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    To BTAL, et al. re Google home page: (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 09:02:51 PM EST
    It is incorrect.  Google flunks history today!

    The last open thread closed before I could reply re the comment that today is the anniversary of the 19th Amendment, according to Google.

    It is not.  It is August 26, annually declared Women's Equality Day by decree of the President in honor of the suffragists who fought and won the vote as a step toward equality in this country.

    I hope to celebrate actual equality in the Constitution for the majority of Americans someday with an anniversary of the ERA, if ever it gets a number instead of an acronym. . . .

    But for now, I'll settle for a Google doodle for the correct day on August 26, instead of that incorrect and insignificant little checkmark on the homepage today.

    Has that page ever been wrong before?  But my students tell me that anything they Google must be correct.  So I got to tell students in my women's history course, when they started to post comments based on Google's page today, that Google flunks history!  And that this is a good lesson to them to not count on the internet toobz but to, like, read the textbook for the final exam in a few days. . . .

    I guess this is where the confusion comes from (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 09:11:03 PM EST
    Wikipedia:

    On August 18, 1920, the Tennessee General Assembly, by a one-vote margin, became the thirty-sixth state legislature to ratify the proposed amendment, making it the Nineteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. On August 26, 1920, Secretary of State Bainbridge Colby certified the amendment's adoption.

    I say let's celebrate twice!

    Parent

    Aha, another example for my students (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 09:40:47 PM EST
    of why to not rely on Wikipedia (or other open-source, non-peer-reviewed references).  

    An amendment is not law until the Secretary of State says so, upon receiving and approving the last requisite ratification document.  And those documents can be in error; for example, the one from Illinois was rejected, or it would have been the first state to ratify, as it voted an hour sooner than the next state to ratify the same day (June 10, 1919, six days after passage by the Senate, the second time around, after the House had rejected it again in 1918 -- and a harrowing vote it was in 1919, won by only a handful of votes including a Senator sent by his wife on her deathbed; he returned home in time for her funeral).

    So the state that voted an hour later, on a document carefully drafted by women to be correct, won the honor of first official ratification: Wisconsin.

    And then the long, agonizing struggle began for the rest of the required ratifications -- down to the wire, yes, in Tennessee . . . where the antis waged a terribly devious and corrupt campaign.  So it won by only one vote, cast by a young new legislator, because he got a note from his mother that morning begging him to switch to support suffrage so that she could vote before she died.

    He was not re-elected nor allowed to run for office again, of course.  But he remains a real profile in courage and one of my favorite examples of why one vote actually can matter.

    Parent

    I remember that Tenn story now (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 09:51:47 PM EST
    I am woefully ignorant on the whole history of the amendment. You just told me more than I have ever learned in any history class. thanks!

    Parent
    You bet -- and it is far better told (none / 0) (#6)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:12:06 PM EST
    in the best source still: the classic Century of Struggle by Eleanor Flexner, in case there is time for some summer reading -- especially by August 26, Women's Equality Day.

    And that's just the end of the story.  By the time the reader gets to the end -- or what suffragists called the new beginning, because they finally could vote -- there can be nothing but awe for the many struggles of the real reformers in our history.

    By the way, the first time that I saw Hillary Rodham Clinton in person, almost 20 years ago, she referred to this aspect of the story, too -- and very movingly.  She is a real student of women's history and American history.  I found that interesting.

    Parent

    Thanks for the reference (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:48:47 AM EST
    Always time for more reading! I did watch the Hilary Swenk move referenced earlier and learned a lot from that to, assuming it was reasonably accurate. Amazing and frightening to contemplate what they had to go through.

    Not surprised HRC was well informed. I'll never catch up to where she was 20 yrs ago!

    Parent

    I have read alot about the era being (none / 0) (#47)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 03:02:30 PM EST
    a League President and all!.  Cream has pointed out the gaps in the truthfulness of the movie, i.e., the romance of Alice Paul for example.  There isn't a documented reference to the Senator and his wife either.  However, the rest is pretty much close to reality.  I have read that many of the Quaker women at that time may have actually been lesbians and therefore not involved in romantic liasions.  I just don't know. But it was an era of great progressiveness for women.  Sorry about today and the comercialization of women's bodies.  It is a shame.

    Parent
    And next week, the League (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 04:21:27 PM EST
    is celebrating the 90th with so many events -- on the correct day -- that I hardly can wait to see what's ahead for the centennial of the 19th Amendment.

    I well recall the 75th anniversary, soon after my first book was out, so I also was invited to be out and about a lot to talk with the ladies of the League.  So many, many great women -- many with whom I still am in touch.  And now there is a new generation inviting me for talks, often not even knowing that it will be a rerun.  But the story never gets old, does it?  (And I do keep doing new research, finding new aspects and sources, such fun.)

    Thanks! to you, one of the saints who has kept going the organization that goes back to its founding by Anthony and Cady Stanton . . . so I also wonder what is ahead for the League on the sesquicentennial, 150 years since it was founded under its previous guise.  And that will be followed the next year by the centennial of the amendment.  Such fun ahead as well!


    Parent

    The League is bleeding members. (none / 0) (#66)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:09:38 PM EST
    The young don't like the stiffness of their procedures, which I understand. However, when the League first started they had to prove to the men that they were a serious organization and understood Robert's Rules of Order. So they structured their organization to look congressional.  It has been effective until this younger generation (Alice Paul and Lucy Burns not included) who want quicker action and less checking with the members for the correct way to do all matters of things.  It has garnered a lot of respect for those methodical ways of doing things but it can be cumberson at times.  We showed the film last year at our local library to about 100 people and then again in February at the local high school.  Unfortunately only a few students showed up.  It was the middle aged women who came.

    Parent
    It gets funnier: Is Palin the source? (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:32:03 PM EST
    Or is it the New York Times, which cites Sarah Palin as the source, because she stated on her Facebook page today that it was the anniversary of the 19th Amendment.

    We know that the right likes to rewrite history, and so do the media, but this is just ridiculous.

    How is the New York Times going to handle the annual news release from the White House next week, when the President declares August 26 as Women's Equality Day yet again to honor the 19th Amendment?  Will the New York Times report that Obama must be wrong?

    It is enough to make a historian despair.  <head, desk, head, desk. . . .>

    Parent

    It is funny to think of her (none / 0) (#20)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:57:34 AM EST
    coming up with it on her own, but I bet she got it from someplace else, like an incomplete reading of the wiki entry. Or more likely a staffer's incomplete reading when preparing the Momma Grizzly Daily Brief.

    Either way, news orgs getting it from her is REALLY funny.

    Parent

    Yes, Google did state it was (none / 0) (#30)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:39:56 AM EST
    ratification of the 19th Amendment.

    Parent
    It was based on the TN side of the story (none / 0) (#25)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 08:34:46 AM EST
    and not intended to be anything more than a notice regarding woman's suffrage - a good thing.

    Guess we are all a bit smarter now, eh?  

    Parent

    To be clear, to reiterate (none / 0) (#33)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:40:27 AM EST
    It was stated on Google and widely elsewhere as the anniversary of the 19th Amendment.

    It was not.

    It was the anniversary of the last requisite ratification.

    That is not the same as an amendment becoming law.  Not until the Secretary of State receives and certifies the ratification . . . which was on August 26.

    Per the Library of Congress.  Beats Google or Wikipedia as a source on U.S. history, every time.

    Parent

    And this is important because (none / 0) (#35)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:44:37 AM EST
    students need to understand the importance of process, the agonizing steps to change.

    This is a generation that has not been taught deferred gratification.  This is a generation that has been taught by teevee shows that take only 22 minutes (minus commercials) and by teevee news soundbytes that change can come overnight.

    Heck, this is the generation that believed the current president could create change overnight.

    This generation, then, needs to learn from the reformers of the past that change is incremental -- and that to win it, every excruciating step must be anticipated.  Or, like reformers in past who failed, they will get snookered by those who know how to pervert the process and win, instead.

    See:  Dem primaries, 2008.

    Parent

    I understand and agree with your point (none / 0) (#37)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:57:39 AM EST
    especially in regards to the generational framework/mindset.  Have you ever watched/used the Dr. Massey "What You Are Is Where You Were When" videos?

    Again, my post wasn't intended to be a history lesson and BTW, I never use the Google homepage, so have no idea what it may or may not have displayed.

    Parent

    Ah, which was your source, then? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 12:22:53 PM EST
    The New York Times silly blog?  So appalling, so indicative, when even it does not check the record and relies on a Facebook page by a silly pol!  I'm curious just 'cause I'm fascinated by the spread of this erroneous factoid yesterday.

    Re the video, yes, I saw it sometime ago -- but thanks for the reminder, as I head to the library's online catalog to see if I can find it there to see again and see if it could be a component in an exercise I'm working on for a class this fall, one of those classes of frosh from many non-history fields who need to learn what they have to unlearn, if they are to learn how to do college-level work!


    Parent

    Initially it was from another forum (none / 0) (#44)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 12:53:13 PM EST
    (fairly right leaning political section but not a political based site) and was posted by one of the resident liberals.

    Did a quick check but nothing too deep, as again, wasn't trying to make an issue, just a nod to the fact that it is in effect and how long it had been around.

    I'll dutifully consider my knuckles whacked by the teacher.  ;)

    I'd love to have a copy of the Massey video.  The USAF used it in the mid to late 80s as part of leadership training.

    Parent

    Ah, that forum probably picked it up (none / 0) (#49)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 04:15:22 PM EST
    from Palin's Facebook page -- not that such a forum might want to admit to the same source as the New York Times.

    I did appreciate that your comment was a nice nod to history, btw, but just wanted you to know it was incorrect.  No knuckle-whacking for anyone who appreciates history at all, as do so many here (part of what makes this blog group so rich and rewarding).

    I'll try to remember to let you know if I find out that the Massey video(s), turns out it's a series now, are available somewhere accessible -- I did find them for sale, and not cheap.

    Parent

    Thank you, I'll stop grimacing waiting for the (none / 0) (#53)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 05:16:00 PM EST
    ruler whack.  ;)

    I've also found the entire Massey series, yes $$$s.

    It was one of the most interesting and profound presentations I've ever seen, especially when one steps back and looks at people's actions/reactions to situations.  An intriguing framework.

    Parent

    that was all very informative (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:59:38 AM EST
    thanks

    Parent
    Rent the DVD Movie (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by hairspray on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 09:24:57 PM EST
    "Iron Jawed Angels" with Hilary SWank, Angelica Huston, and Patric Dempsey. The made for TV movie was pretty accurate and well done. Celebrate Women/s Equality with that movie.

    It is very good, isn't it? (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:14:26 PM EST
    Well, except for the weird usage of some of the modern music.  But the scenes in the prison of the torture of the suffragists is stunning -- and authentic, according to experts on that aspect.

    Interestingly, that prison is still in use, but as a site for artists' studios.  (I know one of them.)

    Parent

    Music credits: (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 12:29:31 AM EST
    Ah, that's it: Fumbling Towards Ecstasy (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:49:24 AM EST
    by Sarah McLachlan was the worst one, the one that made me laugh -- not the reaction that the director ought to have provoked at that point in the flick.

    It was in Alice Paul's bathtub scene.  Yeh, that's just the song for a Quaker woman in the tub.  It apparently was to suggest that she was, um, pleasuring herself.  Yeh, right.

    That sexual story line with the reporter, was it?, was the aspect of the flick that was most gratuitous, superfluous, and inauthentic.  Too bad.  So I always have to warn students about the inauthentic aspects -- and, of course, send them instead to the library, to the book shelves, for the primary sources penned by the suffragists themselves, the women who endured torture at the hands of our president and federal government . . . because they only wanted to vote.

    Parent

    Very good film... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:07:29 AM EST
    and the prison force feeding scenes were particularly gut-wrenching...seeing that dramatic portrayal was the nail in the coffin for me that force feeding is torture and a gross human rights violation...that Uncle Sam still practices btw.

    Parent
    Does anyone here know how (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:20:31 PM EST
    to contact Linda Ronstadt?

    I'm fighting here what she's spoken out against in Arizona. I think a concert here would sell out, especially her songs of her father.e could get a lot of publicity for free.
    A little help? an email to her agent might suffice... never tried to book an act before, but Latino issue is political here and it doesn't matter if one is 'legal' or 'illegal' for actions aimed against Latinos to happen. Any help would also be appreciated.

    GIYF (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:26:54 PM EST
    Try this here site.  (Is that 'Bama enuf?)

    Parent
    Right hospitble oyou... (none / 0) (#10)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:30:04 PM EST
    I only hope I can he'p you out like you did me. As they say in Nuu Yawk, "I owe you a solid."

    Parent
    born in Nu Yawk, (none / 0) (#12)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 10:38:09 PM EST
    but now in 'burbs of Fluffya (that city in southeastern Pennsylvania).

    Parent
    No Regrets (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 11:28:34 PM EST
    Without all the editorializing Obama's two statements are much clearer, imo. From my point of view he is emphasizing the fact that there is a constitutional idea involved, rather than "walking back" an idea.

    Link (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 11:30:19 PM EST
    I do like it better after seeing the whole (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:04:36 AM EST
    second statement, instead of the sound bite on its own. I should have looked for that from the beginning. But I still think saying you are not commenting on the wisdom implies disapproval. Better to say nothing at all about the wisdom of it and stick to the rights argument.

    If you told me flat out you were not going to comment on my new haircut I'd be pretty sure you hated it.

    Parent

    NYC Sufi Community Center (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 11:36:19 PM EST
    Great informative NYT Op-Ed by William Dalyrmple

    Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America's leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn't be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or "zikr") and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

    For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam -- accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers -- and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.



    Utter nonsense (2.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:50:43 AM EST
    What this is....is an attempt to stick a finger in our collective eye.

    If he wants to fight the Muslim radicals, which I doubt, he he can build his mosque in New Jersey and get lots of morale support from us infidels.

    That he does tells us exactly what and who he is.

    Parent

    gesh... That he does NOT tells us... (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:51:20 AM EST
    Collective Eye? (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 01:29:42 PM EST
    What are you doing now co-opting marxism?

    Your self serving "collective" eye is nothing but a lynch mob composed of bigots and racists.

    And it is interesting to note that your recently peeked interest about our fair city, is a relatively new phenomena. You used to boast that it would be no loss to America if NYC were hit by a bomb and destroyed...

    Parent

    that sucks (none / 0) (#18)
    by efm on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 02:18:47 AM EST
    I'm sure racist people watch all sorts of TV shows, however, I don't think that it makes Fox racist because of it.  Fox does criticize the administration more than other networks, but that is because fox is a right leaning news organization and just about all of the rest of them are left leaning.  Racist people will criticize Obama solely because of race, and they'll probably watch shows that criticize him because of idealogical reasons, does that make the people on those shows racist as well?  Personally I don't believe that it does.


    Which ones? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:06:32 AM EST
    Which TV news outlets are left-leaning? Because I would love to watch them. Let me know when they run that five-part series on "Ending the American Empire" or "Why Socialized Medicine is Good for You" and please let me know what time the "Guaranteed Income!" game show airs. I'm all abuzz.

    Parent
    How do you know he was 85 years old? (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:54:23 AM EST
    Did he tell you?

    Sounds to me like he is the flip side of the "New Black Panther Party."

    As far as I know (none / 0) (#28)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:20:13 AM EST
    the flooding in Pakistan is at least as great a disaster as the horror that befell Haiti.

    Yet the President has set up no committees - made no public appeals - past Presidents are mute - it is not on the front pages anywhere. Yet hundreds of thousands - many of them children - are dying.

    My question is, in the vernacular of the streets: wtf?

    And I would also be interested if we have curtailed our predator drone bombing program at least for the moment.

    In fairness (none / 0) (#29)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:28:01 AM EST
    I should add that the US government has reportedly "provided food, shelter, medical supplies and other life sustaining items to help people in the flood-affected area and has pledged to provide approximately $76 million in assistance."

    This is about 25 million less than was initially pledged to Haiti - but it is something.

    But Obama was out front and center about Haiti.
    He brought in Bush (ick) and Clinton.
    A whole lot of publicity and appeals.

    But with Pakistan --- not much.
    I can only guess it has something to do with the fact that we are actively involved in bombing the place or something.

    It is puzzling to me.

    Parent

    Honestly (none / 0) (#31)
    by CST on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:33:26 AM EST
    I see it as more of the fact that Haiti is our neighbor and there are about twice as many Haitians in the U.S as Pakistanis.

    It's also a lot easier/faster to get certain types of aid to Haiti.  Pakistan is much further away, I think it's not on the forefront of people's minds.

    And yes, the fact that not only are we actively bombing them but frankly, a lot of them are actively bombing us.  So there will probably be some amount of hesitation in handing over money.

    Personally, I think now is the time we should be handing out money.  If they see us as a force for good in a time of crisis it could go a long way.

    Ironically the admin agrees with me.  I guess they just think they can do it for less.

    Also from the article, just as an fyi for anyone who's interested, similar to the Haiti event:

    "Americans can donate $10 by texting the word "SWAT" to 50555, with the donations going to a United Nations organization that is providing tents and emergency aid to displaced families."

    I really don't like the fact that they chose the word "SWAT" - feels like we're going in to bomb them.

    Parent

    Even though the SWAT area (none / 0) (#40)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 11:42:32 AM EST
    is the hardest hit (my understanding), really bad choice for a text direction. Talk about tin ears . . .

    Parent
    They had an article today (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 12:18:27 PM EST
    In the WaPo Express (can't seem to find it now) that said part of the problem is that a) global donors are "disastered out", and b) it's a much more compelling picture, and much easier to get people to react to people being pulled out of rubble than to watch for days as people see water get higher and higher.

    Parent
    I saw a headline recently stating (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 04:31:02 PM EST
    Bill Clinton is out campaigning in the U.S. for the Dems, including Obama.

    But--I agree w/you.  Especially since we are "droning" Pakistan.

    Parent

    To paraphrase carefully chosen words of a (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:38:10 AM EST
    'scholar' on NPR last night....people are confused about the geopolitical status of Pakistan at the moment.

    Parent
    Agree - imo Pakistan is not US friend (none / 0) (#34)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:42:43 AM EST
    and most Pakistanians living and earning their living in this country actually dislike America and all it stands for.  The sooner we wake up to that thought the better off we will be, imo.

    Parent
    Whether (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:03:18 PM EST
    or not Pakistanis living in this country or anywhere else like or dislike us has no bearing on whether or not we should be trying to save the lives of children who are dying in Pakistan. Imho.

    Parent
    How do you suggest we do that? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:16:25 PM EST
    and sadly (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 12:34:36 PM EST
    if we do send billions to help them its likely the people who get the help will never know where it came from

    Parent
    Sadly, yes, our funds will never (none / 0) (#45)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 01:20:01 PM EST
    reach them.

    Did admire HRC for asking some tough questions from Pakistan!

    Parent

    Is that even the point? (none / 0) (#48)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 04:02:54 PM EST
    Is the goal saving the lives of innocent children, or making a propaganda statement?

    I think your answer would be the latter.
    It explains why we have done so little.
    There's no payback publicity-wise.

    What an un-Christian Christian country we are.

    A truly Christian country would want to help and wouldn't care if the beneficiaries didn't know where the help was coming from.

    But our goal is, apparently, not to help people.

    Parent

    thats what you think huh (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:10:43 PM EST
    well, thats what I like to call "wrong".

    but thanks for calling me unchristian.  
    thats a compliment in my book


    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#63)
    by lentinel on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:56:57 PM EST
    didn't mean to even infer that you are un-Christian, Captain H. - whether you would consider that a compliment or an insult.

    I was simply saying that what I believe you said, that the people getting help from us would not know that it was us that sent it, was in fact perhaps the reason we aren't trying to do more.

    My use of the term un-Christian was aimed at the ongoing sanctimonious hypocrisy of the self-described Christians who run our government.

    And to those who say that the money wouldn't reach the victims because the government is so corrupt - or so impotent - I hope that you will all join what I hope is a swelling chorus to disassociate ourselves from this horrible fiasco - this so-called war in Afghanistan.

    Parent

    Politics of Relief (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:06:28 PM EST
    In a country of 170 million people where anti-American sentiment burns brightly, the United States is taking the opportunity to win some friends after Pakistan's worst natural disaster on record.

    While the ultimate impact on Pakistani public opinion is unknown, the US has earned rare and almost universal praise here for acting quickly to speed aid to those hit hardest.

    By Wednesday more than 2700 people had been picked up by six US choppers that have also delivered bags of flour and biscuits to stranded residents of the flood-ravaged Swat Valley, in the country's north-west.

    ''The American assistance has been considerable, it has been prompt and it has been effective,'' said Tanvir Ahmad Khan, a former Pakistani foreign secretary and now chairman of the Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad.

    ''The sheer visibility of American personnel and helicopters working in the field gives a feeling of very welcome assistance from the United States.''

    Most analysts say that feeling is unlikely to translate into any immediate improvement in Pakistani attitudes to the US.

    Still, the floods have presented US policymakers with an unusual chance to generate goodwill while providing a much-needed humanitarian service.

    The US is not the only player here seeing an opportunity to enhance its image. Islamic charities - some with links to banned militant organisations - have also moved quickly to plug the gap left by the Pakistani government's inability to meet survivors' needs.

    The Pakistani Taliban, too, have said that they will help victims - on the condition that the Pakistani government stop accepting help from the US.

    Link via Juan Cole

    Parent

    Great link (none / 0) (#69)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:23:51 PM EST
    Now, could you give an answer to #61?

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:27:24 PM EST
    Act locally, think globally.

    As for international disaster relief, we are all one.

    Parent

    Then how can America's homeless (none / 0) (#71)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:32:54 PM EST
    become an international disaster so they can get relief as well?

    Parent
    Disaster Relief Is A Different Problem (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:41:39 PM EST
    Than longterm solutions of US homelessness.

    Different needs. Not comparable, imo.

    Disaster victims needs are immediate, and homogeneous. Homeless different kettle of fish.

    Parent

    They are homeless as well (none / 0) (#73)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:55:00 PM EST
    even if you choose to label them a different kettle of fish - so what can be done for them is my question which never seems to get answered!

    Parent
    Then Stop Asking (none / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 09:19:34 PM EST
    And do something.

    Parent
    What your missing is that our monies (none / 0) (#55)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:19:49 PM EST
    don't ever reach the poor and needy - they are taken directly for the insurgents campaign of war and terror.

    Right - if it did get to the people in need - wonderful, but to continue to support this group of militants in power in Pakistan is ridiculous.

    Also China has had a terrible mudslide, whereby the same number of people are dead and homeless.

    Nothing is said about that!

    Parent

    What is the basis for your statement most (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 04:31:53 PM EST
    Pakistanis living and working in U.S. hate us?

    Parent
    From my personal experience (none / 0) (#56)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:22:19 PM EST
    of working with them.  Indian people are much different and actually do like America I have found from working closely with them as well.

    Seems typical for the US to always be supporting either the wrong leader or the wrong country!

    Just my opinion.

    Parent

    Most Pakastanis?? (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:30:21 PM EST
    Well I guess we Americans are so ethnocentric that we believe that most Pakastanis have a strong opinion of us.

    My guess is that most Pakastanis have never heard of the US. 30million middle class, 17 million upper class, leaves 123 million lower class poor. My guess is most of them are too busy working and dealing with problems of survival.  IOW not a lot of couches, computers or idle time in that part of the world for most people to opine on our lifestyle, ways or beliefs.

    Parent

    We were speaking of those making their (none / 0) (#58)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:35:08 PM EST
    living in America.  (Just reread the post.)

    And, I should have said, most of the Pakistanians that I came in contact . . .

    Parent

    Got It (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:47:17 PM EST
    And, I agree, better to speak about the Pakistanis you have met. There are 286,302 Pakistanis and up to 700,000 people of Pakastani heritage in this country.

    Quite a broad brush, to say that most of them hate the US, imo...

    Parent

    Sorry, didn't say hate - said dislike (none / 0) (#60)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:50:20 PM EST
    and to me there is a difference.

    Parent
    Dislike America (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:56:33 PM EST
    and all it stands for.

    You forgot about that part...  strong stuff, imo.

    But I am sure you meant it more like someone just disliking eggplant.. or swimming in the ocean.

    Parent

    No, nothing to do with eggplant (none / 0) (#68)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:20:39 PM EST
    my thought would be 'westernization'.

    Parent
    its a very serious problem (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:58:38 AM EST
    anyone who thinks that the hate speech we live with every day now will not lead to acting out are dreaming.

    its just a matter of time and opportunity.


    But lost in all of this are America's (none / 0) (#61)
    by Untold Story on Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:55:01 PM EST
    own homeless - where does billions and millions dollars come from for these people.

    Many have drug addictions or have mental illness.

    Each Sunday morning I take boxes of fruit down to them (under a bridge).  (Used to take one box but found there seem to be a couple 'taking control' -consequently I divide it among five or six smaller boxes and leave them in different places.

    It is such a heartache to see these people - so hot in the summer, so cold in the winter - and I always wonder 'why?'  Why can't they be taken care of in some manner other than being left to live their lives under a bridge in the richest country in the world?