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The President And The Secretary Of State

Unlike many of our readers, it is my view that President Obama has been a nearly flawless foreign policy President. And make no mistake, unlike some Presidents, President Obama appears firmly in control of his Administration's foreign policy. And one of his valuable assets in carrying out his foreign policy is his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Today's New York Times has a long piece on the relationship between the President and the Secretary of State:

Sixteen months after Mr. Obama surprised nearly everyone by picking her as secretary of state, the two have again surprised nearly everyone by forging a credible partnership. Mrs. Clinton has proved to be an eager team player, a tireless defender of the administration, ever deferential to Mr. Obama and careful to ensure that her husband, the former president, does not upstage her boss.

[. . .] Still, there is none of the deep familiarity or the tight bonds — the round-the-clock, back-channel access — of their predecessors, Condoleezza Rice and George W. Bush, or going further back, James A. Baker and the first President Bush or Henry A. Kissinger and Richard M. Nixon. “Hillary Clinton is the secretary of state,” said David Rothkopf, a former Clinton administration official who has written about the shaping of foreign policy. “The question now is whether she becomes a real adviser, and whether he trusts her.”

Rothkopf's comment seems a strange one to me and appears to buy into the idea that the Secretary of State should be the formulator of foreign policy. This accepts the view of Henry Kissinger, who viewed himself as a sort of foreign policy czar:

To make sure Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton talked to each other, White House officials scheduled a standing 45-minute meeting on Thursday afternoons. [. . .] The meetings are sacrosanct for the secretary: after her plane broke down in Saudi Arabia last month, a frantic Mrs. Clinton ditched her traveling press corps to flag down Gen. David H. Petraeus, commander of the United States Central Command who had been meeting with the Saudi king, for a ride home so that she would not miss her session with the president the next day.

But a weekly one-on-one in the Oval Office is a far cry from the access that some of her predecessors enjoyed. In a joint Newsweek interview with Mrs. Clinton in December, Mr. Kissinger said he made a point of seeing Mr. Nixon every day when they were both in town. “I see the president when I need to see him; I talk to the president when I need to talk to him,” Mrs. Clinton countered in her later interview with The New York Times.

I believe Secretary Clinton has it right. Kissinger, particularly during the Ford Administration (Nixon was not going to be rolled by anyone), was granted a sort of veto power by a weak President. That was bad for the nation. (Bush 41's relationships with Baker and Scowcroft were so close and longstanding that it would be impossible to recreate that type of scenario. Besides which, Bush 41 was very experienced and adept at foreign policy. Jim Baker was clearly carrying out the directives of Bush 41.)

The effectiveness of the Secretary of State might be an issue if there were some doubt that she was not carrying forward the President's directives on foreign policy and if there was some Kissinger-like figure in the NSC. Then the question of marginalization, a la William Rogers in the Nixon Administration and Colin Powell in the Bush 43 Administration, might become an issue. But neither scenario has emerged in the Obama Administration, given the President's tight leash on foreign policy.

There is one conceit in the Times article that always annoys me - the drive for "historic achievement" in foreign policy (which always seems to revolve around the Israel/Palestine situation.) From the article:

Mr. Obama has jealously guarded his prerogatives as the architect of American foreign policy, concentrating decision-making on crucial issues like Iran, Iraq and the Middle East in the White House. And Mrs. Clinton has yet to stake a claim to a core foreign-policy issue, the kind of signature role that would allow her nascent partnership with Mr. Obama to become a truly historic alliance.

Of course, they would have to make history first. So far, the administration’s foreign-policy ambitions have been marked more by frustration than fulfillment, from a stubborn Russia and a defiant China to the standoff with Iran over its nuclear program and a deepening conflict with Israel, where Mrs. Clinton has loudly given voice to the president’s dissatisfaction. Mr. Obama’s dominant foreign policy concern — the conflict in Afghanistan and Pakistan — is still a work in progress.

Foreign policy is ALWAYS a work in progress. Nothing is ever fully resolved. Indeed, the physicians' oath applies strongly here - first do no harm. Would that the Bush 43 Administration had not aimed for "historic achievements" - the world would be a much better place.

Thus, regarding the issues the Times ticks off - the Middle East (Israel/Palestine), Pakistan, Iran, China, Russia - it is the demand for "historic achievement" that leads to historic blunders. To the Obama administration's credit, they have tabled the "historic achievement" talk (in this sense, shunting the Israel/Palestine issue on to George Mitchell is brilliant, no reason for the President and the Secretary of state getting bogged down in a situation that is largely unmanageable -- Israel and Palestine have to work it out if they can) and have adopted practical, prudent and achievable objectives.

President Obama chose the very capable Secretary Clinton to carry out this new approach and he could not have made a better choice.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Yay! Hillary still knows her place! (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:45:11 AM EST
    Phew!  That's such a relief...now, we can all rest easy that there are no signs of her exhibiting anything other than the qualities of any good lap dog - what a nice NYT pat on the head!  That's the good news...

    The bad news is that, with Hillary firmly in a subservient position, it's gonna be a little harder to blame her if something she's carrying out at Obama's direction starts to go sideways, but since they can always blame her for NOT asserting herself, the Clinton Protocol is still firmly and safely in place.

    And, gosh - another article chock full of anonymous information from "insiders" who aren't supposed to be blabbing.  I'm so happy to know that Hillary and Barack are treating each other like nervous middle-schoolers as he plots strategy and policy and she steps carefully to make sure she doesn't exceed her authority.

    Is this really the best we can do?  "Frenemies?"  Really?  Joe Biden as the "note-passer?"  Their staffs have cute little names for each other's "camps?"

    I'm gagging here.

    [And just so we're clear on this - squeaky, I'm looking at you - I am not criticizing Obama, I am criticizing the author of the article.]

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:19:18 AM EST
    How far she has come under President Obama's tutelage from "tea parties" to getting the opportunity for real foreign policy experience. How lucky is she!

    (tongue firmly in cheek)

    Parent

    NYTimes and Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by norris morris on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:13:50 PM EST
    The Times article on Hilary Clinton wound up being snarky. "If he trusts her...........

    Secy's of State do not always make policy. They implement the administration's policies as a rule, with exceptions.

    Using the talents of Mitchell and Holbrooke is smart in  complex and dangerous areas, as they're  both very talented and knowledgable.

    I'm sure that Clinton's imput and preferences
    have are heard and considered and resspected.  She's probably very influential but does not compete with Obama as foreign policy leader.

    If he trusts her?  Is this asinine writer expecting Obama to call him and tell him?

    Parent

    if you mean this (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:18:21 PM EST
    "The question now is whether she becomes a real adviser, and whether he trusts her."

    he was quoting someone else.  
    and you have to admit after the rather, you will excuse the term, bitter primary and what has happened since it is not an unreasonable question.

    Parent

    What has happened since? (none / 0) (#151)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:11:07 PM EST
    and you have to admit after the rather, you will excuse the term, bitter primary and what has happened since it is not an unreasonable question.

    Explain?

    Parent

    you know what (none / 0) (#152)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:15:54 PM EST
    if I wasnt on my way out I would tell you.

    but I dont think I really need to.


    Parent

    OK, sorry you won't (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:21:54 PM EST
    I want to know what you meant and cannot read your mind.

    Parent
    And P.S. (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:24:58 PM EST
    When did you become such an arrogant d!ck? You used to be smarter and better than this. I remember from when I used to comment here as someone else. All I changed was my screen name. You--that's another matter.

    Parent
    thats more (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:46:23 AM EST
    than a little pathetic

    Parent
    To be clear (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:22:06 AM EST
    The President is the SoS's superior in the org chart.

    I find the language rather absurd as well, but it is not inaccurate.

    Of course the idea that a President has to "jealously guard" anything is absurd.

    Parent

    Agree (none / 0) (#111)
    by klassicheart on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:42:33 PM EST
    But I would also lay responsibility on Clinton, if,  in fact, she is going along with policy ideas she firmly disagrees with.

    Parent
    'Jealously guarded his prerogatives'? (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:53:04 AM EST
    Annoys me to no end when they inject a personal tone into it. Did they ask Obama if he feels jealous? I doubt they asked, and I have no idea of the answer, and neither does the author, really.

    Seems to me that Clinton is doing her job and not trying to do Obama's too, unlike Kissinger and Baker. Nor is she likely to mis-speak and call Obama her 'husband' anytime soon, as Rice did with GWB.

    thats an interesting paragraph (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:56:27 AM EST
    Mr. Obama has jealously guarded his prerogatives as the architect of American foreign policy, concentrating decision-making on crucial issues like Iran, Iraq and the Middle East in the White House. And Mrs. Clinton has yet to stake a claim to a core foreign-policy issue, the kind of signature role that would allow her nascent partnership with Mr. Obama to become a truly historic alliance.

    they seem to be nostalgic for a pushy republican secretary of state.  "yet to stake her claim to a core foreign policy issue?"  a odd thing to say

    Parent

    Media loves that storyline (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:14:54 AM EST

    they seem to be nostalgic for a pushy republican secretary of state.

    They'd love a power struggle so they could write about that instead of anything of substance regarding foreign policy.

    Parent

    You can just guess how they would (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:17:50 AM EST
    cover it if she did try to 'stake her claim to a core policy issue'. It would not be portrayed as part of a 'historic alliance' with Obama if Politico had anything to do with it.

    Parent
    really (none / 0) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:19:52 PM EST
    I can see the three inch red headlines at Drudge now.

    with flashing light.

    Parent

    No see (none / 0) (#74)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:24:08 AM EST
    following the constitution and virtually all historical precedent= jealousy, don't you get it.

    Parent
    Clinton (none / 0) (#130)
    by norris morris on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:15:48 PM EST
    Thanks for your on target comment re: Clinton as Sec'y of State.

    Parent
    General comment (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:23:57 AM EST
    Is it possible for the commenters to go through one thread without falling into absurd and pointless bickering?

    I really was of 2 minds about writing this post knowing it would invite more of the same but since everything I write ends up with the same bickering nonsense, I decided to go with it anyway.

    I think you might have your answer now. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:10:24 PM EST
    lol (2.00 / 1) (#107)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:08:02 PM EST
    You can make believe that you are playing umpire, but you are just piling on, iow you are flaming the bickering by making a non-impartial aside.

    Best to keep out of it, that is, if your intentions are to avoid bickering.

    Parent

    not from me (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:26:39 AM EST
    I said my peace

    Parent
    And you keep saying it (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:27:18 AM EST
    Give it a rest.

    Parent
    done (none / 0) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:29:58 AM EST
    I have been in the treads a lot for the last few days because I think this is a crucial for the health care fight and very important time to try to make sure disinformation is answered.

    but I actually have to work at work today.
     

    Parent

    Talk about health care (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:37:50 AM EST
    No need to stray into all the drama.

    Parent
    the drama follows me (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:40:07 AM EST
    but I will give it my best effort.

    Parent
    (Ha!) (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:20:08 AM EST
    While at times (none / 0) (#75)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:26:14 AM EST
    you've provided a much needed counter-balance, sometimes like this one its different- I mean the first comment to specific pains to clarify that it was the author not Obama that he/she was criticizing.

    Parent
    While at times (none / 0) (#76)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:26:22 AM EST
    you've provided a much needed counter-balance, sometimes like this one its different- I mean the first comment to specific pains to clarify that it was the author not Obama that he/she was criticizing.

    Parent
    it seems (2.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:46:56 PM EST
    they simply could not bear the fact that the article showed them both in a positive light and working together.  

    worst nightmare of some here.

    Parent

    Once again, you've decided you are a (none / 0) (#125)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:15:13 PM EST
    better interpreter of what someone else says than the person making the comments: do you have a 1-800 number people can call for more of your psychic revelations?  

    Disagree all you like with what people are expressing - no one objects to honest debate - but if the only way you can give yourself a win is to change the meaning of clearly expressed opinions, you might do better to just talk to yourself.

    Parent

    More Mysogynist (none / 0) (#131)
    by norris morris on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:17:57 PM EST
    Crap coming from the Times.

    It surprises that as Secy State she's a team player?

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:23:34 PM EST
    you misinterpreted the "trust her" bit I it seems to me the rest.

    I seemed pretty positive to me.

    Parent

    Your comments in the health care (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by dk on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:49:19 AM EST
    threads did not provide information, so I don't think your crusade was particularly successful.

    Parent
    that is somewhat ironic to me (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by CST on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:52:16 PM EST
    because I try really hard to provide relevant information.

    But I feel like whenever I do - that's the comment that gets ignored in a thread, not always, but often.

    Human nature I guess, we respond more when our buttons are pushed.

    Parent

    Maybe you could provide a link (none / 0) (#156)
    by dk on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:28:59 PM EST
    to an example of what you consider a comment of yours that provided "relevant information"?

    I don't mean to snark here, I'm atually trying in good faith to understand.  

    Parent

    what (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:48:43 PM EST
    a surprise.  Im crushed.

    Parent
    Is it interesting (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:34:06 AM EST
    That for all the nonsense about her only having attended "tea parties", and the wishful thinking that she would only attract Republican hate, that SoS Clinton has done such a good job so far, she enjoys the highest approval rating in the administration, and has been almost from the day she took her office - even a consistently high rating from Independents and Republicans.

    I too, like her in the role - I think she has done a marvelous job, and while there have been minor missteps (who ever has done a job perfectly?), I think it was a wise choice by Obama and she would have been wasted as VP.

    This article is silly - I don't think there was ever a close relationship between the two - how could there be?  There wasn't much time to work together in the Senate and then they competed for the same job. But just because two people aren't close, doesn't mean they can't work together to get a job done. How many of you would consider your co-workers close confidants?

    I also think she has done a marvelous job of just "doing her thing".  Had she been any more like Rice or Kissinger, and there would have been (even) more babbling that she "was trying to show him up" nonsense that has thankfully, mostly been relegated to blogs. She has already said she only plans at this stage to do one term and then retire - good for her - she's more than earned it.

    This is another case of the MSM trying to stir up trouble where there isn't any.  Must not be anything else going on in the world.

    how could there be? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:11:11 AM EST
    I think there could be because of globally important shared goals and ideas.  and two people who are big enough to leave the campaign behind and get to work.

    Parent
    They do seem (none / 0) (#78)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:29:06 AM EST
    to have a pretty good working relationship though, I mean its certainly not Bush-Powell where the latter seemed to have declared war the admin to attempt to regain the honor he sacrificed early on in the job.

    Parent
    It appears that Secretary of State (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:35:26 AM EST
    is a better, more impactful position than Vice President.  

    Biden is largely in Obama's shadow.  

    Hillary can eschew petty politics--and not getting bogged down in the health care debate or other domestic politics has to be a nice break for her.

    Hillary as Secretary of State has been a great choice....

    Parent

    I have a question (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by kidneystones on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:51:27 AM EST
    What specific fp goals are being met to justify a grade of flawless. Either he gets an A for putting the same color socks on on a regular basis or you've got a mighty strange idea of fp success.

    His own signature bills tanked. Climate change and international cap and trade got laughed off the map, huge chunks of Latin America and Asia are drifting out of the American orbit. If you're a Pat Buchanan neo-isolationist I can see how you might be pleased with America's steadily diminishing stature.

    So, what exactly has gone so well to win the 'flawless' accolade?

    He got rid of the (none / 0) (#26)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:02:01 AM EST
    "Bomb first, ask questions later" foreign policy position that his predecessor had. We're grading on a curve. :)

    I get your drift though, it's hard to imagine that anyone could bungle foreign policy worse than Bush. Obama by comparison looks like a genius just for bringing some semblence of diplomacy back.

    Parent

    I live in Asia (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kidneystones on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:09:52 AM EST
    The US Ambassador to Japan is an Obama bundler with zero fp experience, no area expertise, and no roots or connections to the region. Walter Mondale, Tom Foley, and Howard Baker all did credible jobs.

    The Brits are livid they can't get the time of day from the WH. China is openly dis-respecting the US, to say nothing of Israel and Iran. India is inching closer to Russia, Iran, and China over US ties to Pakistan.

    Not bombing people can't really be the metric for successful foreign policy, can it?

    Parent

    Although the U.S. is actually bombing (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:22:31 AM EST
    people.

    Parent
    Remind Someone (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by norris morris on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:35:01 PM EST
    that we are killing people every day in every way.

    Our Foreign Policy in this regard.....sucks.

    Parent

    Yeah but this time (none / 0) (#49)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:36:44 AM EST
    we didn't lie about our motives beforehand.

    I'm trying to remember a time we didn't bomb people. Even during the Clinton admin our "policy of containment" involved bombing. I guess if you buy enough bombs to blow up the world 100s of times over(while wagging your fingers at others for doing the same)that you need to blow things up to make room on the shelf for new bombs.

    I'm one of those crazy people though that doesn't laugh at the idea of a Dept of Peace. It would be welcome to see the State Department use a two prong approach and actually maybe include some foreign aid that wasn't supplied by our defense department in the form of arms.

    Parent

    True (none / 0) (#50)
    by kidneystones on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:37:31 AM EST
    I think for some folks, the question of why, how often, and where matter.

    But you're right. To follow through, I should state that there are no really easy ways forward after my way or the highway. Bush's second term is indistinguishable from the current fp policy. If anything, Obama is even less engaged than Bush, which speaks volumes.

    In for a penny, I'll add that I think McCain would have done a better job of staking out America's interests and re-assuring America's traditional allies. As Dems have learned, actions have consequences and whether we're talking about closing Gitmo or getting out of Afghanistan and Iraq, allowing Bush and Cheney to run wild meant electing someone sane, not someone who would start another war with Pakistan.

    Cue the 'bomb, bomb, Iran' quote. McCain is an asshat and would doubtless have horrified many with his gaffs. At this point, I've no trouble saying I think he would have done at least as good a job as the current President in almost every area. I certainly think he'd have done a better job of taking a stick to Wall St.

    Obama hasn't been able to make his personal popularity work for anyone but the insurance industry.

    Parent

    I actually had/have hopes for him (none / 0) (#70)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:18:33 AM EST
    in this one area. I liked that we started funding Abbas in Palestine. We know Hamas made headway over there because there was great need and Hamas was able to exploit that. Perhaps providing competition to them could allow us an opportunity.

    He wasn't hawkish in the primaries and FP was actually the one place he had the edge for me. Then again, I see our foreign policy as dysfunctional. Alot of times being interfering has appeared to be our "hands on" approach. More often than not we act without considering long term consequences, instead prefering to focus on immediacy.

    FP, in my opinion is definitely more complex then domestic. How we interact as a global community is not always easy to predict.

    Parent

    When exactly (none / 0) (#93)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:00:31 PM EST
    did any Presidential canidate (other than Kucinich, Paul and Gravel) talk about "getting out of Afghanistan"?

    Additionally, as far as "reassuring traditional allies" goes, I can see where the problems with the UK would be troublesome (though i would argue there overblown), what I fail to see is how the break with Israel is in anyway a bad thing- we've stood on a moral issue ("settlements") if anything we haven't pushed Israel hard enough I mean I'm sorry but when you get billions in military aid you don't get to throw a hissy fit when your patron is annoyed by your continued escalation of a dangerous situation.  

    Parent

    No its not indistinguishable (none / 0) (#94)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:03:05 PM EST
    the clear statements against torture, the drawdown in Iraq, and the new found support for International Diplomacy and negotiation are all breaks from Bush Admin. policy.

    Parent
    It can be when you are trillions (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:28:17 AM EST
    of dollars in the hole from the previous occupant's little jaunt into deciding we should reshape the ME.

    I don't ever remember China or Iran being overly enthusiastic about partnerships with us(although China does like our commerce and frankly Iran has some legitimate reasons to have a beef with us since I'm not sure I'd be over the whole install the Shah thing.) The Brits and Israel are somewhat new but I don't find it overly troubling. I daresay either of those two are so peeved they'll cut off having anything to do with us.

    I'd say out of all the things listed Pakistan and India might be the most concerning to me.  troubling scenario.

    Parent

    The US involvement in the ME did not (none / 0) (#52)
    by kidneystones on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:43:25 AM EST
    begin with Bush. I agree completely that he used the war to justify looting the public purse.

    Not everybody wants to see the US do well. China holds too much US debt to want to see the US tank overnight.

    We'll see. We survived Bush I and II, Reagan, and Nixon. I'm sure the US will survive Obama. I'm less sanguine about US fp and I think the lack of focus on jobs makes this administration and congress as bad as any in US history.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#66)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:07:14 AM EST
    nor was his idea of reshaping the ME or using deceit. Sadly enough. Pre emption was somewhat new though. I'm glad it failed. It'd be hard to see us bombing Canada because someday they might be a future threat(and yes I chose a ridiculous example purposely).

    Parent
    What (none / 0) (#89)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:54:05 AM EST
    How exactly is Obama's FP one with the Reagan, Bush and Nixon style as opposed to the Clinton approach which it clearly echoes (though frankly I would argue that Bush I and Clinton were very similar to each other and Obama on this approach- International Institutionalism balanced by pragmatic support for American Power).  I'm sorry but "as bad as any in American History" is just insane ODS.

    Parent
    16 million unemployed is a decent job (3.00 / 2) (#103)
    by kidneystones on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:23:35 PM EST
    according this 'sane' observer. You get your talking points directly from the TPM and go forth to 'explain' how everything looks really good if you just rub enough dirt in your eyes.

    I challenged you before to provide a number of unemployed that would represent a failing grade rather than the 'decent job' 16 million without work represents.

    Care to step up to the plate and provide a hard number that would win the oval office doofus a failing grade? I expect you won't.

    Since you asked, I'll give you two concrete Clinton victories that Obama couldn't come close to winning-the northern Ireland peace accord and the support and execution of the intervention in Kosovo.

    Obama has many of the same people involved, but maybe Obama isn't the problem. I mean he and Bill are like peas in a pod. Bill the governor and Rhodes scholar, and Obama the guy who snorted coke, won no academic honors as an undergraduate and still managed to get into Harvard Law.

    I bet the reason climate change failed, cap and trade is going nowhere, 16 million Americans don't have jobs, George Mitchell can't replicate the success of Ireland, no nation seems too interested in stepping up to help in Afghanistan, and Brazil and Iran are new best friends is a massive conspiracy to make your guy look weak.

    That's got to be the reason. It couldn't be that he got a free pass most of his life and can't even quit smoking.

    Watch me sink this three-pointer, Brett.

    Get back to me when you have the parts to provide a figure for failure. I bet you can't.

    Parent

    Jobs & Foreign Policy (none / 0) (#135)
    by norris morris on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:31:04 PM EST
    Foreign policy has a long way to go and with 2 wars, the detrius left by Bush and the complex fianacial and idealogical differences, it's bound to be a difficult slog.

    But I agree that jobs and the economy trump everything. Without the stability of employment,  growth, and financial reform we cannot lead in FP or much else.

    Parent

    You may live in Asia (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Politalkix on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:19:24 AM EST
    but why should that fact insure you against being irrational.
    Let me educate you a little bit. You may have been sleeping all these years but it is a fact that the Chinese have been "openly disrespecting" the United States for many decades. Remember the Communist Revolution in 1949, Korea, Vietnam, Tienneman Square massacres, US EP-3 Aries II spy plane hostages in China? That was even before the Chinese had so much economic muscle! Iran has been "openly" calling America "The Great Satan" for many years, neither in North America or Asia are such terms construed as signs of respect. India leaned more heavily towards the Soviet side of the fence during the Cold War, showed Nixon and Kissinger the middle finger when it liberated Bangladesh from Pakistan, was never bothered about Clinton administration admonishments when it tested its nuclear capabilities. It is also a fact that since the birth of Israel, America is used to agreeing with Israel more than Israel is used to agreeing with us; it is just one of the quirks but an accepted fact of our close relationship.
    The Brits can be livid as much as they like about not being able to sip tea in the White House but why should this be a metric in judging the success or failure of Obama's FP efforts? If you ask me, I would say that the Brits would be better served by their government if their elected representatives spent more time fixing their economy than anxiously waiting to get an invitation from the WH.
    The President, SoS and the rest of the America's FP team are doing a great job in FP. They are making the United States stronger and working towards solving global problems by using the right combination of force and friendship.


    Parent
    Ambassadors (none / 0) (#87)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:49:57 AM EST
    are unfortunately a patronage position- its basically the sole remaining historical link to the gilded age, and its always been that way- it clearly shouldn't be but what are you going to do.  Our ties to Pakistan, aren't exactly massive and I'm not sure how severing them to please India would be a good thing- frankly, the cost of Pakistan collapsing is far, far greater than price of Indian estrangement. China and Russia are arguably closer especially on the question of Iran than they were previously. The Brits have gotten the time of day, but not a super special relationship. Iran and Israel present an almost unanswerable dilema- Israel directly is being antagonistic (as is Iran) and appears to believe the US should obey its beck and call while still essentially subsidizing its military, in Iran we're faced with a problem where any strong American action could destroy the nascent anti-government movement.

    Parent
    2 things (none / 0) (#82)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:40:19 AM EST
    Climate Change was always going to be all but impossible at least formally (rather than executive level policies that could be reversed the next time around)- simply put if you look at it in terms of Treaty Ratification, outside of trade we're a rogue state: CRC, ICC, CBW, CTB, Kyoto and various international regimes are either rejected by the Senate or never submitted to begin with- simply put America doesn't sign on to things largely for structural reasons (the 67 vote requirement is insane- I mean for godsakes every president since Bush I has voiced American support for the CRC- the Convention on the Rights of the Child- and none have submitted it because it would be rejected outright and thus degraded the International Regime) .

    As for positives, I believe BTD holds the position that drawback in Iraq as well as doubling down in Afghanistan is the right thing to do (I would agree, but others on here clearly differ- Afghanistan was never opposed by progressives as universally as Iraq- for various reasons ranging from a clearly just casus belli to the especially odious nature of the Taliban to the danger of tolerating an unstable state on the border of world's sole muslim nuclear power). When you combine this with the rather dramatic reversal in world opinion on the US I can see the Administrations FP approach being praised.   I

    Parent

    Maybe there will be secret Oval Office (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:05:08 AM EST
    tapes.  

    Flawless? (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by klassicheart on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:43:57 PM EST
    I disagree completely.  But please do articulate where Obama's foreign policy has been flawless.  

    personally (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:31:48 PM EST
    I would rather read your articulation of why it is not.

    speaking only for me.

    Parent

    Gee (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:45:21 PM EST
    You're unhappy again.

    It keeps you busy.  

    Dislike a commentor?  Coming from you, that's priceless.  That gave me a chuckle.  :)

    Unhappy? (none / 0) (#160)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:08:26 PM EST
    Maybe in your dreams. Glad to provide you with a chuckle. And by process of elimination, it is door #3, but we have known that for some time now.

    Parent
    I love ya (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:57:32 PM EST
    but please dont give walden a hard time for calling out the name calling.

    its out of control.

    Insult? (none / 0) (#162)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:44 PM EST
    As much as I disagree with almost all of the comments kidneystones makes, calling him out for sarcasm, seems quite selective by the class monitor.

    Considering the rampant site violations around here, picking this comment by kidneystones appears to be less than even handed.

    When waldenpond was given the authority to delete comments during the primary, the deletions were less than evenhanded, so I am not surprised.

    But I do empathize, as kool aid poisoning leads to all sorts of imbalances.

    Parent

    that is a great piece (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:37:12 AM EST
    they were maligning it today on morning joe so that makes it even more so.

    while I still wonder what kind of president she would have been (will be?) I wonder if this is not the job Hillary was born to do.

    its hard to imagine anyone else in that role now.

    Hillary would have been a great president, not (none / 0) (#3)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:45:45 AM EST
    a doubt in my mind.  I'm still angry and sad about the way she was treated in the primaries, so undeserving of the mean-spirited things that were done to her.  And every day as my disappointment with Obama grows I am even more saddened at the way things turned out.  She is doing a remarkable job as SOS, though, and I'm so proud of her.  

    Parent
    That's the great thing (4.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:04:37 PM EST
    about a Hypothetical president- they can't disappoint you or let you down, and don't have to compromise to get things done.

    Parent
    Another great thing (none / 0) (#101)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    Hypothetical presidents can be used to deflect criticism or introspection of the current one by stating such intelligent comments as "But Hillary did....."

    Parent
    Also the great thing ... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:19:05 PM EST
    ... about waiting for a hypothetical "True Prog" POTUS that will never be elected.

    Parent
    good for you (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:48:49 AM EST
    I would respectfully suggest you consider making her proud of you by doing what she has repeatedly asked her supporters to do.

    set those bad memories aside and support this administration.

    Parent

    I don't offer blind support to politicians or (5.00 / 10) (#8)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:16:03 AM EST
    elected representatives no matter who tells me I should; I prefer to assess policies, actions and situations as they are advanced and occur and make my own judgments about them.

    I find it interesting that those who like to throw around the "Hillary cult" accusation don't seem to have a problem telling Obama critics to blindly support him - which seems like the kind of thing a cultist would do.

    Maybe you can tell us how blindly supporting actions and policies with which one does not agree provides any incentive for those things to change or be undone.  

    Unconditional support has its place, but the political arena is not it.

    Parent

    Does everything (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Madeline on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    written about anyone in this administration have to also praise Obama?

    As for doing what you think Hillary would want us to do is immature for informed, critical thinking adults.  We are beyond carrying our 'pleasing' on to politicians.  At least some of us.

    Parent

    oh for Christ's sake (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:10:54 AM EST
    she never asked that.  Even if she did, honestly, people have a right to their opinions.  Obama stole the nomination.  The DNC helped.  Those facts will not change anymore than the fact that Bush stole the election in 2000, by the same methods, refusing to count certain votes and lots of ballot stuffing. The majority wanted Clinton, not Obama.  Get it?  This is supposed to be a democracy.
    No I will not get over it and Hillary has never asked me to.
     Now you get over the fact that the rest of us are not sheep in the cult of Obama.

    Parent
    I said I wouldnt do this today (2.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:31:08 AM EST
    and I wont but I cant let that on pass.  there are only about 10,000 examples of her doing exactly that.

    google is your friend.

    Parent

    then do please (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:44:41 AM EST
    present us with a mere one or two examples of those
    10,000 examples of her doing exactly that.

    she asked us to support it, not blindly follow it over a cliff. trust me, there is a difference.

    secty. clinton is doing exactly what the job description requires: fronting for the administration's foreign policy positions, and being the pres's. "eyes and ears" abroad. it's not her job to forge her own policy positions. had she been elected pres., it would be. smart person that is, she's well cognizant of the difference.

    and no, i'll not soon forget the way she was trashed in the primaries, by both the obama campaign and the DNC.

    Parent

    we (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:14:26 AM EST
    know

    Parent
    When Obama got the nomination. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:45:25 AM EST
    and perhaps just prior to it being official, Hillary told her supporters that she intended to fully support Obama's candidacy, and said she hoped her supporters would join her in that effort; it was a team-player kind of thing for her to do, and a way of trying to defuse the anger that had raged over the entire primary season.

    She campaigned for Obama, as she said she would, and continued to urge her supporters to get behind the Democratic nominee.

    Since the election and her nomination and confirmation as Secretary of State, I have no recollection of her rallying the masses to support Obama's presidency; she has been entirely too busy and no doubt understands that if she wants to keep her job, she must know that her place is not to interfere in any way with what Obama is doing.

    Oh, and if I google any phrase that someone allegedly said, and get 23,276 hits, that doesn't mean it was said that many times on that many separate occasions.

    Parent

    so. . . . (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:48:07 AM EST
    the fact that she has not said it for a while means that is no longer her wish?

    k

    Parent

    So, now you are admitting that she (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:15:39 AM EST
    hasn't said it "for a while," so I guess that Google thing didn't work out too well for you.

    As to what Secretary Clinton's silence says about what she does or does not still "wish," I haven't got a clue - and neither do you; if YOU want to blindly support Obama, or support him because you agree with his positions, that's your right, and no one's looking to take that away from you.  

    Just please stop using Hillary to do what you cannot convince others to do on your own.

    Parent

    Why on earth would she say anything about (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:16:57 PM EST
    it now- the only people who still argue about this are those like us- a handful of political junkies on the Internet, the vast majority of people never cared all that much in the first place, and the fraction that do was further reduced in the runup to the 2008 election.

    Parent
    truly (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:59:33 PM EST
    is she supposed to make a statement to this effect every week?

    please support and do not trash the administration of which I am a central figure?

    Parent

    of course there is a difference (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:18:39 AM EST
    between blindly supporting someone and trashing them with every breath.

    and of course you are right.  Hillary wants you to do this.

    Im done BTD.  sorry.

    Parent

    No, no he didn't (2.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:13:36 PM EST
    and frankly unless you're arguing that Florida actually went Gore and/or would have gone Gore if Jeb et al didn't wrongly disenfranchise tens of thousands of African-American voters (positions I support) neither did Bush- both one according to the rules in place. Bush "won" the electoral college which while archaic and frankly stupid as hell is the constitutional mechanism by which we elect a President. Obama won the nomination under the rules of the party- he may have recieved less votes (debatable) but determining things purely in terms of votes (as opposed to delegates) would discriminate against those voters who live in Caucus states (you could argue that caucuses should be abolished, what you can't argue is that caucuses be disregarded after the fact simply because you disagree with the results the reached).  Finally, as far as cults go, its amazing the degree some will go to hate on Obama, seriously, its almost shocks me that the very same people who correctly (in most cases) attacked CDS are blind to their own ODS.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:17:50 PM EST
    Without rehashing the entire thing, as it was talked about ad nauseum here, the party broke their own rules and then reinstated them when it allowed them to get the desired outcome.  See Michigan and Florida vs. New Hampshire and Nevada.

    Parent
    Fantastic! (none / 0) (#123)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:09:02 PM EST
    Another 1 from MKS! Like sher and squeaks, a 1 is a badge of honor!  Means they have no actual good response!

    Thank you my friend!

    Parent

    Uh, just because she asked me to get over it (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:34:56 PM EST
    doesn't mean I have to or I will.  I don't blindly follow anyone.  And the people I'm angry at don't deserve my forgiveness.  The people who hated on Hillary for no reason, who lied to and about her, who ganged up on her because of her gender, who struck the bargain with the devil so that Obama got the nomination - well, those people can rot in hell for all I care.  I'm a grown woman who has lived through more than some of those people could even dream about, and I don't kiss anyone's a$$ and I don't just give up or give in because someone else thinks it's the right thing to do.  So, let me repeat:  I. WILL. NEVER. FORGET. AND. I. WILL. NEVER. GET. OVER. IT.  Satisfied?

    Parent
    neither satisfied or surprised. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:47:07 PM EST
    but its odd to me to be so upset about the supposed treatment of someone and in the same sentence make it clear you dont care what she thinks or wants.

    but I gave up trying to understand it.

    Parent

    Howdy, Obviously the primary (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ZtoA on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:32:54 PM EST
    caused tensions in the party and in some ways redefined it. In that case the party will lose some members.

    But I can't understand why you are so disrespectful and dismissive of dissent within a political party. Seems that you should consider yourself a big winner. You won your choice of President, and are going to get a health insurance bill that you have been demanding loyalty to. You like the makeup of the administration. So what's with the attitude? Be a good winner and have some grace to those who lost. If it is your intention to win dems back or to keep them in line it certainly will NOT work to shame them into it.

    Parent

    that is a very interesting comment (2.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:53:30 PM EST
    You won your choice of President

    so does that mean he was not your choice?
    does that mean McCain was your choice?

    and are going to get a health insurance bill that you have been demanding loyalty to.

    I am putting my support, which with me is usually vocal, with the entire elected democratic party in the hope of helping in any way I can to get the message out.  excuse me but that is a rather idiotic way of putting it.

    So what's with the attitude?

    its simple.  I would like them to stop whining.
    I am sick to death of it.  and as far as winning them back.  if "they" are interested in helping this administration and this party, terrific.  all are welcome.  if "they" are only interested in undermining from within under the cover of progressivism, well, thats another story.

    Parent

    Ha (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by ZtoA on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    " I would like them to stop whining."

    You are not very effective. Bullying is really not very effective. Neither is it inspirational, nor is it very helpful to your chosen political party.

    Parent

    you asked (none / 0) (#140)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:16:10 PM EST
    nice dodge (none / 0) (#141)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:17:05 PM EST
    on the president question btw

    Parent
    You need some reading comprehension skills. (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:29:58 PM EST
    I did not say that I don't care what Hillary thinks or wants.  What I said is that I don't blindly follow anyone, Hillary included.  But I'm not angry at her - read my post again and see if you can at least try to comprehend what I said.  Sheesh.  

    Parent
    you are angry (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:37:34 PM EST
    at how she was mistreated and she doesnt seem to think she was mistreated.  odd.

    you are willing to constantly criticize Obama on her behalf even though she has you not to. also odd.
    a clue:  you certainly are not following Hillary blindly or otherwise.  she left all this behing more than a year ago because she is a pro.  
    if you hate this president say so and dont hide behind Hillary skirts.  she doesnt wear them.
    she doesnt hate him.  and she has disowned that whole misguided group long ago.  dont act like you are doing this for Hillary.

    Parent

    How on earth (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:43:43 PM EST
    Do you know what Hillary Clinton thinks or feels? She's a good pol and knows what to say and what not to say, so you have no clue as to what she thinks about what happened.

    But I guess it's to be expected from people who also read Obama's mind when they say "trust him - he'll fix it."

    Parent

    I know one thing (none / 0) (#145)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:53:17 PM EST
    Hillary is a loyal democrat.  when she says she wants all the primary nonsense to stop she means it.

    I have no idea what the Obama remark is even supposed to mean other than a typical gratuitous swipe.

    Parent

    They can read her mind (none / 0) (#147)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:03:23 PM EST
    Comes with the secret decoder ring that tells you what you must believe in order to be a "true Progressive" or a "real Democrat".

    Didn't you get yours?

    Parent

    You don't know how Hillary felt about what went (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:01:56 PM EST
    on in the primaries.  You just don't.  And I have not constantly criticized Obama.  If you think I have then prove it.  I don't even post on these boards that often so to say that it's a constant is really stretching it.  And I've never said that I hate Obama so quit trying to put words in my mouth.  You are pissed off because there are many of us who won't blindly follow Obama, or anyone else for that matter.  And I never have said that I'm DOING anything FOR Hillary.  What I've said is that I'm angry at how she was mistreated and how the primaries went down and that I will never forgive nor forget.  You really need to get a grip.

    Parent
    Don't let their rote response ... (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:06:31 PM EST
    ... get to you.

    It's the only "argument" they can make.

    Parent

    now thats priceless (none / 0) (#150)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:09:56 PM EST
    coming from you.

    but this is becoming bickering so I will bid you adieu

    see ya sunday

    Parent

    Sunday? (none / 0) (#159)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 08:08:17 PM EST
    Because of the vote?  Preparing your "victory" speech for this "historic" legislation?

    (snicker)

    Parent

    I am quite sure (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:07:17 PM EST
    Hillary hated what went on in the primaries.
    I am also quite sure she got over it going on two years ago.

    Parent
    And probably expected (none / 0) (#155)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:25:51 PM EST
    before they even began.

    It's not like she was some dew-covered daisy right off the farm. Basement dogfights in the ghetto are dignified compared to the typical American election cycle.

    Thats just the reality, since like, the early nineteenth century.

    Parent

    Even when people explicitly explain (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 07:38:03 PM EST
    themselves, you insist on contradicting them.

    you are angry at how she was mistreated and she doesnt seem to think she was mistreated. odd.

    What's odd is that you think you have any idea what Hillary thinks or how she feels.

    you are willing to constantly criticize Obama on her behalf even though she has you not to. also odd.

    What's odd is that you believe that criticism of Obama comes on Hillary's behalf and not on the merits of what people expect of a Democratic president who promised he was going to change things and be transparent and accountable; why do you have to make everything about Hillary?

    a clue:  you certainly are not following Hillary blindly or otherwise.  she left all this behing more than a year ago because she is a pro.  

    That you think you have any clues to hand out to anyone is cracking me up...we are not sheep, took no loyalty oaths, have no obligation to follow, blindly or otherwise, behind ANY politician.

    if you hate this president say so and dont hide behind Hillary skirts.
     
    No one is hiding behind Hillary: YOU are the one who trots her out everytime it gets a little too hot in the commentary kitchen; you wear her around your neck like a crucifix, for heaven's sake.  

    she doesnt wear them.

    What does this even mean?  That Hillary's not like all the other "girls?"  Cheap shot, no surprise there.  Or was it one of your "jokes?"

    she doesnt hate him.  and she has disowned that whole misguided group long ago.

    Once again, you don't know Hillary and are not privy to her thoughts and feelings; that she can do a good job means exactly nothing in terms of who she likes and doesn't like.  Hillary never "owned" that "misguided group," so there was nothing for her to disown.  You, on the other hand have made no secret of your antipathy for the group, and never miss an occasion to make reference to it.

    dont act like you are doing this for Hillary.

    You are too funny; no one who is posting here is doing anything "for Hillary;" they are doing it for themselves.

    Just stop putting words in people's mouths, and substituting your own thoughts and feelings for others'.  

    Parent

    um, ann (none / 0) (#161)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:09:19 PM EST
    the reason I was talking about Hillary is because the comment I was responding to said this:
    The people who hated on Hillary for no reason, who lied to and about her, who ganged up on her because of her gender, who struck the bargain with the devil so that Obama got the nomination - well, those people can rot in hell for all I care.  I'm a grown woman who has lived through more than some of those people could even dream about, and I don't kiss anyone's a$$ and I don't just give up or give in because someone else thinks it's the right thing to do.  So, let me repeat:  I. WILL. NEVER. FORGET. AND. I. WILL. NEVER. GET. OVER. IT.  Satisfied?

    so leaving out all the Hillary obsession crap, what was that?

    last comment on the subject

    Parent

    Oh, Captain, come on... (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:19:33 PM EST
    you start things, put words in people's mouths, which they - rightly - feel compelled to correct, and when they do, you continue to misrepresent their comments and use their (eventually aggrvated) responses as "proof" of an obsession they don't have.

    So, what "that" was, Captain, was the frustration of expressing opinions that you refuse to accept at face value; you've been doing that to people for days now, and it's really putting people off.

    You've said repeatedly that you believe the president should be supported in whatever he's doing, no?  That to not support him is to risk Republican incursion.  Well, that is a risk, but what of the risk to us from policies and legislation that we do not believe is in our best interests?  How are we to justify sublimating our own interests - the kind that affect the quality of our daily lives, our ability to have a job, obtain and pay for health care, educate our children, maybe retire someday, be secure in our privacy, have autonomy over our own bodies - for a good that seems increasingly about an individual's success and legacy, and for the enrichment of corporate America?  And which is being engineered by a party that revealed just how little respect it has for the electoral process?

    Stop waving Hillary in people's faces: she is not the driving factor in why people object to Obama's policies, and we are not hiding behind her - you are.  You use her like a cherry bomb, creating a disturbance to avoid having to provide any substantive rationale for your apparently unconditional support for Obama and his initiatives.

    No one's preventing you from supporting Obama for whatever reasons work for you, but kindly have enough respect for the intelligent, articulate and educated people who comment here by allowing them to do the same.

    Parent

    Capt is the only one (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 01:30:58 AM EST
    still "waving Hillary in peoples faces"?

    That's a slightly egocentric characterization.

    What are all those - still ongoing - daily, embittered and largely irrelevant comments regarding
    Clinton's horrid treatment in the primaries, "everyone's a racist to these people" etc etc that  TL STILL can barely get through a discussion thread without? You cant stretch your imaginative capability to see how, after months and months of virtually the same tiresome, impotent, venting, that  this routine might start getting a tad frustrating to other visitors to the site?
       

    Parent

    I don't think I said he was the only one... (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 09:57:26 AM EST
    but he has spent the last five or six days taunting people with her - and by "taunting," I mean that he responds to people with accusations or assumptions about the origins of the commenters criticism; the only reason he's not lobbing the P**A bomb anymore is that Jeralyn banned the word - now he substitutes a euphemism.

    Honestly, I see very little primary re-visitation here, unless someone looking to stir up trouble [cough] [Capt. Howdy/squeaky] or lacking any other way to explain the ever-present criticism of Obama, brings it up.

    I know you will not agree with my perception, just as I know the Capt. will continue to stir things up just for the fun of it - he's admitted as much.

    Whatever.

    Parent

    There are a few P-bomb (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 02:09:30 PM EST
    recipients who have designated themselves as such here, if I recall correctly. And, being that this has always been a left-Democratic site (not necessarily  an exclusive, homage-to-the-Clintons site) I dont know why it's still such a difficult concept for so many here to grasp that SOME of the other posters here might be starting to get a tad irked by the still-ongoing "THEY threw us under the bus", "THEY called us racists", "How's the hopey changey workin' out for ya?" etc and respond in a similarly provocative way. The upshot is that democracy and plethora of voices and opinions is a noisy, raucous affair at times. But, my biggest problem is with the refusal on the part of most of the posters here to give up their (rather obvious at this point), personal vendetta toward Obama long enough to consider the fact that what we may be dealing with here is a deeply ingrained SYSTEMIC problem that, in effect, makes all of this ongoing emotional-fixation and wishful thinking about having the right leader as President - who really cares about people and who dosnt - who's a fighter and who isnt - next to irrelevant. We've allowed money and markets to assume preeminence and be (illusorily) disconnected from other values for so long --   and allowed those invested in that world view to have such an inordinate influence in the affairs of the nation for so long, that we've arrived at the point at which the only choices in political leaders now are between Wall St sponsored soft pawns and outright, unabashed pawns, with both sides covering themselves in a toxic coating of emotional button pushing symbolism and fatuous demagoguery that does nothing but increase the stupidity and confusion of the beleagured populace trying to make sense of it all.  

    Parent
    My Take (none / 0) (#175)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 04:15:49 PM EST
    It that with the onslaught the bulk of TL comments shifted to the right. Makes sense if you take into account the objects of their veneration. Wonder what the new demographics are... oh, right that is probably a bad idea as it would more than likely lead to forming stereotypes.

    Parent
    how dishonest (none / 0) (#170)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 09:40:17 AM EST
    are they willing to be?

    place your bets

    Parent

    this is absolutley correct (none / 0) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 09:44:21 AM EST
    she is not the driving factor in why people object to Obama's policies
    ,

    Parent
    We have absolutely no way of (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by cawaltz on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 06:19:35 AM EST
    knowing whether she felt she was mistreated or not. The fact that she is working within the administration means she could have simply felt that the good she could do in the position outweighed any ill will she felt toward the person who likened her experience to tea parties or called her husband a racist. On the flip side, she also could have seen the behaviors in the primary as simply politics as usual in DC, it isn't like this was the first time she was treated poorly(albeit usually it was from the other side of the aisle)or had her charecter maligned.

    My point being, just because she moved forward does not necessarily imply she felt what was done was right or that she didn't feel mistreated. It wouldn't be the first time Hillary Clinton displayed political pragmatism.

    I think its best to leave the reading of the tea leaves to each individual(and by that I mean implying certain feelings to other people without actual knowledge) and let them decide whether or not to follow in Hillary Clinton's footsteps. We each have our agendas, priorities, and lines in the sand. Hillary's path is Hillary's alone. Everyone else gets to choose their own path and make their own determination on the value of setting aside any ill feelings.

    I think it's just best to accept that some people may never choose to forgive at this point. Or that even if some have chosen to forgive, that there are even more that are never going to forget no matter who may implore them to do otherwise.

    Parent

    She asked this for the Presidential campaign (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by sallywally on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:13:18 PM EST
    and no doubt now doesn't want us to wage war against this Democratic administration.

    But I doubt that she expects us to give up our faculties of observation and analysis. All administrations are accountable to the public and should be reviewed honestly by us.

    To be critical isn't to wage war, or even to abandon support of the administration.

    Parent

    I'm pretty happy (none / 0) (#19)
    by CST on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:40:22 AM EST
    so far with foreign policy.  It has been very very nuanced on a lot of tough issues - China, Israel, Iran, etc...  A welcome change from the "with us or against us" rhetoric of the last few years.  This admin has been unafraid to take stances on issues, but does so in as diplomatic a fashion as possible so as not to create uneccessary tension.

    I think the SOS, P, and even VP have all been very good in this regard.

    IMO (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:54:38 AM EST
    when someone is put into the SOS position they are often seduced by the limelight.  it amazing that Hillary has stayed pretty completely out of the limelight and not by accident.  I wonder which is more difficult keeping herself out of the headlines of keeping Bubba out of them

    Parent
    I think when someone has already (5.00 / 7) (#37)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:17:10 AM EST
    been First Lady of Arkansas, then First Lady of the US for eight years, and then a US Senator, and handled all the glare that came with Whitewater and Ken Starr and the impeachment, it should come as no surprise that "limelight" is something one would neither seek out nor spend any more time than necessary in, nor be remotely seduced by.

    Her disinterest in the limelight and her passion for hard work make her eminently well-suited for Secretary of State.

    Parent

    Not amazing (none / 0) (#24)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:57:41 AM EST
    it's just how she works. Was the same as Sen.

    I think both of them find it pretty easy to stay out of the headlines unless needed.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:00:15 AM EST
    I would disagree that Bubba finds it easy to stay out of the headlines.  and I bet Hillary would as well.

    Parent
    well of course (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:04:51 AM EST
    that is what the media tells you is so about Hillary and Bill.  


    Parent
    I have been following (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:13:58 AM EST
    Bill and Hill since before many commenters here were born.  they both have stayed in the houses of my family members when they were running for governor of arkansas.  I dont need the "media" to tell me about the Clintons.

    Parent
    If you can go back and read that (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:30:00 AM EST
    comment of yours and not burst out laughing at your flawed logic, well, you're trusting your credibility isn't tied up in what you say.

    Two people stayed at a relative's home 35-40 years ago for a few waking hours, and because of that no one knows more about those people than I do. Smile. You're. On. Candid. Camera.

    Parent

    of course thats not (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:32:27 AM EST
    what I said.  but have fun


    Parent
    Well, in this millenium (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:35:04 AM EST
    Being pretty close with people who worked with her and did stuff like, oh, actually scheduling her events and advancing them, I can tell you many of the conversations they had amongst themselves was of logistics and how HRC knew she had to do certain events, but really didn't want things certain way because they were too showy.

    But hey - what do those people know?

    Parent

    not sure why you think I would (none / 0) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:41:21 AM EST
    disagree with any of that.  she is an extremely private person.  what I said was the job of SOS can sometimes overpower that and thrust people into the spotlight.  she has avoided that and I applaud her for it.  I am not surprised.

    I AM a little surprised at now effectively she has kept Bubba on a short leash.

    Parent

    The man is not an idiot (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:49:48 AM EST
    It's one thing for him to act stupidly when it's his own butt on the line, but maybe he feels like he owes her and he is also smart enough to know that after false allegations of racism and other bs, it's better just to do his thing and act the statesman.  It's a better paying gig too.

    Parent
    if you dont think (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:53:49 AM EST
    that both Hillary and Obama were worried about him you are very much mistaken.

    they were.  she has talked about it.  

    Parent

    They (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:15:24 AM EST
    ran for governor of Arkansas?  

    Parent
    40 years ago (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:24:42 AM EST
    :) and, they haven't learned a thing, or changed a bit since then.

    Parent
    yes "they" (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:29:36 AM EST
    did. if you dont know that you dont know the Clintons

    Parent
    I guess (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:33:24 AM EST
    That makes Michelle a co-president, since she too was running for office.  :)

    Parent
    of course that is a completely (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:56:15 AM EST
    different model.  Bil and Hil were always a team in arkansas.  always a package deal.  and in fact most people understood even then that she was the smartest and most capable of the two.
    the Obamas were never like that.  she is much more in the role of a traditional political wife.

    there has never been anything much about Hillary that was traditional.

    Parent

    Thank goodness (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:04:52 AM EST
    there has never been anything much about Hillary that was traditional.


    Parent
    I wouls also say (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:13:28 AM EST
    that in my opinion Bill would never have been more than the governor of arkansas without her and possibly not even that.

    as much as I like the guy.

    yes, "they" most definitely ran.

    Parent

    Can't agree Hillary (none / 0) (#73)
    by brodie on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:20:43 AM EST
    hasn't been traditional.  She has.  Starting with her 2d term as FL of Ark -- following the first re-elect when she'd prominently kept her unmarried name, then after Bill lost, iirc, she changed it to include Bill's name.  

    Similar thing when she was Flotus and had her wings clipped by the Beltway Estab following the health care debacle -- she reverted to more tradition FL ways thereafter for the most part.

    Ditto for her freshman senate term -- lie low, keep quiet, and listen to your elders.

    Don't get me started about her too-traditional and rather unimaginative presidential run -- the Orthogonian strategy.

    As for SoS, okay so far, but the next year, year and a half will bring some major decisions in Afghan, and questions about whether Iraq is stabilized -- turning point matters that this admin will soon have to confront.

    Parent

    I would agree with some of that (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:27:02 AM EST
    particularly about the election.

    but the other stuff . . .

    she was only doing what she always did.  trying to help Bill and make him look good.

    trust me.  it was not her choice.

    Parent

    And you think Michele is happy (none / 0) (#79)
    by observed on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:31:34 AM EST
    doing things only to make Obama look good?
    I don't imagine many politician's wives don't have regrets.

    Parent
    I never said a word (none / 0) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:33:16 AM EST
    about Michelle

    Parent
    Yes, you said that Hillary was a different (none / 0) (#83)
    by observed on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:41:29 AM EST
    sort of politician's wife. Obviously that implies something about Michele.
    Same goes for Laura Bush. I think LB hated being first Laddy.

    Parent
    it "implies" (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:49:33 AM EST
    nothing about anyone except in your mind.
    as usual

    Parent
    IT means that not only can't (none / 0) (#106)
    by observed on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:59:33 PM EST
    you read other people's comments, you can't understand your own. If you says Hillary is special, it means that she is different from other politician's wives---e.g. Michele.
    Geez, you're like a block sometimes.
    The point I'm getting at is that  I think you have a sexist presupposition that in general politicians' wives are subservient AND happy with it. I really doubt such is the case.

    Parent
    Bill said early on "Two for the price (none / 0) (#90)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:55:24 AM EST
    of one."

    Michelle's is a fascinating story.  Her chief of staff was(is?) John Kerry's former campaign manager.  She came on board just as Michelle was becoming a lightening rod for criticism, e.g., the "really proud" remark.  An Ivy League lawyer with a high paying and significant job.   She was one or two stories away from becoming Angela Davis (fair or not, that is where this was headed.)

    But, now, she has become a traditional First Lady.  Her signature issue is support of the families of our soldiers....Brilliant choice. You could tell when the change started--she told Larry King during the campaign she wanted to emulate Laura Bush....

    Michelle has been quite strategic in her public persona and it has worked--she is very popular and there are no negative stories about her.  I wonder, though, how much she is involved behind the scenes.  No doubt, they saw what happened to Hillary and did not want to go that route.

    Parent

    Actually her signature issue (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by cawaltz on Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 06:32:26 AM EST
    is nutrition and obesity in children according to everything I have read.

    I find Michelle pretty boring at best. I don't see her passionate about much even her signature issue. I am biased though. I dislike women who blame other women for a man's infidelity. Michelle will never live her comment made towards Hillary down and I will likely always dislike her for it.

    Nope, the best thing I have to say about Michelle is she has two adorable daughters.

    Parent

    I think it was both (none / 0) (#102)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:22:19 PM EST
    a reaction to the way Hillary was treated in the White House and the frankly shocking treatment Michelle recieved I mean the "Black Power" caricature was insane but that didn't stop it from forming- if the media was aleady that rabid had been given a thing like Health Care?

    Parent
    No, its pretty (none / 0) (#100)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:18:26 PM EST
    hard to argue that Bill Clinton didn't love the spotlight.

    Parent
    I wish (none / 0) (#85)
    by star on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    'Bubba' stayed in limelight a bit more - miss him and wish there was some way he could have had a 3rd term. Tired of the drama of this rookie administration.. this is not the change i signed up for ..sigh...
    extremly frustrated since my husband and sister and brother-in-law all changed from a D to I in the last week,while I seem to the be only one making calls to susan kosmos's office to vote Yes.. it is highly frustrating turn of events in such a short time.The High of Nov 08 seems to be a fading dream.. I have never seen a president who inspires so little among his ranks.. where and how did candidate Obama go once he got to WH?

    Parent
    wishing doesnt make it so (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:53:53 AM EST
    Obamas numbers are not in a bad place considering what he has had to deal with.  in fact considering that I think they are in a pretty good place.

    where did Candidate Obama go?  he became President Obama.  a very different thing.  and he still inspires a lot of people.  personally (and I realize I am inviting a flock of "1s" by saying this) I am finding him easier to live with as president as we go along.  as much as I loved Bill Obama has a much better temperment for the office.  they will never trap Obama with a sleazy Monica Lewinski styled trap.  I think we should all be able to breath a little easier for that.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:02:26 AM EST
    She really has any trouble staying out of the limelight - it's really not her thing.  She's the work horse.  Now Bill, may be a different matter.

    But then again, maybe that was part of the infamous deal made at Feinstein's house - it's already been reported that part of the deal was that she had absolute control over hiring - a definite break in precedent, so if you look at the top State political jobs - they are mostly her people that she knows and trusts because they have experience and were not Obama campaign people being rewarded with political jobs. From all reports so far, the career employees at State have seen her entrance as a breath of fresh air - there's definitely a change in the working atmosphere from many, many years past.  

    Just speculating here, but maybe another part of that deal was that she stays more low key, but is really doing more advising and leading on foreign policy than is being let on for both their sakes.  

    Parent

    Hillary said in an interview(Vogue, November) (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:50:32 AM EST
    that she was planning to stay in the Senate and that he offered her the job after he was elected. She turned him down but later relented. To my knowledge, she has never revealed what went down at Feinstein's house but it apparently wasn't the SoS appointment.

    That interview was a fascinating read- I recommend it. Hopefully, it's still available at Vogue.com.


    Parent

    great article (none / 0) (#62)
    by CST on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:56:49 AM EST
    I'm not a big vogue reader but between that interview and the article on the pregnant reporter in afghanistan in the same issue i couldn't help myself.

    It definitely gives a pretty good perspective on their relationship.  Starting with the fact that they didn't hate each other nearly as much as their campaigns did, and they kind of forged a grudging respect for one another over the course of the election.  But he definitely had to talk her into the position, she did not originally want the job.

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:04:22 AM EST
    All speculation as only 2 people really know went down.

    No, I don't think they hate each other - they're politicians and 99% of what they show is just that - show.

    But he wasn't around the Senate long enough for them to become close.  No surprise.

    It really doesn't matter.  She's doing a good job, as many people expected, except those who rendered their clothing after her nomination was announced.

    Parent

    The meeting at DiFi's house (2.00 / 1) (#92)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:58:13 AM EST
    was just after the Primary ended and (according to public accounts, most notably hers) before she was offered and turned down the position of Secretary of State.

    Parent
    I guess I'm not sure (none / 0) (#23)
    by dk on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:55:19 AM EST
    I see the Rothkopf quote posted here as so problematic.  I mean, I agree that that it's not the job of the Sec. of State to "formulate" foreign policy, but on the other hand shouldn't it be one of the Sec. of State's functions to be an adviser on foreign policy?  The balancing act, of course, is to discern the fine line between adviser and formulator.

    yikes (none / 0) (#28)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:02:46 AM EST
    this article is the worst kind of gossipy bullsh*t.  Do people really get paid to write this stuff?

    yes, yes they do. (none / 0) (#59)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    Do people really get paid to write this stuff?

    and if you write enough of it, you get invited on all the sunday talk shows. if you keep at it long enough, you get inducted into the "village". having brunch with sally & cokie is just an added perk.

    Parent

    Flawless (right wing) Foreign Policy (none / 0) (#56)
    by Yes2Truth on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 10:48:22 AM EST

    Yes, indeed.  The military/intelligence complex, along with its puppeteers, would no doubt agree that Obama's foreign policy has been flawless.

    Now, WHEN is Chavez going to be seriously threatened, but allowed to choose exile in the D. Republic...or Honduras?

    Um what (none / 0) (#104)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 12:24:30 PM EST
    seriously, what in the current admin's approach even suggests that they're doing this sort of thing in S. America?

    Parent
    How's he doing on global warming (none / 0) (#65)
    by observed on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:05:21 AM EST
    negotiations?

    This (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    is the kind of thing that the press does that thinks that they're helping Obama but in fact are really hurting him.

    A least he can claim some success in the FP arena because he sure has been a disaster domestically.

    Red Meat (none / 0) (#91)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 11:56:49 AM EST
    The NYT et al. seem to be stirring up the pot, with all the red meat references to the campaign, presumably in order to excite/incite their readers with a potentially brewing scandal. Also they lament "the drive for "historic achievement" in foreign policy" is missing in this administration. I agree with BTD that this is a great thing. But the quest for world domination sells papers, unfortunately the side effect is fanning permanent wars that destabilize the world, a neocon ideal.

    <blockqoute>"They haven't gotten the things they've wanted to get," said George Friedman, chief executive of Stratfor, a risk analysis company. "There's precious little to show for it."</blockqoute>

    imo, the NTY misses neocon rule: fomenting domestic fear and world instability not only served the neocons in their quest for permanent rule, it also created exciting stories for NTY readership, a true marriage.

    Too bad those who cancelled their subscription because of emblematic Judy Miller, have such little bargaining power both then and now, lol.

    I rather enjoy the ones (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    as Bubba would say its a hit dog that howls.

    even funnier (none / 0) (#118)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:54:00 PM EST
    when you make fun of them for that and it becomes giving a "5" to anyone who responds to you for any reason.


    Parent
    Question (none / 0) (#117)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:53:22 PM EST
    General comment (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:23:57 AM EST
    Is it possible for the commenters to go through one thread without falling into absurd and pointless bickering?


    whos (none / 0) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:55:53 PM EST
    bickering?

    Parent
    #109 n/t (none / 0) (#122)
    by Spamlet on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:07:16 PM EST
    So President Bush II must have been nearly (none / 0) (#157)
    by bridget on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 06:47:50 PM EST
    flawless just like the foreign policy president Obama. Why? Because

    NOTHING HAS CHANGED - NOTHING
    http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley03162010.html

    Because Nothing Has Changed
    Why Do They Still Hate America?

    By BRIAN CLOUGHLEY

        "The demilitarization of Europe--where large swaths of the general public and political class are averse to military force and the risks that go with it--has gone from a blessing in the 20th century to an impediment to achieving real security and lasting peace in the 21st."

        --Robert Gates, New York Times, February 23, 2010

        "I'm amazed that there's such misunderstanding of what our country is about that people would hate us. I am - like most Americans, I just can't believe it because I know how good we are."

        --George W Bush, October 11, 2001
    --
    re Hillary Clinton

    "Mrs. Clinton has proved to be an eager team player, a tireless defender of the administration, ever deferential to Mr. Obama and careful to ensure that her husband, the former president, does not upstage her boss."

    Doesn't the fact that HC enjoys to "serve at the pleasure of War President Obama"  want to make you weep in huge disappointment?

    I just about fell from my chair when I learned that she joined his admin as his SOS ... busy travelling the world banging the war drums.

    Live and learn!