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Saturday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:29:27 PM EST
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My mind and emotions are still wrapped up in this morning's elegant, moving, sad and hopeful funeral for Sen. Ted Kennedy. I think it will be hours before I move on.

For those of you with other things on your mind, here's an open thread. All topics welcome. Please remember, however, this site does not allow comments that speak ill of the recently departed.

[Note: I had just posted the Teddy Kennedy, Jr. tribute to his father in a new thread before seeing that BTD added them here. I think we only need them up once. Direct links are here and here. I hope you will all view them. ]

< Edward M. Kennedy, 1932-2009 | Teddy Kennedy, Jr.'s Eulogy to Sen. Ted Kennedy >

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    Saturday Afternoon Open Thread | 52 comments (52 topical)

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    It was a great mass and eulogy (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Saul on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:34:20 PM EST
    I think Ted Kennedy Jr. gave the best speech in honor of his father.

    I think he would be a great replacement for his dad as senator.

    Indeed he did (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:37:23 PM EST
    He apparently lives in CT, though.

    Parent
    Too Bad (none / 0) (#11)
    by Saul on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:00:44 PM EST


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    It was a beautiful ceremony. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ChiTownDenny on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:35:54 PM EST
    I did things around the house while it was on TV.  I was especially moved by the grandkids, Ted, Jr., and Obama.  
    Also, I was pleased that I could see no television cameras yet they were obviously there.

    I'm taking glass of wine (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:38:45 PM EST
    If they You Tube Teddy Jr's eulogy, I'll post that. Otherwise, I'm emotionally spent.

    My biggest Fear Re Senator Ted Kennedy (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by samsguy18 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:39:51 PM EST
    Today we are saying goodbye to one of our biggest champions of the underprivledged and there will not be a replacement with his unselfish heart and perseverance. It makes me cry.

    Unselfish hearts and (none / 0) (#10)
    by oldpro on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:53:50 PM EST
    perseverance...made me think of Bill and what he has done with his life after his presidency, both domestically and internationally.

    Parent
    Bill Moyers on U.,S. nation building in (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:51:02 PM EST
    Afghanistan:

    If you're an Afghani and look up and see Arnold Schwarzenegger and the California legislature coming to build your nation, you're going to run - you're going to put up a No Trespassing sign. We need to come home.
    Greenwald (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:23:18 PM EST
    has a good interview that Bill Maher (vomiting in my mouth but occasionally he has good stuff) had with Moyers.  Don't have it open right now to link to, but we all know where Greenwald is at Salon.com.

    Parent
    Digby also discusses the Maher/Moyers (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:27:21 PM EST
    interview.  The latter pegged Rahm Emmanuel as the roadblock re progressive health care reform.

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    In other words (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:48:08 PM EST
    Obama is the roadblock to healthcare reform, since Rahm works at the pleasure of the president.

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    Crooks and Liars (none / 0) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:57:14 PM EST
    has the video of Maher/Moyers interview on health care reform. Good stuff.

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    As I noted earlier, (none / 0) (#20)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:14:42 PM EST
    Moyers spoke for me last night w/r/t Obama and Afghanistan.  

    And Moyers speaks from experience about quagmires, having for 3 years helped LBJ sell his VN War to the public and the corp media of the day.

    Very mixed feelings about the guy on war issues, obviously ...

    Parent

    My instincts say that Afghanistan was a mistake (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by cawaltz on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 09:32:41 PM EST
    we can't go back and unring the squandered opportunity that Bush was presented. Afghanistan was never going to be easy to begin with when you look at the history of the place and time just does not exist in a vacumn.

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    Anti-healthcare (none / 0) (#6)
    by waldenpond on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:40:32 PM EST
    commercials.... I'm still stuck on Kennedy and what an advocate he was.  I will always remember him for his fight for healthcare for all.

    ABC and NBC are refusing to cover a commercial (as it currently is) that shows a neurosurgeon stating that healthcare reform will lead to rationing.  I am frustrated by a media who 'debates' the lies and angered by a commercial that can't be challenged.

    Patrick Kennedy, Jr., Sen. Kennedy's son, (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:45:39 PM EST
    commended his father for his work to make mental health care more readily accessible, including to Patrick Kennedy, Jr.  

    yes, he handled that in a very classy way (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:50:44 PM EST


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    Indeed. n/t (none / 0) (#9)
    by oldpro on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 12:51:13 PM EST


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    Today's LAT has an article about (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:10:23 PM EST
    people buying up bullets after Obama was elected and the fact gun shops can't keep bullets in stock.

    And also this tragic story:  Local Olympian killed by prowlers

    just their fear (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:13:06 PM EST
    that Obama would enact new gun control legislation. And the gun control movement is upset he hasn't acted to do so. It's not that people en masse are buying bullets to commit crimes.

    Parent
    So true. Can't wrap my mind around the (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:19:21 PM EST
    image of a potential burglar purchasing ammo from a gun shop.  Or the gun, for that matter.

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    it's more than that (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    there is more than fear of increased gun control at work.  there is clear reactionary hatred and proudly displayed ignorance at work.  there is a retardation of critical thinking at work, since i doubt you could find a single interview with a bullet-hording person that would sound anything less than unreasonably paranoid and largely irrational in terms of factual reality.  they PERCEIVE a threat, and not just to their beloved penis substitutes.  they are threatened that the cultural hegemony they have enjoyed is disappearing, which it is.  

    and if you think a good number of those bullets aren't going to be fired in anger by a number of these irrationals, well, i hope you're right.  but logic tells me differently.

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    Now I miss my dog again. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:40:54 PM EST
    I wouldn't want my dog to be gunned down by trespassers.  

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    Has (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:37:33 PM EST
    anybody thought that some of that might have to do with economy?

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    Living with a "gun enthusiast" (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by cawaltz on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 09:36:09 PM EST
    I can say anecdotally it is a concern that new gun control legislation will be enacted.

    I already have an unhappy camper because I guess there were some changes to classify assisted open knives as switchblades and many companies are restricting them to military/law enforcement only.

    Parent

    You mean (none / 0) (#44)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:03:56 PM EST
    needing something to cling to?

    Parent
    Managed a couple minutes (none / 0) (#15)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:33:02 PM EST
    of live streaming, but otherwise had kids to put to bed and farmer's market to go to.  Sounds like it was wonderful.

    Went to the market, said hello to some of the vendors, asked the teenage boy how he did at the fair (his family did both state and county fairs).  Asked the poultry people about their chickens.  I think the fast maturing "modern" hybrids lack flavor.  They agreed.  They are raising a batch of heritage chickens - but they'll cost 30% more.  It'd be worth it if I could eat chicken that tastes like something!  Conventional white meat chicken has as much flavor as tofu.  Tofu is cheaper and easier to cook.

    Got some late season corn.  If you like post mature corn, now is the time to get it!  Tomatoes everywhere and the one stand I like had peppers - all kinds, every kind.  Only one pimiento pepper, maybe more next week?  I asked for a ristra of dried habaneros - they are equally good fresh or dried.

    That reminds me... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by shoephone on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:41:27 PM EST
    There is an exceptional piece in the Spring 2009 edition of the Bellingham Review called, "Chicken Trilogy" that you might enjoy. When I first read it, I did not realize it was creative non-fiction because it had that slight "otherness" air of short fiction about it. It's the story of a mom and her young sons deciding they want to start a chicken coop, and how everything goes (somewhat hilariously) out of control. The author is Mardi Link.

    Parent
    We just got back (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:20:22 PM EST
    from our local farmer's market, but I think ours is your fancy elite west coast type of hippie liberal vegetarian type market.

    And people's tastes can change over time, especially when you're consistently putting good healthy food in your body, and the stuff that's easy on the digestive system.  

    Tofu for us over chicken for instance.  Different taste buds today compared to 15 yrs ago.  

    Parent

    Chicken twenty years ago. (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:55:21 PM EST
    Compared to chicken today.

    The whole point of factory farming livestock is to get the animals to market weight as fast as possible.

    It's simple math really - the less time you have to feed and care for them, the less money you put into them.  The more efficiently they convert feed to weight gain, the lower your costs are.  This means that CAFO operations are looking for young animals that put on weight rapidly.  The feed is designed to do the same thing.

    The end result is not going to be the same as animals that mature more slowly and eat a more modest diet.  If you want flavor, you raise animals in ways that make them more flavorful.  
    Cheap, Fast, Quality - you can get two of three at best.  

    Parent

    good god - hybrid chickens? (none / 0) (#29)
    by kempis on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 03:32:46 PM EST
    I wondered what factory-farmers were doing to poor chickens these days. All I knew was that the breasts and drumsticks and thighs I see wrapped in the supermarket look like they come from Sumo wrestler chickens, not the hens my sainted grandmother raised (and who had a nice henhouse and good-sized fenced yard, with two beagles to guard them). So the stuff that's going to regular markets now comes from mad-scientist-chickens....Man, this tinkering with nature worries me--unintended consequences.

    I've pretty much stopped eating chicken and beef, mainly from instinct telling me that it's not from normal animals. Kinda scary to see my hunch confirmed.

    Parent

    Geesh! (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 03:49:54 PM EST
    YOU are a hybrid!  We are all hybrids!  What's unnatural is keeping breeds "pure."  "Hybrid" chicken simply means a Rhode Island Red hen fraternizing with a Cochin cock.

    Every domestic animal there is is a result of humans selectively breeding them to for desirable characteristics.  There's nothing "mad scientist" about that, it's been done almost since the beginning of time.

    Parent

    Not just any old hybrid (none / 0) (#32)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:06:19 PM EST
    Hybrids designed to gain weight so rapidly that if they weren't harvested, they might shortly become physically handicapped because their skeleton and joints can't cope with the fast growth.

    The heritage breeds were selected for different traits - hardiness, cold tolerance, temperament, heat tolerance, egg production.

    Parent

    Actually, it was well publicized (none / 0) (#34)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:26:12 PM EST
    a couple of decades ago that the excessive hormones being pumped into chickens was causing children to develope faster and more abundantly, as well. I believe they put a stop to some of the additives that were having such obvious effects on humans.

    Parent
    There was a big chicken problem during (none / 0) (#37)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:51:04 PM EST
    the pet food recall after they discovered that Tyson (iirc) had been feeding melamine tainted feed. The FDA/USDA came out with a hastily put together "safety assessment" so the birds could be slaughtered as they were hitting their tipping point.

    Parent
    Geesh! You're right, of course (none / 0) (#40)
    by kempis on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 05:45:41 PM EST
    I was responding to the idea that they are being bred to be meat, not animals, as described by Fabian. But I didn't phrase that well.

    Sorry to sound so offensively ignorant.

    Parent

    Sorry, too (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 10:12:08 PM EST
    Didn't mean to smack you.  And of course, the posters above are right that there's nothing benign about the way chickens are being bred for commercial production.

    But it's definitely good to know what precisely we're talking about, rather than turning into no-nothing luddites scorning all forms of "meddling" with nature.  There's nothing natural about chickens to begin with, or dogs or cats or pigs, cows, you name it.

    What bugs me is inhumane treatment, not so much selective breeding.  OK, I'm also bugged by selective breeding for characteristics, like giant, malformed chicken breasts that are also totally tasteless!

    I'm about to get some chickens myself, but since I'm a complete moral coward, I won't be butchering them to eat, I'll continue to get my chicken parts wrapped in plastic from the market.  Sigh.

    Parent

    S'okay. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 06:13:06 PM EST
    It's a well known phenomena in large ("giant") breed dogs that excessively fast growth can cause lifelong joint and skeletal problems.  

    Parent
    Local meat producers (none / 0) (#33)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:16:49 PM EST
    have a hard time getting their product to consumers.  Retailers generally won't have anything to do with them - especially since it usually costs about double the price of CAFO produced meat.  The few retailers who do carry locally produced meat will only carry a few producers.  Some restaurants buy locally, but that market isn't very big.

    So they are trying to retail directly to the consumer.  That's not easy.  The good/bad news is that microfarms are springing up everywhere - better for the consumer, but more difficult for producers who are in an increasingly crowded market.

    I grew up spoiled on what now is marketed as "grass fed beef" and what could be called "free range hogs" - they got slops year round and weeds in the summer and the garden after the frost.  We tried briefly to keep chickens, but they got et by varmints.  

    Parent

    I get my chickens through our CSA (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 04:45:33 PM EST
    Our chicken farmer sells to a couple of CSAs and through a cook shop here. I think they also do direct to restaurants. We pre-order and there's 5 deliveries between early summer and late fall. There is a huge difference in the meat of these chickens and anything you can get in a store. I used to not like the white meat, but this white meat I don't even like to share with the cats {grin}

    I don't buy any of my meats at the store. I buy very, very little at the store in general :) Grains and beans I try and buy bulk so I can source them and not worry. My CSA supplies the bulk of my produce, fruit, eggs, poultry. Ranch upstate takes care of the rest of my protein wants. I can get local dairy at the stores by me, or hoof it to the farmers market.

    Parent

    If I could (none / 0) (#39)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 05:06:33 PM EST
    somehow raise chickens without the neighbors knowing, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  I'd have to do something about the bird feeders because it is not wise to mix domestic and wild avians.

    The biggest problem with raising chickens (other than the neighbors) is that you need to create a poultry version of Fort Knox to keep them in at night.  We think chickens are delicious and so does every carnivore and omnivore in the area.  Cats, dogs, rats, raccoons, coyotes - they'll be happy to dine on your layers and broilers.

    Parent

    Listening to KUSC FM opera show, including (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 01:43:48 PM EST
    "Tonight, Tonight" from West Side Story.  And Carol Vaness singing Tosca.  And Domingo, Pavarotti, and Carrera (separately, not as the Three Tenors).

    I was supposed to go see (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:16:47 PM EST
    Inglorious Basterds with my daughter last night.  Then she asked if West Point could come.  What am I going to say?  We had a very good time and it is shocking how we could both sit there happily munching popcorn together while Tarintino carved swastikas in the movie foreheads of movie Nazis.  My daughter says that he is only a friend, and they just talk to each other for hours.  I suppose it is pointless to confess that that this is how all my troubles started :)  She also says that she isn't interested because sometimes he gets on her nerves.  It probably wouldn't do any good to tell her that only people I care about have the abililty to get on my nerves :)  He is very interested in the upcoming baby too.  He's making it very hard to not like him just a little.

    Parent
    Ha. Patience they name is MT. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 02:19:32 PM EST


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    Interesting people (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 03:53:04 PM EST
    I love this: "only people I care about have the abililty to get on my nerves."  Bingo.

    A male friend once sent me a card with a note apologizing for having embarrassed me at a gathering the night before with something sort if intimate he had blurted out, and I found myself saying to him that people who aren't capable of embarrassing you once in a while aren't generally interesting or engaged enough to be worth being friends with.

    Parent

    Not sure I'll (none / 0) (#42)
    by Fabian on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 06:26:19 PM EST
    ever watch broadcast or cable television again on a regular basis.

    I was going to watch the final Kennedy ceremony and then decided I had other things to do.  My computer screen is small and doesn't do HD, but I can make my own schedule.  I started with years of working second and third shifts, went to the near 24/7 of parenting and now?  I have YouTube, and no broadcast TV, no cable TV.  I haven't done a nine to five shift in a very long time.  I like listening to BBC in the wee AM hours and NPR at 5 AM.  

    If television wants my patronage, they'd better come up with a better offer.  HDTV doesn't do it.  3D doesn't do it.  I can look out my window and see everything in 3D without paying a dime.

    I'm surfing channels for the first time (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 06:33:52 PM EST
    in a long time, lots of news channels, as I'm chained to my desk with work today.  Great visuals of the stop at the steps of the Capitol, the procession to Arlington Cemetery, etc., but throughout it was maddening to hear the anchors dominate CNN and MSNBC with their blather.  So I went to Fox for the first time in eons and got to hear not anchors but actual reporting, as mics were taken out of the comfy anchor booth and out to the streets to ask people why they were there. It was interesting and informative and refreshing. . .

    But then Fox went back to blatherers in the booth.  So I went back to work and to looking at the computer screen, instead.

    Parent

    CNN online was almost silent (none / 0) (#45)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:06:11 PM EST
    They didn't say a word until something that needed to be explained came on.

    Parent
    That's interesting about FOX. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Fabian on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 04:10:00 AM EST
    Caricatures are not the same as the thing itself.  Even if Fox often spins news to its own liking often, it doesn't do it all of the time.

    Parent
    This afternoon my hair dresser told me (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 09:04:41 PM EST
    TV informed her last night George W. Bush was not invited to the funeral mass.  But he was there.  She doesn't know which channel.

    Huh? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Fabian on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 04:13:12 AM EST
    I just googled "Bush not invited" and got almost no hits.  I'd think bloggers would be all over that if it were true.


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    Crazy huh AP stated all (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:21:19 PM EST
    Living US presidents were invited but 41 declined and sne this VP when he learned 43 would attend.

    Parent
    Saturday Afternoon Open Thread | 52 comments (52 topical)

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