 / 8) (#101)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:17 PM EST
    to your list of favorite names from the Progressive DailyKos site?

    From Donald:  "It was in their site where I was called a racist for the first time in my life, not to mention GOP troll, casrated eunuch, etc."

    ______

    How about a member of "The Dry Pussy Club"? Or the "Old Hag Women's Studies Set"? Or the "White Bi***es and Hos Contingent"?

    Progressives, indeed.

    I suspect we could spend all night here accumulating a list of the wonderful progressive titles that Clinton supporters have been graced with there.

    let's take it to the convention and (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:54 PM EST
    have a fair vote. include all states and delegates. don't whine about how important you are. then let's talke. till then, hexx no!

    This reminds me (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by sas on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:36:42 PM EST
    It was Josef Stalin who said something like....

    it doesn't matter how many votes there are...it only matters who counts the votes....

    you get my drift

    Will the paid Obama bloggers identify themselves? (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:42:39 PM EST


    I'm not paid (none / 0) (#126)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:47:53 PM EST
    But do you know where I can sign up?  I could use the extra cash for all those lattes and kool-aid I've been drinking lately :)

    Parent
    Just ask your parents (none / 0) (#218)
    by abfabdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:43:03 PM EST
    for a bigger allowance!  (That was snarky, I know, but I couldn't help it--was such a perfect set-up.  Sorry!)

    Parent
    Oh man (none / 0) (#227)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:56:04 PM EST
    I'd be offended if I wasn't laughing my ass off. I'll give you that one.

    P.S. I do have a job and I don't have an allowance.  Although I do stil live at home since I have an obscene amount of debt and I live in a really expensive city.  However, since I pay rent, isn't that kinda like giving my parents an allowance?

    Parent

    That really is the thinking of the (none / 0) (#233)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:26 PM EST
    creative class.  

    Parent
    What is? (5.00 / 1) (#237)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:18:55 PM EST
    The fact that I have to live at home to be able to afford food?  Or the fact that I made a joke about paying my parents an allowance?  It was a joke.  I appreciate everything they've helped me with and I would rather pitch in than not.

    Or maybe it's that I can laugh at myself...

    Parent

    A friend called me to say (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by pie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:45:11 PM EST
    that NPR was interviewing Hillary supporters who insisted that they will not vote for Obama if he's the candidate.  I'm sure the McCain campaign and the media are just delighted with the negative attention the dems are getting.

    And once again, it appears the dems will pull a sure defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Thanks, DNC and party elites.  You suck.

    Is this being an American? (5.00 / 8) (#136)
    by miriam on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:52:09 PM EST
    "...we must all come together and wholeheartedly support and work hard for the Democratic nominee for President..."

    There is an assumption implicit in this quote that demands of anyone in doubt: "party before country."  Well, I've limped down that path before.  I've voted against my better judgment so many times that my cerebral cortex has shriveled to miniscule proportions.  I don't believe I can afford to lose any more gray cells.  

    However...in the past I could say to myself: Now listen Self, Michael Dukakis (or Mondale or Kerry or McGovern) is not the best nominee, but he is surely better than Republican candidate __ (fill in the blank).  But this time I'm not at convinced about that act-of-faith, because Barack Obama has assumed a chameleon mask second to none.  Given his scanty and often non-existent record (Illinois legislature "missing" records, voting "Present" or not voting at all) I have no idea what this man really believes or what he would do to get these beliefs fulfilled.  I don't know if he is as confused about his identity as he appears to be. He's decided he wants to be African-American, when based on genetic fact he is Arab-American.  

    I do know that for 20 years he sat and listened to a racist, Black Supremacy doctrinaire preacher.  I do know he associated with, and took money from, radical anti-American William Ayres, slumlord Tony Rezko, and the Iraqi Auchi. I also know that he has waged a campaign that involved calling former prez Bill Clinton a racist while blatantly ignoring, and benefitting from, the mysogynism and lies directed at NY senator Hillary Clinton.  To me, he is a coward for not further debating her and for refusing a revote in Florida and Michigan.

    Finally, I deeply believe he will either lose hugely in November, or will prove a disastrous chief executive who will set the party and the country back decades economically.  His naivete and utter lack of experience may well severely endanger this country's security at a particularly delicate and dangerous time.

    Given what I don't know and what I do know about this man, it involves too much risk to my country to demand that I vote for him.  I can't do it.                

    Not this little black duck. (5.00 / 8) (#140)
    by befuddled on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:10 PM EST
    Your democratic party has already been corrupted, yet some of you are having a hard time grasping it. The last clue is on this page: if Obama can buy his way onto the DNC (and we know he has deep pockets), he will change the composition from what seems to be about 30% pro-Obama to a much higher proportion, one which will give the same control as Bush leveraged, effectively shutting out all other voices. And what evidence is there that he will come out for traditional dem values? Like Reagan's--  Anyone concerned about liberal values like counting votes or respecting constituencies should only be thinking about getting behind Obama to give him a good push off stage.

    take a gander at his energy advisors for evidence! (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:31:24 PM EST
    at the Bipartisan (!!!!????@###@???) Policy Center and click over to energy policy, and see CEO of Exelon Rowe.

    Lobbyists advising him on climate policy.....?????

    Parent

    I don't want to sound like a broken record (5.00 / 10) (#142)
    by MMW on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:52 PM EST
    but, I ain't ready to play nice. To turn now and support Obama after all he has done, not done and the vitriol of his supporters and party establishment means I am justifying their actions.

    In my opinion, speaking for me only, He is unqualified to be President. I thought Republicans the biggest idjits on the face of this Earth for voting blindly along party lines for Bush.

    I will not do it. I do not fear a McCain presidency. Contrary, in fact I think maybe just maybe the Dems will start doing their jobs.

    If they don't so be it. Perhaps the population will wake up.

    But I will not reward what has been done this past year.

    The only way to be heard is to not vote for their actions.

    BTW - how do you hold him to anything, when he has promised nothing and you have given in?

    Don't Agree (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Danielle on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:54:38 PM EST
    I think as an individual.  Therefore, I am commited to no party--DNC or RNC.  I feel it is either Hillary Clinton or John Mccain. Never will I vote for Obama.

    What is so great about McCain? (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    Tell me why is he so great? Clinton and McCain are opposite. Give me 5 pro McCain points any Dem would like without bashing Obama.

    Parent
    See, this is exactly the problem with (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by dk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:10:20 PM EST
    Obama supporters.  You need the votes of people like those on this site for your candidate to win against McCain.  And my bet is that many of the frequent commenters/readers of this site have been voting staunchly Democratic longer than this Obama supporter has been alive.

    It is not for the people here to explain to you why they are considering voting for McCain instead of Obama.  It is for you to explain to them why they should vote for Obama over McCain.  And you need to do it by actually listing some of Obama's policy proposals, not by trashing McCain.  Can you do that?  Why don't you list 5 actual policy positions of Obama's that you think are better than McCain's.  


    Parent

    Why Obama (5.00 / 2) (#215)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:31 PM EST
    1)Abortion - I'm pro choice but not fond of abortion. Obama wants to talk about real solutions between the groups without turning into a food fight. Is pro choice. McCain - overturn Roe v Wade no exceptions.

    2)Foreign policy - talk to your enemies peroid. We need to talk to Cuba, Iran, Syria and Venezuela. McCain - fight them to the death. War with Iran.

    3)Economy - bottom up. Middle class and poor need help. Tax breaks for middle class and corporations to keep jobs at home. McCain - continue Bush tax cuts for the rich. Trickle down pt 2. Let the free mkt run itself.

    4)Healthcare - We all know the points. McCain - demonize and Dem plan as socialism. Screw the poor. Voted against children and poor healthcare bills. Wants the free mkt to handle it.

    5)Civil rights - easy. He will get this right. McCain - against forcing equal pay for women. Didn't think the civil rights movement of the 60's was that important. Let the free mkt handle it.

    6)Education - Obama wants to change NCLB. Wants $4k/yr tax credit for college. Teacher pay raise. McCain - not worth the effort.

    You can have McCain. I'll take both Obama and Clinton. Voting agaist Obama has nothing to do with policy positions. Your turn for pro McCain.

    Parent

    OOOH (none / 0) (#222)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:02 PM EST
    You reminded me, I have more!

    • Obama supports expanding tuition benefits for veterans.  McCain does not.

    • Obama has voted for increased funding for veterans 90% of the time, McCain 30% of the time.


    Parent
    After reading the good Obama points (none / 0) (#226)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:53:50 PM EST
    some how McCain is more appealing. He is a war hero. That must trump everyting. He might bring down hell on the little people, but is is a great guy.

    Parent
    Done (none / 0) (#193)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:12 PM EST
    And to be honest, I just copied and pasted most of this from an earlier post of mine.

    • He was one of the co-sponsers (and the only presidential co-sponser) of the Fair Pay Act, which McCain came out publicly against.

    • He has a very consistent and strong view on closing Guantanamo Bay and making sure Habeus Corpus remains intact.  His advocacy on behalf of this issue earned him the support of the Lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees.

    • Judges - People give him crap for the fact that he may have once wanted to vote for Roberts.  Well, fact is, he didn't vote for Roberts.  Not only that, he voted to filibuster Scalia.

    • Iraq.  I am with BTD on this one, I don't care why he spoke out, if it was politically motivated or not.  Fact is, he spoke out, and he was right.  Also, his "policy position" here is to remove the troops.

    • He is, in fact, a Democrat and he has voted with democrats consistently over 95% of the time.


    Parent
    Scalia? (none / 0) (#207)
    by Valhalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:28:19 PM EST
    Surely you meant someone else.  Scalia was sworn onto SCOTUS in 1986.  Obama wasn't even an IL legislator then, and even when he was, IL doesn't get to filibuster on SCt nominees.

    Parent
    I think the poster (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:32:44 PM EST
    means Alito.

    But what the poster also doesn't mention is that even though he did vote against Roberts, it was against his better judgment after being convinced re: political issues not to vote for the judge. He also vocalized his support of the judge and the decision of those colleagues who voted for Roberts.

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#211)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:29:36 PM EST
    Your right, Alito, i messed that up the first time and forgot to fix it.

    Parent
    No caucuses (5.00 / 4) (#158)
    by cal1942 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:59:28 PM EST
    again, ever.  Closed primaries only. No more independents and/or crossovers help decide the nominee. Let Democrats pick the Democratic nominee and Republicans pick the Republican nominee. And no 'day of' registrations.

    The only penalty allowed for a state is failure to hold a closed primary and the penalty should be fixed to prevent tampering by the DNC.

    Dispose of the primary schedule. Set only a beginning date and allow the states to determine their own primary date.

    Award delegates based on population not Congressional districts. Base a state's delegate allotment on population.

    One of the disgusting features of the current system is the disproportionate allocation of delegates.

    Wyoming got 18 delegates or 1 delegate for every 29,046 people.

    California got 441 delegates or 1 delegate for every 82,887 people.

    I was always for superdelegates, a safety measure against demagoguery, but it's plain that SDs can be bought as we're seeing clearly in this campaign.

    So how ridiculous is the current system?  It's this ridiculous:

    Hillary Clinton has won states with a combined population of 185,369,115 people.  Obama has won states with a combined population of 114,497,967
    people. Or 61.8% to 31.1%.

    The percentage is even more lopsided if caucus states are eliminated from both columns. Clinton 68.3%, Obama 31.7%.

    Forty-two percent of Obama's wins have been in caucus states.  Ten percent of Hillary Clinton's wins have been in caucus states.

    If delegates were awarded winner take all this campaign would have been over long ago. If delegates were allocated according to population and the vote divied up accordingly, this campaign would have been over long ago.


    Awesome (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:13 PM EST
    Way to alienate every Hillary supporter who is open to voting for Obama.  You guys are amazing with the unity talk, truly amazing.

    Watching TV late this afternoon (5.00 / 5) (#172)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:05:25 PM EST
    every single Obama supporter has-- such a coincidence!-- made the same speech about the need to overhaul the nomination process.

    Kos is flat-out simply following orders from the Obama campaign to change the subject, no more, no less.

    This clever tactic is intended to distract and thereby mollify Clinton supporters by changing the subject from the issues to the process.


    Never (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:06:07 PM EST
    I will never vote for him, for reasons too numerous and too well-known to others here to enumerate. And I won't be held hostage or made to capitulate under the banner of Roe, the war, SCOTUS, or anything else. Even with HRC on the ticket. There is literally nothing they can do to get my vote.

    I'll let Mark Chestnutt (an appropriately redneck choice, no?) say it for me:

    I should've done this and I should've done that
    I should've been there then she'd have never left I should've been hangin' on to every word she ever had to say
    But it's a little too late, she's a little too gone
    She's a little too right, I'm a little too wrong  Now would be a good time to change
    But it's a little too late.


    Howzit Donald (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:07:34 PM EST
    You da bomb! Mahalo nui loa.

    KOS (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by cal1942 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    is as neoliberal as Obama and that ain't progressive.  Kos' tactics during this campaign, his take, are what we'd expect to see from FOX News. Except that during this campaign even Fox has been more upright than KOS. KOS lacks integrity, he's no longer a credible source.

    I wasn't happy with Kos before the campaign, he seemed to me to be arrogant, a self-styled kingmaker over estimating his own importance.

    Agreed! (2.60 / 5) (#21)
    by Rictor Rockets on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:37 PM EST
    Yes. Certainly. I could not agree more, 150%

    Now is not the time for petty and bitter recriminations. There's been enough bad behavior on both sides, and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of seeing people act about 30 years or so below their actual age. By August, we need to be making at least some progress in coming back together, or we really WILL lose to McCain and the Neos.

    Also yes, the system is screwed up. It's very sad that it took this disaster to wake people up to it. It's been in place for over 25 years in it's present form, and has been bad...it's just that we never actually had a REAL primary since 1982, that was anything other than a coronation.

    Had Hillary won it, rest assured I would have sucked it up, and followed that woman into the foxholes against McCain, despite my personal distaste for her. There are bigger issues facing us right now than "making those damn (insert candidates name here) supporters pay. Pay in blood! We'll fix their little red wagons!

    How about apathy and disenchantment? (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:17:03 PM EST
    I had a brief abusive relationship.   I made a friend later who volunteered to pay a visit to my ex and teach him a lesson.  I told him not to bother.  People like that are convinced that they do no wrong, so they see no reason to change.

    So no, I'm not planning any petty recriminations because the effort would be wasted.  If they throw a party and send me an invite, I'll RSVP "No thanks.".  I don't want to associate with them.  The world is full of people.  Six billion of them - I'm sure I can find someone to hang with.

    Parent

    And (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by hookfan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM EST
    since when are one's heartfelt values and principles petty? More arrogance. More hubris. Yeah that's the ticket to more unity. Just trash what one holds dear and threaten to run them out of the party. Then, when you wake up, realizing you need them, just tell them to get over it. Then bluster about your superiority. Yeah that'll fly. Really. . .

    Parent
    and i am tired of having hillary (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:34:33 PM EST
    supporters kicked around.

    Parent
    I can relate to your disgust and anger . (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Mari on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    I've been a loyal Democratic voter for 20 years, but I can't see any more reason to be loyal to them. As soon as the Democratic Party had a majority in Congress in 2006, Pelosi refused to even consider impeachment. Since 2006, the Democrats have not stood up for its core constituents.

    And now they try to fix the primaries for Obama with disenfranchisement of over 2 million voters and silently supporting the hatred and misogny against Clinton. I don't see much difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party.

    Also, you would be more persuasive if you would refrain from insulting with people you disagree with.

    Parent

    By August? (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by The Realist on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:30 PM EST
    The time for this reconciliation would have been better served had it occurred back in, oh, i don't know, say, January!

    DK, HuffPo, Americablog,and TPM took the low road and now find themselves in the muck they so opposed for years. Trolling on other blog sites trying to persuade everyone to come together for the sake of the party is laughable.

    I am open to reconciliation on the condition that Obama,Markos,Arianna,Arivosis, and Josh go on all newtwork and cable channels and apologize and admit to the filth that they have been promoting these many months. Then we will see.

    Deal?

    Parent

    I hear you. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Marco21 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:29:19 PM EST
    Although I've gone from being amazed by Obama in 2004 and proudly voting for him as my Senator to actually disliking him and finding him a poor second choice, I will be voting for him come November.

    We can survive a weak Democrat in office. We cannot survive a third Bush term with McCain.

    Parent

    Another take on McCain (none / 0) (#123)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:46:10 PM EST
    "Sidney Blumenthal, a former senior adviser to President Bill Clinton and strategist for Hillary Clinton's Democratic presidential campaign, went "off message" (his words) today with a warning to his party: Don't run against GOP nominee John McCain by painting him as Bush III, because he's not. Bucking the Democratic National Committee's talking points that characterize a potential McCain administration as tantamount to a third Bush term, Blumenthal told our Liz Halloran that running on that strategy in the fall would be a mistake. "I understand people's political reasons for doing that," he said. "I think it's more helpful to describe [political opponents] as they are." Bottom line, Blumenthal calls the strategy "a mistake and adds: "The public doesn't see [McCain] that way. That's a hard sell." At an event to promote his new book, The Strange Death of Republican America: Chronicles of a Collapsing Party, Blumenthal also predicted that McCain has "lots of room to maneuver" politically before the fall election. What hurts the presumed Republican nominee? His need, Blumenthal says, to reassure conservative Republicans about the kind of nominees he'd make to the Supreme Court."

    LINK

    It's perfectly possible (none / 0) (#127)
    by Nadai on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:11 PM EST
    to have more than one enemy.

    At Daily Kos, Clinton (none / 0) (#131)
    by CA JAY on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:49:55 PM EST
    never got more than 15% in the preference polls IIRC. DK readers showed strong support for Feingold and when he announced he was not running. Edwards ran at a 50% support level with obama in a strong second. For whatever reason, Clinton was never popular with the readership there.

    It seems the feelings became nasty after Edwards dropped out of the race. Obama was my 3rd choice and I'd support Clinton in a heartbeat (she would have been my 4th choice) but any of the Dems would be far better than McCain.

    Clinton supporters have a right to be upset but no matter how little repsect one feels towards Obama and his supporters, compare his voting record and platform to McCain's.

    Cognitive Dissonance (none / 0) (#206)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:26:40 PM EST
    Ask the Dailykos community "How many of you think Clinton voted for CAFTA."?

    Then ask them "How many of your think Clinton voted for a flag burning Amendment?"

    They're morons.


    Parent

    Give it to Clinton (none / 0) (#133)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:50:34 PM EST
    The rules suck peroid. Clinton should not have had Penn on staff. She had a bad staff. Blame the staff. Throw out Dean. I'm used to playing with unfair rules stacked against me. My father told me don't worry too much about the rules just make sure they are not changed during the game. Change the rules later, not now. Some how McCain being better than either one is crazy.

    I'm not sure what progressive means anymore. (none / 0) (#135)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:51:40 PM EST
    He is antiwar on Iraq, but that position sometimes obscures other views.  The Dean movement united moderates on economic issues with antiwar folks.  

    For example, he is pro-"free trade."  (But so is BTD)  He is not a progressive populist as we used that word among John Edwards supporters.

    i don't think "class warfare" such as the Two Ameircas ever felt that comnfortable to him, but i may be wrong.  If the Edwards camapign represented the actual labor/left in the Democratic Party (excluding Kucinich), markso never supported it.  

    I think Markos is slightly left of center, like Obama and Clinton are, but I suppose that is a minority view here about Obama and Clinton.

    I have perceived myself to the left of Markos sicne I first read his posts in September 2006. I do not consider him ot be on the left wing of the Democratic Party.  He's not DLC, but on issues not that left.  On process, he is a bit.

    I thought he was too extreme in his rhetoric in opposition to Senator Clinton.  I don't like the taunting in some of his posts, but that drives traffic.  (But I don't read all that many, so maybe I miss a lot).

    Just my take.

    why? (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by dotcommodity on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:24 PM EST
    " I suppose that is a minority view here about Obama and Clinton."

    I think Clinton is very progressive on domestic policy (going back to Arkensaw), and kind of a WWII Dem on foreign, and Obama is a wannabe YOYO, who ran as a Democrat, but could just as easily run as a Republican if there were opening then in that at that time, sort of a Blue Dog Dem.  

    Parent

    I just worried. (none / 0) (#186)
    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:12:56 PM EST
    Some folks on MyDD did not like it when I made statements like that.  Some thought Clinton was more progressive; others though Obama was too left wing and Clinton more centrist, which they thought was good.  

    Coalitions include all sorts of folks who support a candidate for various reasons.

    Glad we're okay.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#155)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:58:32 PM EST
    The posters here do not represent jeralyn or btd who have repeatedly said they will support them Dem candidate in the fall.

    Only after kicking sand in his face (none / 0) (#169)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:03:28 PM EST
    Talk Left (none / 0) (#184)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    Look, you can be critical of someone in a primary vs. the other primary candidate without supporting the GOP.  There are plenty of pro-Obama blogs that rip Hillary to shreds.  I seriously doubt they would continue to do so after the primary was over (if they consider themselves Dems).  I don't think they have "kicked sand in his face", but they have supported the opposing view.

    However, never ONCE have they used GOP talking points in the main posts, and if anything, the main posters are critical of him for being too far to the right.  The people who comment here are obviously another story.  I don't understand how you can complain about Obama being not progressive enough and follow that up with backing McCain.  That's completely beyond me.

    Parent

    Right wing talking point, eh? (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by dk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:17:18 PM EST
    You mean, like Obama's Harry & Louise redux ads aginst Hillary?  You mean like saying, when asked to identify a gay person you admire, saying that you liked a college professor of yours because (apparently, unlike other gays) he didn't "proselytize."

    Hopefully the sarcasm is coming through, but my point is that I think that anyone who supports Obama should be careful when they accuse others of adopting right wing talking points.

    Parent

    Are you serious? (none / 0) (#195)
    by masslib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:19 PM EST
    "You mean like saying, when asked to identify a gay person you admire, saying that you liked a college professor of yours because (apparently, unlike other gays) he didn't "proselytize."

    That happened?

    Parent

    Woah (none / 0) (#200)
    by CST on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:03 PM EST
    I was defending talk left here, saying that they DIDN'T use those talking points.

    And yes, some Hillary supporters have, and yes, Hillary sometimes has, and yes Obama and Obama supporters sometimes have used GOP talking points.

    Parent

    WOW!! (none / 0) (#177)
    by The Realist on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:07:23 PM EST
    All this from DK on the same day i recieved a survey from the DNC asking for my opinions(excluding LGBT issues)on what i would like the Dem nominee and DNC to address. At the end was a contribution form with the 35.00 amount circled in red.

    I would have had more respect for them had they just asked for my money. That's all they wanted anyway.

    FU (none / 0) (#188)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:14:49 PM EST
    Here in NC I grew up where "patriotic americans" blew up our mailbox, burned garbage in our yard (they were too lazy build a cross), call a n*$ger more time than you. Most of my family served in the military (Korean war - Iraq II) and get reminded how we are not welcome in parts of this country. Love of one's country does not mean turning a blind eye to any injustices commited. It is more patriotic loving this country despite being attacked by it. Loving it enough to fight to change it. You have many advantages you take for granted. Partiotism isn't earned by one gesture or act, it is a daily thing. McCain stepping on women, the poor and minorities IS NOT PATRIOTIC.

    Oh (none / 0) (#201)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:53 PM EST
    Women matter now.

    Ok.

    FU too.


    Parent

    Sexism and racism go hand & hand (none / 0) (#221)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:45:59 PM EST
    There are more women in my family and I know when I see either. I don't make sexist jokes bucause I know how it feels to be looked down on. But this is about patriotism. Black are always questioned on the subject. People assume we want revenge. So back at you.

    Parent
    Go write a diary (none / 0) (#225)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:51:02 PM EST
    On an Obamablog about sexism.

    Parent
    Wrong target (none / 0) (#229)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:29 PM EST
    I love the Redskins but HATE the owner and some of the fans. Like the team not the fans.

    Parent
    Then who cares?? (none / 0) (#235)
    by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:03:38 PM EST
    don't lecture me about racism telling me how much you care about sexism too when you lack the energy and werewithal to lecture anyone else about sexism.

    I won't listen.  I will just think you only care about one (racism) enough to lecture people about it and the other (sexism).  Just not so much.

    I will tune you out.

    Done.

    Parent

    Sorry... (none / 0) (#208)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:28:22 PM EST
    I don't buy it.

    Even if they do decide to revamp the primary season, they'll stall it for a long time to make it harder to do a real rehaul in time for 2012, the DNC won't be taking advice from bloggers with regards to the rehaul, and whatever grassroots advice they do get will be revised to be more palatable to the higher ups.

    In effect, not much will get done...but there will be a lot of discussion vis a vis "hey lookit...we're revamping our system."

    This thread is an endless loop stemming (none / 0) (#209)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:28:27 PM EST
    from many previous endless loops.  

    Yes, for the reasons I have prevously stated, I will vote for Obama if he is the nominee

    Sorry Big Tent, we DON'T agree (none / 0) (#223)
    by zridling on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:34 PM EST
    I'll be voting for McCain in Missouri, even though I've never voted for a single repub all my life — 46 years! But Hillary won the most votes and just like Gore, the one with the most votes in a democracy should win. If a party or entity conspires to prevent votes from counting, then he is un-American, and there's absolutely no way I'd support an undemocratic Democrat, period.

    Okay (none / 0) (#231)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:18 PM EST
    If you don't realize that this sort of lecture is completely unproductive in terms of getting Obama elected, there's nothing I can do to help you.

    Lots of liberals would rather be right than win elections.  I guess you're one of them.  Keep telling all the Clinton supporters how awful their candidate is, if that's what turns you on.

    well said (none / 0) (#236)
    by neglected blackman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:39 PM EST
    let's try to tone it down a bit. I need to tell myself the samething. We all want the samething. Down with Bush and all associated with him.

    Parent
    Ehh, more crap from Greeks IMO (none / 0) (#239)
    by TheViking on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:32:41 PM EST

    Soros, Markos, Huffington -- Greeks don't speak for me!

    Hillary has earned (none / 0) (#241)
    by Manuel on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:41:20 PM EST
    every little bit of the grudging respect she is getting.  She isn't damaging anything.  She has earned the right to take her candidacy to the convention as Kennedy and Hart did once upon a time with far less delegates.

    I'm done with kos (none / 0) (#245)
    by pluege on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:21 PM EST
    I'll certainly vote for Obama if I have to because he's not mccain and because he's not nearly as bad as his moronic supporters. But I will surely never unite with dailykos again - they showed their true colors and they're as ugly and inane as a wingnut.


    I respect your decision (none / 0) (#246)
    by Raven15 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:28 PM EST
    ...to support either Democratic nominee.

    My conscience will not let me vote for Obama. I expect all reading this to respect my decision as well. Is that so hard?

    My DH said (none / 0) (#247)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:23:42 PM EST
    Hey, KOS is being just like Bush.  He'll unify if we do everything HIS way!

    F*** that.