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Will The Obama Administration Damage The Dem Party?

Paul Krugman:

I was on Good Morning America this not-so-good morning, doing what I could. But I was struck by something that George Stephanopoulos said: he claimed to have been speaking to an administration official who asserted that what we need to get businesses investing is for business to know that the government has stopped — presumably, that means no new spending, no new regulation, whatever.

GS is a careful guy, so this must be true. And it’s shocking — not that people are saying this, but that someone inside the administration is saying it. [. . .] We’ll never know what might have happened if Obama and [C]o. had actually had the courage of their convictions; what we do know is that they have undermined their own message at every turn.

Not clear what their convictions are regarding the economy. One thing seems clear though - the Obama Administration is a clear and imminent danger to the political fortunes of the Democratic Party in 2010 and 2012.

Speaking for me only

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    asdf (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:46:28 PM EST
    "what we need to get businesses investing is for business to know that the government has stopped"

    ????  What?

    Businesses invest when they see opportunity.  Nothing more and nothing less.

    On what basis to they assert that reduced government spending has a direct impact on an uptick in business investment?

    opportunity (none / 0) (#44)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:49:43 PM EST

    Businesses invest when they see opportunity.  Nothing more and nothing less.

    Not quite.  Opportunity exists only if the risk and cost are such that there will be a sufficiently positive return on the investment that is more attractive than the alternatives.

    With the health care bill and the financial reg bill it is hard to know right now if an opportunity is a good one or a bad one as the costs these two bills will impose are not at all clear at the present.  Further, since the tax rate on dividends may triple next year and the cap gains tax increased substantially as well, the need to earn sufficient return to justify investment risk means that a lot of what were opportunities no longer are.

    As you may recall, Herbert Hoover's prescription to a business down turn was increased regulation, big increases in tax rates, and increased federal spending.  

    Parent

    Bingo! Give the man a prize from any table... (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:02:36 PM EST
    The issue was, is and will always be.... Return on Investment. ROT

    And when the upfront costs are unknown and when the future costs are unknown and when the future market is unknown.....ROI cannot be calculated. There is no way to put together a reasonable believable business plan for way too many in the business community.

    Parent

    How would the government ceasing to spend (none / 0) (#79)
    by esmense on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:50:50 PM EST
    decrease uncertainty?

    Without government spending programs, subsidies, etc., American business would grind to a halt. You wouldn't have investor uncertainty -- you'd have an easily predictable investment disaster.

    What segment of the economy do you work in? Energy? Defense? High tech? Agriculture? Import/export? Finance?

    Do you really think the American tax payers aren't helping to support your job?

    Parent

    Quoting (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 06:43:17 PM EST
    With the health care bill and the financial reg bill it is hard to know right now if an opportunity is a good one or a bad one as the costs these two bills will impose are not at all clear at the present.  Further, since the tax rate on dividends may triple next year and the cap gains tax increased substantially as well, the need to earn sufficient return to justify investment risk means that a lot of what were opportunities no longer are.

    You can add to that the planned end of the Bush tax cuts and a desired tax on carbon. Investors do not like unknowns and right now the world is a scary place.

    Also please note that I was not attacking government spending per se, although it is obvious that spending on such things as NPR, etc., during a time of exploding deficits is highly questionable.

    I'm retired. After 10 years in Naval Aviation; 37 years in telecommunication equipment manufacturing (large systems)in engineering, product management, marketing, sales and sales management.

    Parent

    NPR! Oh brother (none / 0) (#129)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:39:41 PM EST
    That's a real budget-buster for sure.

    Parent
    You know, more and more I think (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:52:35 PM EST
    that they are just winging it over there in the White House and, yes, that's very bad for the Democratic Party.  But I never thought that the Obama camp really cared for or about the party.  I think they used the machine that they had access to in their quest for power.  Now that they are in the power position and they are struggling, it is every man for himself - the party isn't a priority.

    Different party (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:54:05 PM EST
    and a much dimmer President.  But essentially what Bush did to the Republican party.

    Parent
    Oh, I think Bush was and is far more (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:09:14 PM EST
    invested in his party than Obama could ever be in the Democratic Party.

    All presidents are going to do some of this stuff from time to time, but most understand the importance of and value of the party that got them there and that can help keep them there.  These guys with their digital political campaign jazz seem to be convinced of their own omnipotence - convinced that they can go it alone - and that that is not a realistic assumption.

    The party is "the base" and their digital campaign jazz was the "attract" that added the layer that they needed to get the win, but they never could have had that win without that base - ever.

    I actually can't think of any other modern president who did not understand this basic rule of American democratic - with a little "d" - politics.  Can you?  Even Clinton who had to play both sides of the aisle understood this basic concept.  Still to this day, he works pretty hard for the party - not the people I like necessarily - but he understands the need to tend to his party and keep it in tact.

    This kind of thinking borders on imperialistic thinking - problem is that no matter how you cut it - a president needs votes to stay in office and those votes have to come from somewhere - discarding the machine is a crazy.

    But, in an odd way, I'd say that if Obama were to lose in 2012, it would be somewhat legitimate to say that HE lost and that the Democratic Party had little to do with it given how irrelevant they seem to be in the White House's calculations.

    Parent

    Dems will have to peel off from him (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:16:34 PM EST
    though to hope to politically survive.  His economic policy is going to crash the whole economy into the burning fires of hell.  I suppose they are all (Summers, Geithner, Bernanke) panicing like hell because Wall Street is falling, as if it wasn't going to.  There isn't anything legit supporting it and judgement day is here.

    Parent
    The Obama Administration bet on (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:26:16 PM EST
    private interests doing the bulk of the heavy lifting to get out of this recession/depression thing rather than taking the problem on full force themselves.

    It was a dumb bet given the fact that, really, they could have had whatever they wanted at the time when they were doing the stimulus.  Some claim that Congress was a real obstacle.  I would say that the Obama Administration's decision was the obstacle.  Because no one would have crossed him at that point - his credibility then with the American people was far too strong for Congress to go against.  Thing is that they didn't really have to "go against" the Obama Administration.  The OA conceded early that they could do fine with less - and it was a BAD bet.

    You know, that they could always turn the money off down the road - or could have built in triggers that would have stopped it if it was "too much", but they thought they were going to be uber-popular forever and that they could always go back to the well.  FOOLS.  

    Parent

    Agree keeping the Party (none / 0) (#41)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:44:40 PM EST
    and its base on your side is important for a president.

    I actually can't think of any other modern president who did not understand this basic rule of American democratic - with a little "d" - politics.

    I can think of two Dem presidents who didn't adequately take care of their party and understand its importance come re-elect time:  LBJ and Jimmy Carter.  Carter wasn't so much anti-party as somewhat careless about keeping the liberal base securely inside the WH tent.  

    LBJ was totally anti-party, preferring to quietly defund the DNC as he sought to have all political power flow through him in the WH.  By 1968, when he (or his VP) needed all the political help he could muster, there was no strong party remaining to help carry the election banner against Nixon.

    Too early to tell with Obama, but he'd darn well better wake up and give the namby-pamby political operatives the back of his hand on the deficit cutting question.  Obama is not as stubbornly proud as JC nor as power-hungry as LBJ, but on the economy I seriously doubt he's remotely as smart as the fast-learning serious student JFK.  

    All this makes me very nervous heading into the fall.

    Parent

    You assume - or maybe just want to (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:18:44 PM EST
     believe - that Obama is just asleep, or being led astray by advisors, instead of being wide awake and fully on board with what's been happening, and actively participating in the plans for where it looks like things are headed.

    I'm sorry - it is impossible for me to believe, having looked at the totality of the last 18 months, that what we are seeing and living isn't exactly what Obama wants.

    If there is any waking up to be done, it's going to have to be the voters who do it, and if that bodes ill for November of 2010 and/or 2011, so be it.  I'm through voting for someone just because of the (D), just because he or she is marginally better than the other guy.


    Parent

    Excellent comments (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Yes2Truth on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:37:13 PM EST

    IMO, O will not seek a second term, thus, while he probably doesn't like being associated with high unemployment and all the rest, his eyes are on the dollar prize that awaits the Obama family, starting in January, 2013.

    Parent
    "...O will not seek a second term..." (none / 0) (#112)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:04:17 PM EST
    and in that regard we have our own Sarah Palin.

    But, before you start flaming...think; quite a few similarities.

    The one that pops up first, the seriousness with which they sought the job. neither did it for the right reason....IMO, of course.

    Parent

    This Admin reminds me of movie (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:29:21 PM EST
    the "Candidate".  Lead played by Robert Redford; invested so much time and energy on the campaign, when he finally succeeded, he found himself clueless.  Bringing on board your campaign manager has extended the campaign approach to governing.  But no amount of spin and no great speaches will replace the public's impression, based on an Admin's record, as to whether or not the Admin and its leader can govern effectively. When Clinton brought Gergen on board to help his foundering 1st term Admin, the first thing Gergen told Clinton was to get rid of campaign advisers and "yes" men.  In addition, the "team of rivals" approach has reinforced a tendency not to act, but rather tro debate proper approaches. Whereas time spent debating has contributed to the view that things are not getting done, the constant change in approach to various issues has contributed to the view that the Admin is pandering to polls and either does not have a clear vision of what's best for the country, is unwilling to state that view and chart a definitive course -- i.e., lead, or wants to have it all ways.  

    Parent
    There's a good (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:37:43 PM EST
    and very long piece just up over at HuffPo entitled Mayberry Machiavellies about the Dem split over Obama and how public polling on deficit reduction has been misunderstood.  On public sentiment towards attacking deficits, Obama seems not to be digging much behind the headlines to see whether the headlines, as conveyed by Axe and Emanuel, are accurate.

    Then another post by Peter Daou about the left-side debate and how Obama has failed to energize his side and how he should be doing much more both in the substance and framing.  Both articles I find are more in accord with my increasingly frustrated sentiments about the O admin at this time.

    Parent

    What Obama is not doing (none / 0) (#111)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:03:10 PM EST
    is deciding what he thinks is important to do or not do regarding the deficits for the best interests of the nation, and then leading, by making his case to the public and following through with governance.

    Parent
    BTW (none / 0) (#115)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:08:06 PM EST
    Michael Lind has a piece at Salon indicating that the public (60%) actually favors government spending to create jobs and provide stimulation for the economy.  Link also at realclearpolitics.

    Parent
    74% on another (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:42:11 PM EST
    ["With unemployment close to ten percent and millions still out of work, it is too early to start cutting back benefits and health coverage for workers who lost their jobs," said 74 percent of voters, while only 21 percent agreed with this statement: "With the federal deficit over one trillion dollars, it is time for the government to start reducing spending on health care subsidies and unemployment benefits for the unemployed."]

    and misunderstanding (I would guess purposely by Republicans) when people express the deficit... trade deficit with China, jobs deficit with China, and inequality in spending (bailing out WS while ignoring workers).

    Mayberry Machiavellis

    Three recent polls show nearly half list jobs first and in the Fox poll (highest for deficit) deficit came in way behind at 15%.

    Parent

    Obama doesn't care about polls (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 11:38:01 PM EST
    and he certainly does not want to hear what the majority of Americans, many of whom are in dire straits, are clamoring for. This president is more concerned with keeping Republicans and the corporate masters of the universe happy. Let's not forget, countless polling showed that a majority of all Americans -- not just Dems -- wanted a public option included in health care legislation. We know how that turned out.

    Parent
    Yoi...well...goodness (none / 0) (#130)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:45:12 PM EST
    Dear shoephone: Knowing that it is far better for me to say nothing, yet your comment just hit me...in the wrong place.  This is not meant to be a direct response, tho, to your comment indicating your perception of what a President really wants. No, it is only a rebuttal to all those (myself included sometimes) who--when disappointed or otherwise not in agreement--point to the one in authority in a given situation and say "I know why you really did this, because you <can't stand/hate/dislike/have a nefarious scheme/secretly reject/whatever>...." We all have our quirks, and one of mine is wanting to yank at my hair at projections and nightmare scenarios that reflect a speaker or writer more than the one about whom the person speaks.  

    So...I guess that my response to you is based in emotion and concern as well. Perhaps, we are both just venting.

    Parent

    Yoi...well...goodness (none / 0) (#131)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:47:35 PM EST
    Dear shoephone: Knowing that it is far better for me to say nothing, yet your comment just hit me...in the wrong place.  This is not meant to be a direct response, tho, to your comment indicating your perception of what a President really wants. No, it is only a rebuttal to all those (myself included sometimes) who--when disappointed or otherwise not in agreement--point to the one in authority in a given situation and say "I know why you really did this, because you <can't stand/hate/dislike/have a nefarious scheme/secretly reject/whatever>...." We all have our quirks, and one of mine is wanting to yank at my hair at projections and nightmare scenarios that reflect a speaker or writer more than the one about whom the person speaks.  

    So...I guess that my response to you is based in emotion and concern as well. Perhaps, we are both just venting.

    Parent

    Difference between (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:44:08 PM EST
    BO and JFK, IMO, is that JFK, as wealthy as he was, never forgot ordinary folk.  It is this caring about the less fortunate that I think of when I think of the traditional Dem party, and which I find so lacking now.  The latest evidence -- Pelosi's sneaking a required up or down vote on the Commission's recommendations to raise full retirement age for Social Security to 70 and privatize 20% of Social Security monies. First step toward gutting Social Security and allowing the Admin to use Social Security monies to help reduce the deficit.  This is not the Dem Party I used to know.  

    Parent
    When JFK enacted those tax cuts (none / 0) (#135)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Jul 08, 2010 at 12:00:48 PM EST
    it was the downtrodden he wanted to help.

    Seriously, I am as big a fan of the Kennedys as anyone but JFK could not hold a candle to LBJ's War on Poverty and Great Society.  Actions speak louder than words and are far more enduring.

    Parent

    Huh? You think when (none / 0) (#76)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:33:42 PM EST
    he took office that he wanted to have 9.6% unemployment 18 months into his admin, with still a precarious r/e situation and increasing talk of a double-dip recession or even another Great Depression?

    I doubt it very much.

    I think we're looking at a president not very well versed in economics, without the intuitive sense, as FDR had, of the proper course to follow, w/o the ability, as JFK had, to quickly bring himself up to speed sufficient to be able to wisely and confidently decided in this area between competing arguments from advisors.

    I don't think he's an ideologue on deficit spending, pro or contra, not remotely in fact, but I suspect he's just confused and conflicted at the moment as to what to do -- status quo and hope for improvement or go back and ask for another large stimulus program in an election year.

    We'll see if the light finally goes on in his head.  Meanwhile, it's still only July of midterm year, and unlike my headstrong impatient youthful self, ca 1978, I'm not going to pull the plug quite so early on a president from my party.

    Parent

    FDR and JFK both had (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:50:22 PM EST
    leadership and executive experience.  POTUS is not a position that lends itself well to OJT.

    Parent
    But...but (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:56:27 PM EST
    Experience doesn't matter!!!  How could anyone get experience without being POTUS first????

    <snark>

    Parent

    FDR??? (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by diogenes on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:02:29 PM EST
    We had a double dip under FDR and the depression only really ended due to wartime production for world war II.  I hope Obama hasn't learned too many lessons from FDR.

    Parent
    A recent Republican (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:04:43 PM EST
    talking point attributes the end of the depression to WWII. There are, of course, many avenues to rebut this revisionist line. Lets just refer to a component: Injecting money and federal programs into the economy shortly after taking office led to decreasing unemployment and an energizing of the economy; then, history records, that--with the advice of cautious and other advisors--FDR began to pull back in the belief that the economic situation would continue to improve without massive injection of federal programs/aid/$$. It didn't. There are a number of books and charts to reference on this point, but --of the top of my head--I believe that the dip back came after the pullback of government capital about 1936ish. A reinjection saw a renewed uptick...and, THEN, war preparation (and the related $$ growth)came thereafter.

    It does seem, tho, that the revisionism about FDR began a few years back with a conservative thesis dedicated to "proving" said point.

    Parent

    And just because WWII did insure that (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 11:48:50 PM EST
    everyone went to work doesn't mean that the only way to put a nation to work is to take it war.  That is only what happened that locked up the recovery that had already taken root.  We can choose to put ourselves to work though in times of peace.  We can vote in those who will enable us all to be put to work.  Alas though, we have not lived in such a self starter economy so are we psychologically prepared to put ourselves to work?  I don't know.

    Parent
    Oh I hope he's learned (none / 0) (#110)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:58:48 PM EST
    the two basic lessons, one positive one negative, from FDR:  the positive one from 1933-6, when he spent to put people to work, and the negative one from 1937, when after a massive landslide re-elect and feeling somewhat comfortable about the improved employment situation, he gave in to his fiscal conservative side, with disastrous results.

    Apparently Obama has read on FDR and is aware of all this.

    Parent

    What Christine P said (none / 0) (#116)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:26:33 PM EST
    and thank heavens that someone did.  You need to read some more history of the Second New Deal for yourself, diogenes, so as to not spout this ahistorical revisionism by those who do not have your best interests in mind when they mess with your mind about that era.

    That is, they do not have your best interests in mind unless you are a Wall Streeter betting against the country so as to benefit from this economic mess.  

    Parent

    The 2008 primaries & election are over (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:54:56 PM EST
    But not the lessons ... (4.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:31:45 PM EST
    ... that were learned, and continue to be learned, ...

    ... every day.

    Parent

    Lessons (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:51:45 PM EST
    People learn different lessons. As you say, everyday. In the political sphere, I "came of age" (& learned harsh lessons) in 1968 and 1972. Bottom line: I am very pleased to see incremental movement in a number of areas.

    Parent
    Some are happy (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:45:53 PM EST
    ... but many are dissatisfied with the many broken campaign promises and poor tactics exhibited by this administration.  The high expectations created by the progressive blogs and fed by candidate Obama didn't help.

    Others are happy because Obama is better than Bush.

    Guess your mileage varies.

    Parent

    And all of us are "experiencing" (3.67 / 3) (#83)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    the results.

    Parent
    Confused and conflicted? Why? (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:44:35 PM EST
    Because he so often says one thing and does another?  Because he says one thing today and something else tomorrow?

    When I look at what his actions are, my conclusion is that his rhetoric is designed to distract, to keep people thinking one thing, while he is busy doing just the opposite.

    At every turn, who or what has he come to the rescue of?  The top tier - the very industries and "savvy" businessmen that have brought this country to the brink - and instead of exacting some price, some penalty, or seeking some accountability, he has given them exactly what they want.

    Is the Deficit (Cat Food) Commission the creation of a confused person, of someone in conflict?  I don't think so. I think that is the creation of someone who believes in the theories and principles that frame that commission.  If it were not his intent, his plan, to keep cutting from the bottom, he has the power and the authority to can every last one of the so-called advisors and come up with something that won't exact further suffering on the part of people who have already suffered enough.

    Did he want high unemployment?  The easy answer is, "of course not," but what's on the other side of that - what is he doing about jobs, what is he demanding of Congress to do about jobs?  Is spending billions of dollars on a broadband initiative that will create 5,000 temporary jobs how we're going to resurrect the economy?

    I guess the question I would ask you is, do you still feel like this is "your" party?  Does the New Democratic Party mirror your values, your interests?  Is it taking you where you want to go?  Does it still value you, is it still listening to you?

    See, I don't think this is "my" party anymore, I don't see the party listening to me, I don't think they value me, I don't find its values meshing with mine anymore.

    And, honestly, a thousand klieg lights could go off in Obama's head, and all it would illuminate is that he is just exactly who and what he has been from Day One.

    Parent

    Brava!! (none / 0) (#100)
    by rennies on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 07:50:40 PM EST
    Definitely the Cat Food Comm'n (none / 0) (#108)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:53:45 PM EST
    gives me pause.

    As for your party arguments, this Nov there will be individual members on the ballot, with a range of views and progressive tendencies worthy or not of support.  But Obama is not on the ballot.  

    Right now he badly needs to bring his game to a higher level, and roll up the sleeves on jobs and unemployment, using all the powers of his office.  But ultimately the final decision there will have to wait until after Nov and beyond.

    Meanwhile I've got a decent progressive Dem rep to again vote for plus the very good Boxer for senate and Brown for gov.  No problem voting party there.

    Parent

    Or Clinton in the 90s (none / 0) (#125)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:29:22 PM EST
    This is another unfortunate Obama-Clinton parallel- floating above the party.

    Parent
    Obama, Power, & Competence (none / 0) (#114)
    by norris morris on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:07:38 PM EST
    I agree that there is trouble in Paradise and Obama is clearly not in control of the message.

    This new statement leaking like BP oil from the WHouse about investment spending is ham handed, confusing, and stupid.

    The BP crisis was fudged off at first, and then  later on finally responded to. But the framing of any message then or now is not clear, effective, or to be trusted. At best Obama has come off like a ditherer who politically chose to downplay BP spill because he didn't want to own it. Politics.

    The advice Obama is receiving seems rag tag and  ineffective. Lots of different points of views offered and the impresion left with we the  citizenry is that Obama really doesn't care.

    Yes I do think he'll hurt the Democrats, and as a staunch Democrat I am concerned that it could be fatal. The White House doesn't seem to know what it's doing........or doesn't care.

    What a wasted opportunity by Obama whose lack of   political skills are so obviously lacking and necessary in this political climate.


    Parent

    Is there a difference between (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:52:39 PM EST
    the Obama Administration and the Democratic Party?

    Well, yes and no... (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:29:19 PM EST
    My take on this is that the seeds of the Democratic Party's destruction were sown by the party, itself, when party leaders decided to (1) embark on a huge push to elect Blue Dogs and conservative Dems to Congress and (2) groom an unknown - Barack Obama - for the presidency.  

    What has "happened" to the Party isn't the result of evolution or accident, but of deliberate and focused planning; can you imagine what the Party might look like today if an effort had been made to push more liberal candidates, to put time and money and focus into more traditional Democratic initiatives?  If someone with more liberal leanings (and I don't mean Hillary, although I think she is more liberal than Obama) had been groomed for the presidency?  Does anyone ever wonder why, when the Republicans were so clearly going off the deep end, when George Bush and Dick Cheney were only slightly more popular than bubonic plague, the Democratic strategists decided the best thing to do would be to become - at least to all appearances - what Republicans would have wanted if they could have found sane and rational candidates?

    Because that's what they've managed to do; these savvy political minds have managed to associate - in a relatively short time - a long list of horrible policies with the Democratic Party - the only good news they can offer is, they're not "as bad" as the other guys.  And the label on Barack Obama may be "progressive" or "liberal," but that's like calling a well-cut piece of window glass a diamond.

    Are Obama and the Democratic Party interchangeable?  More than anyone wants to admit, I think.

    In all fairness, Obama and his administration are not so much damaging the Democratic Party as they are growing just fine in the garden the party leaders planted for them.

    Parent

    Answer: The Obama administration (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    will do wonders for the Republican Party.

    The Republican party is just flat nuts though (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    There is a horrible imbalance in the force.  The Republican party leaders certainly want this too because it is what those who line their pockets want.

    Parent
    Sorry, but the White House is just flat nuts (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:47:01 PM EST
    if this plan to do nothing to fix the economy turns out to be true.

    Then, given a choice between two flat-nuts options, one that is nuts on social issues and one that is nuts on economic issues, it would not be flat nuts for jobless Americans -- and all the others of us affected by the jobless Americans in our families and among our friends -- to go for the social-issues nuts.

    Maslow's meta-theory of the hierarchy of needs (food and shelter come before philosophical causes) is the theory that Obama and his economists need to study up on now.

    Parent

    They are worried because the market (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:58:55 PM EST
    has gone Bull on them.  I truly think Cream City that if "stabilizing" the "markets" as they understand them, something that is no longer tangible because of what they have done to them, means that people must die......they are going to kill a few people.  They will tell us a few died to save the many and I think they are fine with that.  That is the only rational thing I can think that fits with the choices and decisions they have made up to now.

    Parent
    lets be frank (none / 0) (#50)
    by CST on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:16:39 PM EST
    the social-issues nuts are also nuts on economic issues.  But the social-issue nuttiness is the appeal, not the detriment.

    Parent
    We all love a good (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:19:45 PM EST
    Cadillac Welfare Queen burning.

    Parent
    Not always (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:27:04 PM EST
    I can think of several Republican friends (all women, oddly) who are not social issue nuts, but are really big on economic and military issues.  Most of them are pro-choice, not religious (or not overtly so), all have professional jobs (so they are not the "stay at home while the man goes out to work" types) with advanced degrees, I think they all have gay friends (or at least social acquaintances) and are at worst, neutral towards gay marriage.  It's a small sample, but I don't think economic conservatism and social conservatism necessarily go hand in hand.

    Parent
    that's not what i was saying (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:45:05 PM EST
    CC's post (to me) implied that those who would normally agree with Dems on economic issues would now vote for Republicans because Dems are not doing enough for the economy.

    My point is, if you agree with Dem economic principles (not talking this admin, but the historical platform) and you are voting Repub, you are doing it BECAUSE of the social issues, not in spite of them.

    If you don't agree with Dem economic principles (economic conservatives) obviously it's a different story.

    Parent

    Nah, I think CC's right (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by sj on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:05:41 PM EST
    It would be in spite of the social issues.

    My point is, if you agree with Dem economic principles (not talking this admin, but the historical platform) and you are voting Repub, you are doing it BECAUSE of the social issues, not in spite of them

    As one who agrees with the Dem historical platform (and sees no trace of it in the present), if I were to vote Repub it would be in spite of the social issues.  Food and Housing for my family comes before food and housing for the general population, I'm sorry to say.  Although I agree that there is some segment of traditional Dems who have been influenced by wedge issues.  Hard to deny that.

    The thing is believing in "Dem economic principles" as I do, doesn't make me pull the lever for some one who doesn't.  No matter what party.

    Having said that I understand what she means here:

    Then, given a choice between two flat-nuts options, one that is nuts on social issues and one that is nuts on economic issues, it would not be flat nuts for jobless Americans ... to go for the social-issues nuts


    Parent
    If this is the case (none / 0) (#72)
    by CST on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:10:39 PM EST
    "believing in "Dem economic principles" as I do, doesn't make me pull the lever for some one who doesn't"

    why would you vote republican?  They don't have those economic principles.  That's my point.  Not saying a Dem does either, or that means voting Dem, but it makes no sense to me why you would vote for someone who disagrees with you on social AND economic issues.

    Parent

    You really don't get it? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:18:36 PM EST
    I repeat: Maslow's hierarchy of needs. . . .

    The economy is the number-one issue for all voters, again and again.

    Their number-one issue is not the candidate's party.  You think that those voted Dem are all Dems?  Really?  Heard of Independents?  Heard how their numbers are increasing. . . ?  Hmmm, why?

    Parent

    And THE #1 issue with the I's (none / 0) (#74)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    The economy (aka: jobs and fed deficits/spending).

    Parent
    There you go again (none / 0) (#95)
    by sj on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 06:37:39 PM EST
    conflating concern for jobs with concern for deficit spending.

    I can tell you for a fact that while I am personally very, very concerned about the job issues, my only concern about the deficit is that the PTB are talking about deficit reduction instead of deficit spending.

    If the I's are worried about deficit reduction then, they aren't currently receiving unemployment compensation.

    Parent

    Whoa, hold on a second there (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by sj on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 06:29:03 PM EST
    I, myself, won't actively pull the lever for a Republican either -- unless s/he demonstrably believes in traditional Dem principals.  You know, as in a real live voting record. I refuse to vote against my interests any more.  

    Having said that, I can see how a voter not so ... umm... nuanced ... as myself could pull that R Lever.  With plenty of righteous anger behind it.

    Parent

    The problem is turnout, not defection (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by esmense on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:44:59 PM EST
    People who are disappointed by the Dems won't necessarily vote for Republicans -- they will, instead, feel they have no one to vote for and not vote at all.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by sj on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 06:33:50 PM EST
    While this is a separate situation from CC's point, it is a serious issue.  But apparently only to those of us in quandary.  

    There still seems to be the attitude that we have nowhere else to go.  And while that's true, apparently our "Leadership" hasn't considered the possibility that nowhere is exactly where we might go.  On the other hand, maybe, rather than going nowhere, I'll look for a nice Irish bar as soon as the polls close.

    Parent

    I ought to have included it (none / 0) (#97)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 06:48:36 PM EST
    as a point, yes, that in addition to the angry (and, as it is so nicely put, perhaps less nuanced) voters who may think only about their economic issues and vote Republican . . . more problematic for Dems may be the nonvoters, so angry or apathetic about politicians disappointing them that they stay home.

    That is interpreted as the key to the Republican losses in 2006 and 2008 -- low turnout, so that the overall 2008 turnout was not as good as in past.  

    The Dems won with a lot of first-time voters.  Will they vote again?  Anger is at least a sign of caring, of listening.  The apathetic public always is the most difficult to reach, the turned-off public that simply will not listen -- especially those who did listen but will not do so anymore, because the messages turned out to be b.s.

    Parent

    If many Repub leaders (none / 0) (#107)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:45:59 PM EST
    were not so extreme on various issues, the Dems would stand to lose many more seats in Congress than currently expected. In other words, the extreme positions of many Repubs is the only thing standing between a complete and partial rout of the Dems in Nov.

    Parent
    Seriously (none / 0) (#126)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:35:24 PM EST
    this could end up being the worst Dem year since Clinton's first mid-term debacle, and we might pick up KY because they nominated an actual insane person (self-accredited Dr.- how did that not raise red flags).

    Parent
    asdf (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:59:01 PM EST
    Isn't it time we stop caring about the "Democratic" party and start caring about the country?

    That's so 20th Century.... (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:04:21 PM EST
    The Dem party has done a huge amount (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by tigercourse on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:43:06 PM EST
    of damage to itself. Obama is no great shakes, but the rest of them are just as bad.

    I read today on Talking Points that the Dems have decided to start focussing on jobs. NOW? They are 18 months too late. Might as well start bailing out the Titanic.

    And the back and forth (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:34:19 PM EST
    of supporting reduction of the deficit one day and expenditures to increase jobs the next is so transparent, that voters do not trust the Admin to do either.

    Parent
    I thought it was clear that Obama... (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:37:21 PM EST
    ...was far too post-partisan to heel at the call of mere party politics.

    Wasn't that his entire schtick? Of all the other things people are disappointed in, the last that should come as a surprise is this. In fact, the dem establishment should have seen this coming, and they should have seen it as a huge risk. But the dem establishment, it seems clear, has only established one thing: that they ain't really democrats anymore.

    As a woman sold down the river by (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:06:32 PM EST
    the Democratic Party perpetually on everything  from birth control, to partial birth, and to my own right to be allowed to make my own decisions concerning reproductive choice without someone else being allowed to weigh in based on THEIR belief set........

    .....Or as a person who was maligned as either racist, stupid, or  some rabid closet Republican for believing this would come to pass back when half the party was told they didn't matter let me say this couldn't happen to a nicer political party.

    This was when (none / 0) (#127)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:36:49 PM EST
    you were telling the other half of the party it was sexist not to go to the back of bus and wait their turn right?

    Parent
    That's quite the imagination ... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Yman on Thu Jul 08, 2010 at 08:07:51 AM EST
    ... you have.  I don't even have to look at cawaltz's comments to know that that only occurred in your head.

    Parent
    Mort Zuckerman (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    Shares the feeling.  Not good when a vocal supporter is this down on you:

    The American people wanted change, and who could blame them? But now there is no change they can believe in. Sixty-two percent believe we are headed in the wrong direction­--a record during this administration. All the polls indicate that anti-Washington, anti-incumbent sentiment is greater than it has been in many years. For the first time, Obama's disapproval rating has topped his approval rating. In a recent CBS News poll, there is a meager 15 percent approval rating for Congress. In all polls, voters who call themselves independents have swung against the administration and against incumbents.

    Even some in Obama's base have turned, with 17 percent of Democrats disapproving of his job performance. Even more telling is the excitement gap. Only 44 percent of those who voted for him express high interest in this year's elections. That's a 38-point drop from 2008. By contrast, 71 percent of those who voted Republican last time express high interest in the midterm elections, above the level at this stage in 2008. And these are the people who vote.

    Republicans are benefiting not because they have a credible or popular program--they don't--but because they are not Democrats. In a recent Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, nearly two thirds of those who favor Republican control of Congress say they are motivated primarily by opposition to Obama and Democratic policy. Disapproval of Congress is so widespread, a recent Gallup poll suggests, that by a margin of almost two to one, Americans would rather vote for a candidate with no experience than for an incumbent. Throw the bums out is the mood. How could this have happened so quickly?

    SNIP

    The president failed to communicate the value of what he wants to communicate. To a significant number of Americans, what came across was a new president trying to do too much in a hurry and, at the same time, radically change the equation of American life in favor of too much government. This feeling is intensified by Obama's emotional distance from the public. He conveys a coolness and detachment that limits the number of people who feel connected to him.

    Americans today strongly support a pro-growth economic agenda that includes fiscal discipline, limited government, and deficit reduction. They fear the country is coming apart, while the novelty of Obama has worn off, along with the power of his position as the non-Bush. His decline in popularity has emboldened the opposition to try to block him at every turn.

    Historically, presidents with approval ratings below 50 percent--Obama is at 45--lose an average of 41 House seats in midterm elections. This year, that would return the House of Representatives to Republican control. The Democrats will suffer disproportionately from a climate in which so many Americans are either dissatisfied or angry with the government, for Democrats are in the large majority in both houses and have to defend many more districts than Republicans. In any election year, voters' feelings typically settle in by June. But now they are being further hardened by the loose regulation that preceded the poisonous oil spill--and the tardy government response.



    Zuckerman (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:02:30 PM EST
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the well-spoken, educated, and billionaire Zuckerman a Republican who built his fortune with a center-right publication? (Don't get me wrong, I find Z. fascinating...but, I do not believe that he was what-would-be-classified as an early supporter. Rather, he appeared to be one enchanted by the well-spoken and suave persona of Obama the candidate.)

    Parent
    Zuckerman has not shown himself (none / 0) (#86)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:15:09 PM EST
    to be a Republican, nor for that matter a Democrat.  His reported contributions have been slightly in favor of the Dems.  

    Rich, yes but that doesn't make him an automatic "R".

    It has also been reported that he said he voted for Obama.

    IMHO, he appears to be having the same realizations and walking the same path as many independent thinking folk.

    Parent

    Again, I enjoy listening to Z (none / 0) (#92)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:57:15 PM EST
    Because he has a business outlook that is a bit more than just CEO big business. He is a bit more --IMO--intellectually honest than Brooks, e.g. The Rockefeller/Percy/Scranton type of that old northeast school. (But then, I'm not a Republican nor a Republican-leaning independent. Just a yellow-dog Democrat.)

    Parent
    Given his absurdly (none / 0) (#128)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 12:38:36 PM EST
    Likudnik views of Israel, you'll forgive me if I'm not suprised he turned on Obama - guess what Marty Peretz isn't as big on Obama either.

    Parent
    Losing Republican support (none / 0) (#85)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 05:09:17 PM EST
    say it isn't so.

    Republicans were a small portion of those that voted for Obama.  I imagine Obama is more concerned with moderates and Dems rather than billionaire, Republican Zuckerman.  At least I hope so.

    Parent

    He wrote, as I recall (none / 0) (#99)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    Many flattering pieces about Obama and was a supporter early on - supported him privately and publicly.

    But he's not pulling any punches, and I don't think what he's saying is wrong.

    Parent

    What's most disturbing to me (none / 0) (#109)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:58:35 PM EST
    about Zuckerman's writing is the public's view that the takeaway from this Admin is that big government is the problem.  Where are the voices of reason explaining that big government is not the problem, but how "big" government is used that is the problem.  Only real leadership can turn this around.

    Parent
    You left out the best paragraph from (4.91 / 11) (#2)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:37:30 PM EST
    Krugman's post this morning:

    It's garbage, of course: businesses are refusing to invest because they don't see enough demand for their products. And administration economists know that it's garbage. But obviously some people in the WH -- I'm guessing a political person, but who knows -- have bought the right-wing line hook, line, and sinker.

    "[t]he right-wing line" - pretty much says it all, I think.  

    It isn't just going to be damaging to the fortunes of the Democratic Party, it's going to be damaging to a lot of other things: the economy, the social safety net, the ability of state and local governments to fund education and infrastructure.  As hard as it has been for the economically hardest-hit among us to survive, the Obama administration's approach to spending is going to see millions more who used to think of themselves as middle class learning survival skills; it's not going to be pretty.

    I guess what I am having the hardest time with is the conscious plan taking shape to make economic policy decisions that will only benefit a small slice of the populace, something that seems so counter to traditional Democratic philosophy of lifting people up - of enabling people to lift themselves up.  The underclass is growing, the contrast between the haves and the have-nots is dangerously stark; the Democratic Party under Barack Obama seems indifferent to suffering, dismissive of need.  Unless you a member of a too-big-to-fail industry, or report your income in seven or eight figures - when these people whine, the Obama administration cannot help them fast enough.  Unemployment running out?  No way to cobble together enough work to make a decent living?  Oh, well - too bad.  Can't have you growing accustomed to a life of leisure on the government's dime, now, can we?  

    That's not my Democratic Party - a party which could have led a New Deal-type campaign, but apparently doesn't want to.  

    At this stage, what truly positive difference will having Democrats in charge make to the majority of lives?  And "better than the other guys" is not a "positive difference" - especially not when Democrats now are so much worse than Democrats of five years ago, and there are no signs that downward spiral is going to end anytime soon.

    I will have much more interest in the fortunes and future of the Democratic Party, when it has some interest in mine - and that interest doesn't consist of finding more ways for me to sacrifice so that the rich can keep getting richer; until then, it can just pucker up and kiss my...

    This time 2 (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:42:51 PM EST
    I will have much more interest in the fortunes and future of the Democratic Party, when it has some interest in mine - and that interest doesn't consist of finding more ways for me to sacrifice so that the rich can keep getting richer; until then, it can just pucker up and kiss my...


    Parent
    Amen, sister (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Zorba on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    It's not my Democratic Party, either.  I keep saying, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party- the Democratic Party left me."  Heck, many Republican office-holders in past years would be considered flaming lefties not just by the current crop of Republicans, but by way too many Democrats.

    Parent
    What I can't understand are the low (none / 0) (#102)
    by rennies on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 08:04:20 PM EST
    ratings for this pot from this list.

    Parent
    Someone REALLY said that? (none / 0) (#1)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:23:24 PM EST
    I think they are probably just speaking out of line, and inarticulately at that (is the government REALLY just going to let the economy do its thing?) but if the attitude is "business will save us!" in some pocket of the WH I am very confused indeed.

    Think of the stampede that a rumor causes (none / 0) (#52)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:19:22 PM EST
    And, how it then becomes our very own ink blot test. While everything is so emotional, what do we think of Senator Feingold's alleged attempt <per TPM> to highlight his "conservative" financial credentials? (Is nothing "pure?")

    Parent
    and the Great Debate continues ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by seabos84 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:45:05 PM EST
    Camp 1.
    because the little people don't see how hard the nobler selflesser gooder Dems work for the little people, cuz the little people listen to fox instead of Tomes of Truth, cuz the little people don't know how hard it is to do anything against those mean meanies who lie to steal,

    then the noblerer selflesser gooder Dems might lose!

    OR, on a different side,

    Camp 2.
    political pathetics, sell outs and those who are a mix get the kind of 'support' they've earned.

    Given that I've been firmly in Camp 2 since 2003, and I would have been more than loosely in Camp 2 in the prior decades if I hadn't been a little pre-occupied with career stuff (making sure I was NEVER on freaking welfare again, for example) - I certainly framed the two camps in ways amenable to my reality. yawn.

    rmm.

    the more I consider the Dem brand ... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by seabos84 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:50:35 PM EST
    any of you old enough to remember Proposition 13 outta California in '78? It was THE Daddy anti-tax initiative, and the Dims still haven't figured out how to counter the selfish lies which fueled that initiative 32 years ago - other than whining that mean meanies are mean, and vote the lesser of two evils. That really stopped Raygun!

    Any of you remember dukakis' CRAP campaign. I was a 10 buck an hour cook in Boston, and I was appalled at how inept they were.

    Remember when Clinton was elected and we had the HOPE schtick ?? The NAFTA & Glass Steagal recall stuff I'm pretty vague on, I was sooooo busy getting my math degree & then working the dot.bomb boom. I do remember constantly thinking that we were STILL missing out on burying Prop 13 & Raygun once in for all.

    Remember Gore's appalling campaign? HOW did he lose to that spoiled frat boy? Thug perfidy, or, DEM incompetence? I'll take door #2.

    The Dem brand & Obama --- Obama is just continuing the incompetence, at best, and at worst the sell outs, which have been part of the Dem brand for a long time.

    Obama is just another nail in the coffin of losers from the Democratic factions of losers & incompetents - HOPE fully he's the end of the line for these factions?

    rmm.

    Parent

    When the message comes from the top (none / 0) (#6)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:46:37 PM EST
    it is hard to beat the underlings.

    This from last week.

    "At Least It's Not at 12, 13 or 15 Percent"
    -Barack Obama

    At least not yet (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:36:52 PM EST
    Remember this?

    March 26 (Bloomberg) -- AT&T Inc. will book $1 billion in first-quarter costs related to the health-care law signed this week by President Barack Obama, the most of any U.S. company so far.

    A change in the tax treatment of Medicare subsidies triggered the non-cash expense, and the company will consider changes to the benefits it offers current and retired workers, Dallas-based AT&T said today in a regulatory filing.

    AT&T, the biggest U.S. phone company, joins Caterpillar Inc., AK Steel Holding Corp. and 3M Co. in recording non-cash expenses against earnings as a result of the law. Health-care costs may shave as much as $14 billion from U.S. corporate profits, according to an estimate by benefits consulting firm Towers Watson. AT&T employed about 281,000 people as of the end of January.

    Your phone bill will be going up and Caterpillar, AK Steel, etc., will be raising their prices. This will make them less competitive in the export market and impact any one else who does business with them. Although not announced it will do the same thing to Verizon, Alcatel and all other employers.

    Link

    This means loss of business and loss of jobs.

    Parent

    Apparently it is the (none / 0) (#7)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:48:47 PM EST
    politicos advising Obama -- Axelrod and Emanuel -- who are telling him to get tough, or look like he's serious about, cutting the deficit.

    While, for a change, the good guys, the ones who favor deficit spending are the economists -- Geitner, Summers, Volcker and one or two similar others.

    Where did you hear that Geithner and (none / 0) (#12)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:56:09 PM EST
    Summers were encouraging more spending and less deficit hawk bs?

    I have heard only about "rogue" Treasury people and Bernanke suggesting that government can't let up on spending right now.

    And by "rogue" I mean people who are supposedly taking a position that is contrary to what the White House position is.

    Parent

    See this (none / 0) (#20)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:09:31 PM EST
    NYT article from a few days ago.  And Axelrod's position is more nuanced

    Those pressing for more stimulus measures include Christina Romer, the chairwoman of the Council of Economic Advisers; Jared Bernstein, economic adviser to Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.; and the Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner, who took that message internationally to the Group of 20 summit meeting of developed nations last weekend in Canada. Lawrence H. Summers, who as director of the National Economic Council tries to broker what he calls the "brakes-versus-accelerator" debates, nonetheless makes the economic arguments for an additional stimulus, officials say.

    More focused on deficits -- or at least on positioning Mr. Obama to show his concern -- are his chief strategist, David Axelrod, other political advisers and Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, according to Democrats. Their lone supporter among the top economic aides is Peter R. Orszag, the budget director, who will leave the administration this month.



    Parent
    this administration will once again sacrifice good (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by kempis on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:28:23 PM EST
    policy to their fear of Republicans saying mean things about them.

    And as always, the GOP will continue to say mean things about them and the crappy policy will add to the "small people's" growing dissatisfaction.

    Axelrod and Obama don't seem to understand that good policy = good politics. These are the most scaredy-cat politicians I've ever seen.....

    Parent

    They were telling Europe this crap :) (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:53:58 PM EST
    Do as I say, not as I do because if you guys experience correction the U.S. stock market will too.  That damned EU, talk about herding cats and them not agreeing to hide all that insolvency :)

    And how do we "stimulate" and spend short term in the U.S.?  Well, the Fed buys 16 billion dollars of junk bonds that we know of so far.

    This is of course a drop in the bucket and should be a huge story, but most people don't understand what is going on and what money they using to do it with.  The FED is buying junk stuff daily trying to "stabilize" the "markets" and they still can't keep the market UP.  They are willing to kill people to "stablize" the "markets", make no mistake.

    Don't ask for your Social Security you have paid in though.  They are using that money for this, and it is literally disappearing into thin air and they can't stop that.  Treasuries are still worth something, but treasury IOUs in Social Security aren't worth anything.

    Parent

    What???? (none / 0) (#54)
    by BTAL on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:24:01 PM EST
    Don't ask for your Social Security you have paid in though.  They are using that money for this, and it is literally disappearing into thin air and they can't stop that.  Treasuries are still worth something, but treasury IOUs in Social Security aren't worth anything.

    It IS total B.S. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 28, 2010 at 10:17:10 AM EST

    and those same IOUs are also U.S. bonds and treasury notes but magically those aren't worthless. Because if those were we would be totally fecked and every existing investor in almost anything and everything with us.  So until treasury notes and bonds are worthless, the IOUs to Social Security cannot be worthless.  It is impossible.



    Parent
    extreme sarcasm n/t (none / 0) (#62)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:43:47 PM EST
    Conservatives never understand me (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:56:34 PM EST
    As Patton said (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:05:49 PM EST
    It is not important that they know. It is only important that I know.

    One of my favs

    ;-)

    Parent

    The only people who think (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:52:53 PM EST
    that this is all about "government" is Wall Street.  I suppose I could have predicted this insanity when I take a look at who is running the White House economic policy.  It doesn't make it any less shocking though for me at the moment because it is completely insane...flat out lets get ourselves completely into the third Great Depression insane as quickly and as completely as we can insane!

    Who, besides Bill Clinton, decided (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 12:57:29 PM EST
    the WH's stance on economic issues during Clinton's presidency?

    Parent
    He listened to certain advisors (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:11:56 PM EST
    The same ones that Obama is listening to.  It wasn't so long ago that he came out and said that Larry Summers and Robert Rubin were WRONG about economic policy under him, but only now does he see that.

    The Rubinites are Obama's advisors.

    Parent

    Well, not quite -- (none / 0) (#24)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:25:18 PM EST
    Clinton said recently that Rubin, Summers et al gave him bad advice only on the derivatives issue, not the overall economic approach.

    And see my cite above to the recent NYT article -- the Larry Summers (and Geitner and a few others) of today advising Obama is now a deficit spending advocate.

    Parent

    You don't see how their theories (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:32:38 PM EST
    surrounding derrivatives has leapt into the entire market now....every market, and we suffer from mass insolvency now?  I see it.  Everything they wanted Clinton to do and he was hesitant about they GOT Bush to do.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:38:33 PM EST
    I thought that Obama was arguing against deficit cutting during the G20 and telling the countries that except in extreme situations, like Greece, that the countries had to spend in order to come out of the financial crisis. They did not appear to listen to him.

    Parent
    He isn't even taking his own advice (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:59:20 PM EST
    Why should they :)  I think his idea of stimulus is also where you work to hide the insolvency.....not create jobs.  One man's "stimulus" is another woman's lawlessness

    Parent
    Clinton policies (none / 0) (#58)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:31:50 PM EST
    carried out in a different context -- one in which it was assumed that government was enforcing the regulations on the books with the aim of protecting the integrity of the markets.  

    Parent
    Bob Rubin and Larry Summers (none / 0) (#136)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Jul 08, 2010 at 12:02:26 PM EST
    One question to BTD? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Does this maybe explain Feingold's No vote on the finreg reform?  I was trying to find out what was going on with it last night.  Not much I could find but what I did find was pretty scary.  It is going to allow all sorts of creative bookkeeping that will hide all sorts of insolvency.  It will rewrite the rules of accounting and nothing good can come of it IMO.

    See some other interesting (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:26:09 PM EST
    things about Sen. Feingold's fiscal postures. (Per TPM today, the Senator has significant conservative support in that regard. The question becomes...well, it becomes what we want it to be. And, back to my usual refrain that noone in politics is pure or anywhere near being so...nor should we expect them to be.)

    Parent
    I remember some old style Republicans (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 11:55:00 PM EST
    (not that we have any of those anymore) who wouldn't vote for fairy dust accounting practices either and could plainly see how destructive that could be.  Now nobody cares if they are full of $h*t, only that they are getting their contributions.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    Hard to believe that anyone but a Republican who is 100% invested in seeing America tank under Democratic rule would say such a stupid and counter intuitive thing..

    Don't know Stephanopoulos, as I have no teevee, but if Krugman says he is believes him, well....  too hard for me to believe.

    It is just plain stupid. The last ditch efforts of Sam's club, etc are not going to turn this thing around, imo.  Although, I see that move in response to the greedy banks who are not lending because they want to hold onto cash, presumably so they are top in line to buy failing banks..  greedy b@stards....

    Sounds like we here are part of the daisy chain (none / 0) (#57)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:27:57 PM EST
    You know, I heard someone say that he heard that some other person said that such & such was whispering about....

    Parent
    Unnamed Source (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    Aluminum tubes...  Anyway I do respect Krugman, and hopefully he is being more of an activist here than anything else...

    Parent
    Yes, he is a good advocate (none / 0) (#75)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:22:40 PM EST
    And on the other side of the equation (none / 0) (#22)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 01:12:34 PM EST
    The money from places like Wall Street is drying up.  As much as we all hate it, without money coming in (and possibly going to your opponent), who do you think is going to win those elections?

    Who will win? (none / 0) (#35)
    by sj on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    The bankers will win, silly.  The same folks who won the last election.  

    And anyway, I think ALL the money is going to my opponents.

    Parent

    Facebook ad sd., Obama crisis. (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:28:59 PM EST
    I read it as "Obama Cruise," and thought, oh boy, here we come. You can run but you can't hide.

    But that would be fun, no? (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:36:42 PM EST
    I mean, the National Review (Online) sponsors a cruise - can you imagine being trapped on a ship will all those people??  But an Obama cruise might be fun!

    Parent
    Only if... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:49:26 PM EST
    no one from the DEA is invited on board:)

    Parent
    I hate to break this to you (none / 0) (#46)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:55:23 PM EST
    But many of the cops I have known or met were some of the BIGGEST party animals. Now, I don't know if they partook of illegal substances, but they did like their booze and cigs.

    Parent
    I did know one who used to party (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:02:35 PM EST
    out of the evidence room :)  He did take the penitentuary cruise after awhile though.

    Parent
    No doubt.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:37:10 PM EST
    I was hanging with an officer of the law just this weekend for the 4th...old neighborhood friend, salt of the earth stand up guy, just took a wrong turn on the career path is all:)  

    He was the last one standing and proceeded to drive home...no talking sense into him with that get outta jail free card in his wallet.  But in his defense the guy can handle his booze like nobody's business...I could barely talk and he looks/talks/acts sober as a judge...he's a real wonder of the world this cat.

    Parent

    Do you express you views on (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 03:49:48 PM EST
    law enforcement, judges, prosecutors, and the prisons w/this guy?

    Parent
    Not too much... (none / 0) (#124)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 08:29:56 AM EST
    he knows I'm a partier and got no love for the po-po generally...a few chop-bustin' wisecracks back and forth is about it, we kinda abide by the rules of the pub when we hang...no religion, no politics.

    Parent
    Ha ha ha... (none / 0) (#48)
    by DancingOpossum on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 02:59:45 PM EST
    Yeah, they're going to start focusing on their jobs. Of course, for some of them it is probably too late for that, too.

    These are the most scaredy-cat politicians I've ever seen.....

    Once more, with feeling: They are not scared, and they are not incompetent. These policies are what they want. The Democratic Party wants what the Republican party wants. Any outward show of difference is simply a show put on to dupe the masses.

    They want what the Republicans want. They are rightwingers, they are neocons, they've bought into the whole corporatist mindset. They aren't even "good" Republicans, the kind the GOP won't tolerate anymore. Aside from a few lone, principled lefty holdouts like Kucinich--and we see how easily even he could be "encouraged" to support something they really want, like the Big Bamboozling Bailout for Health Insurance Companies.

    You're saying they couldn''t bring that level of pressure, treachery, blackmail, whatever it was, to pass truly liberal legislation? Sure they could. If they wanted to. They don't want to. Making excuses like "they're weak" or "they're scared" just perpetuates the denial.


    "Will the Obama administration (none / 0) (#70)
    by observed on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:06:12 PM EST
    damage the Democratic Party?"
    Is this a Monday NYTimes Xword question?
    Or is there a trick somewhere?

    I don't think the (none / 0) (#98)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 07:03:24 PM EST
    "unnamed source" in the white House was speaking about the economy exclusively. I think they're talking about backing off on everything for a while.

    The knock on Obama is that he's attacking too many things simultaneously and things are getting out of control. The source probably meant that "we've launched so many things that it's time now to step back and let these things gestate for a while and get the tweaks ready when some start getting wobbly.

    Just hope Obama teeing off isn't on too many covers.

    Or maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by goldberry on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 09:39:28 PM EST
    ...it means that someone inside the white house has decided that business has to step up to the plate and that the administration is not going to give the financials any mere money. In other words, maybe it means just what Keugman thinks it means: there is an attitude in the white house that thinks that business should start doing the heavy lifting without realizing that people who have lost their jobs or are about to do mot like to spend money they don't have.  
    Or maybe Obama is over his head because he's just a novice at a period of time when being a novice is a serious handicap. Just when we need him to lead and do something, he can't.
    Yeah, that's the interpretation I'm going for.

    Parent
    mmm hmmm (none / 0) (#122)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 01:25:41 AM EST
    the Obama Administration is a clear and imminent danger to the political fortunes of the Democratic Party in 2010 and 2012.

    karma baby

    Whose Karma? (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 01:58:35 AM EST
    Yours?

    Parent
    BTD's question was (none / 0) (#132)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 04:15:43 PM EST
    will Obama admin damage the Dem Party

    answer seems to be yes

    karma for bad policies & political malpractice

    & my karma too i suppose in that now we are all in for another round of the GOP in our faces, either in fact (w/seats won by the GOP in Congress & perhaps a GOP president in 2012) or in effect (in keeping with policies pushed up to now by the "bipartisan" Obama admin)

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 07, 2010 at 04:26:32 PM EST
    Using the Karmic model, I did not see how you yourself could be out of the equation.

    Personally, I think that is not such a useful metaphor in this case.

    Parent

    The Obama Administration is harmful to Democrats (none / 0) (#137)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Jul 08, 2010 at 12:04:39 PM EST
    only because they are Rockefeller Republicans.