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Sunday Morning Open Thread

Got caught by the weather yesterday. Traveling today, though on a delayed basis. Still busy too.

Open Thread.

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    Creative idea (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 11:46:29 AM EST
    for what to do with all the junk mail credit cards apps - and especially the included self-addressed stamped envelopes - those big banks who crashed the economy keep sending you, while sticking the banks with the bill.

    Home grown activism for those who can't make it to the Occupy protests.

    I've been doing that for years now. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by desertswine on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:23:00 PM EST
    Sometimes I write notes and sometimes I fill the envelopes with other junk mail that I happen to get that day. I've never yet put wood in the envelope tho.

    Parent
    Heh. It would be (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:26:31 PM EST
    kind of nice to see twenty or thirty million people send them invoices for processing/handling charges in their own envelopes, wouldn't it?

    Parent
    Yes, I could use some good company. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by desertswine on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:45:12 PM EST
    An example (none / 0) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 05:45:30 PM EST
    Of magical thinking.    

    Parent
    Thanks for the link (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by cal1942 on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    Nicely presented.  

    A practice I'll include in my daily routine.

    Parent

    This does nothing but impact the peon (none / 0) (#58)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 08:45:19 AM EST
    who scans and opens these for the corporation to which its mailed.  Probably some outsourced company outside of America.

    You're creating headaches for the 99%er you are purportedly looking to help.

    Parent

    You don't know many mail clerks, do you? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:07:28 AM EST
    Here's the deal: for a mail clerk it all pays the same.  That's the way it is when you are a "peon." They get mail, they open it, they sort it, they deliver it.  And that's true even if they outsourced it.  (Outsource incoming mail?  Really?  I suppose it could happen.  They sure are slow to respond).

    It doesn't matter what's in it to the mail clerk -- which apparently you like to refer to as a "peon".  

    Cumulatively it may start to matter to Corporate.  Although they would doubtless like to punish the post office for the additional costs, they've already mandated that the Post Office be self supporting.  

    Now that I think on it, this is actually supportive of the Post Office.  And helps them to be self-supporting.

    Parent

    I've worked in a mailroom... (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:24:54 AM EST
    I would totally enjoy opening such protest mailings...anything to break the monotony.

    Parent
    me, too (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    Yeah, what a burden it is for people (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:48:23 AM EST
    whose job it is to open the mail to have plenty of work to do - or do you suppose it is a bad thing to open stupid mail?

    And if the banks and credit card companies have to hire additional personnel to handle the onslaught of junk mail, I would put that in the category of helping the 99%, not hurting them.  

    If my firm was sending out mass mailings on a "cold call" kind of basis, and started getting back envelopes filled with their own mailing and other companies' junk mail on a postage-paid basis, you can be sure the Marketing department would be hearing out it pronto.  And that it would cease being a marketing tool going forward.  None of that would be the fault of the "peons" whose job it is to take delivery of and sort the mail that comes into the firm; in fact, they would likely be rewarded for bearing up well under an unexpected situation.

    On reflection, nothing about your comment that makes sense to me.


    Parent

    Rationalization (none / 0) (#71)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    it is a tool often employed by those w/the best of intentions, who are nonetheless, misguided.

    Fact is this is a silly idea and probably a waste of time.  What do you think is going to happen, the credit card companies will stop mailing out applications?  People won't fill them out?  Seriously?  I support the goals and ideals of OWS, but this idea reminds me of one those "if your friend jumps out the window are you going to follow him" things my parents warned me against when I was a kid.

    Yes, it does create more work for the person in the mailroom - who likely has a specialized job tailored to handling the applications that are supposed to be returned to the address on the SASE who now has to sort thru even more inappropriate crap mailed to him or her.  If you had some testimonials from a few people who actually handle these then maybe, but w/o, sorry it's a bit elitist to think that this is going to have any impact on anyone other than the peon, by which I mean low-man on the totem pole, who has enough crap to deal with in his day-to-day life.

    Parent

    Funny (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    you keep describing the mail clerks as peons and then accuse others of being elitist.

     

    Parent

    If it helps (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 04:01:05 PM EST
    I'm a peon myself.  It's not meant in a derogatory way, and shouldn't be assumed to be meant in that manner.

    Parent
    First of all, if you want people to (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 01:41:08 PM EST
    think that you are actually looking out for, and have respect for, the person whose job it is to sort, open and direct the mail that is received by any company, you might want to find a different label other than "peon."

    Second, if there's any rationalization going on here, it isn't on the part of those who see turning the banks' tactics back onto them as viable.  After the third of fourth time that I sent back - in the handy pre-paid envelopes - to the DLC, OFA, the DCCC and the DSCC, the entirety of their pleadings for money - albeit in confetti-form - minced no words on their disingenuous surveys about the likelihood of ever donating even one thin dime, and used neon bold marker to write TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING LIST, they actually did just that.  Did they do it because I asked them to, because I told them I wouldn't donate, because they didn't like my suggestions for how they could be responsive, or my ratings for their performance, or because I made them pay to get back all the crap they kept sending me?

    I have no survey to provide me with an answer to that, but common sense tells me that since it's clear they (1) have no interest in my actual opinion, and (2) really just want my money, that what got their attention was having to pay the postage, and not get any of what they wanted - a check.

    As far as I'm concerned, it worked.  And whether I am one person on one of thousands, all I know is they don't bother me anymore.  Which was the whole point.

    And seriously, that you keep thinking it is an imposition to expect someone to do his or her job, even if what's inside the envelopes isn't what the bank/credit card company wants to receive, is some kind of hilarious.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#74)
    by jbindc on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 01:36:35 PM EST
    Part of the problem is that, for many corporations, the mail room is not physically located in or near the corporation because is acutally is outsourced to a contracting company.

    I know several of my bills from several different companies get sent to Carol Stream, IL. I also know that isn't the corporate mailroom of Captial One, GMAC, Citibank, Chase, or Bank of America.

    My guess is, when junk is returned in those envelopes, they just get thrown away.  The corporation may see a line item on an invoice comparing "number of envelopes sent out" with "number of envelopes returned" vs. "actual responses", but my guess is, this method will have little, if any impact.

    Parent

    You seem to be missing the point that (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 05:51:53 PM EST
    these solicitations come with postage-paid envelopes, so the point of sending the junk back is to make the banks/companies pay to get it back.

    I'm pretty sure nothing's getting thrown out until someone looks at what's inside, so think of it as a mini-jobs program, one that comes at absolutely no cost to any of us.  It simply doesn't matter if the mail is opened in a corporate mailroom or in a warehouse in the middle of nowhere - some human has to process it.

    Now, maybe these companies have huge budgets for postage - I don't know.  And maybe they don't care, and won't respond by not cluttering up our mailboxes with their junk.

    So, what?  Sending the stuff back is one small way people can stop being so passively accepting.

    Parent

    So if you're right (none / 0) (#76)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 02:36:18 PM EST
    Then what's the harm?  And Post Office gets a teensy bit closer to fulfulling the mandate of being self-supporting.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#77)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 03:59:03 PM EST
    Mail is probably scanned or keyed into a system w/resulting contents delivered via electronic file to the core system responsible for processing.

    Parent
    Lotsa "probably"s and ... (none / 0) (#81)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 04:51:22 PM EST
    ... "my guess is" so I'm asking kdog: how did it work when you were in the mail room?

    I didn't work in one myself, but my son did, and I would visit/help him from time to time.  It was a really routine and boring job.

    But now that I read this comment, it really made me laugh.  Your whining "what if" sets up a scenario where a "peon" human being would have to be employed instead of just using a machine. I really, really like that.

    That poor, poor peon... who has job...

    C'mon, don't you think that's funny?

    Parent

    Wasn't a huge corporation... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 11:35:08 AM EST
    and this is the late 90's before scanning and computers really took off.

    If the envelope was tagged to someone's specific attention or a department (A/P, A/R, etc), I routed it there unopened.  If the envelope did not specify, I had to open them and route accordingly.  Since complaints and such were rarely tagged to a specific person/department, I got to open them and that was the highlight of a boring arse job...reading the nasty complaints, some of which were hysterical.

    Parent

    But what did you do w/complaints (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 11:50:44 AM EST
    after you read them and laughed?

    Parent
    Passed them on... (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 12:00:16 PM EST
    to the department they were complaining about...usually sales or shipping.  If they were complaining about a specific fellow peon* I liked, those letters might have gotten shredded "by mistake":)

    * "peon" as term of endearment

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 10:27:36 AM EST
    The 99% is some outsourced company outside of America?

    It's early, I know.... ;-)

    Parent

    It takes a Democrat... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 11:54:37 AM EST
    Can't wait for Halloween this year (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:09:07 PM EST
    It will probably be Josh's last for trick or treating, but Zoey and Naomi sort of know what is going on now.  Because their parents and their Uncle all swear allegiance to Auburn I got them Auburn cheerleader outfits and I spent hours making them huge pom poms the old fashioned giant pom pom way.  They will probably get really sick of carrying them early on, but they should be great for pictures.  And Josh's standard poodle Delilah has a costume that makes her look like the grim reaper is riding her.  Josh has an outfit that makes him look like an evil garden gnome.

    They said this morning that Halloween is practically recession proof.  You can spend a little money or a lot of money and it doesn't matter, everyone can participate and if you don't want to you just turn your porch lights off.

    I've had raccoons (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:29:46 PM EST
    coming in the window every night this week eating my cats food in the middle of the night. I keep waking up in the morning to find raccoon prints all over my desk near the open window.

    I'm hoping the numbers of people on the street for halloween will scare them into moving on to somewhere else...

    Parent

    Try this (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:51:45 PM EST
    1. Close the window.

    2. Put some cat food outside.

    You do want to pay your fair share, don't you?

    ;-)


    Parent

    No, no, you see... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    I am not allowed to close the window. The window's been open 24/7/365 for five years, ever since Magic showed up and moved in.

    I have no choice in the matter. It's a requirement of her allowing me to stay here, pay the rent, buy her food, and clean her litter box, you know? Part of the deal.  

    She also allows me to keep (has me hypnotized into) thinking it's all my idea. ;-)

    I just take orders and do as I'm told.

    Parent

    Ya gotta be a Democrat (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    I just take orders and do as I'm told.

    ;-)

    Parent

    I thought that was a Republican :) (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:30:53 PM EST
    Or "social liberal" ... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Yman on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:14:31 PM EST
    ... who just happens to vote Republican.  :)

    Parent
    I don't do (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:07:52 PM EST
    either party. You might have noticed some of my other comments here.

    Parent
    Okay but (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:18:28 PM EST
    You sure sound like one!

    Parent
    Even though I take orders (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:20:47 PM EST
    and do as I'm told, I'm definitely not Obama. Or Bush.

    Parent
    "In fact, attitudes toward authority (none / 0) (#51)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:55:15 PM EST
    and intellect are essential differences between political parties of the right and left and they help explain why most Americans believe the Republicans and Democrats could both use some time on the couch. Conservatism is by its nature concerned with preserving tradition, and with tradition comes a greater emphasis on obedience and hierarchy."

    In short, Jimbo, you are once again spouting nonsense.

    Parent

    Well, it is Natural that someone (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 08:56:42 AM EST
    who calls themselves Natural would Naturally snark someone's moniker and just as Naturally enter into a discussion about which they Naturally know nothing and make a claim they cannot prove.

    How so?

    Well, if you view the millions of conservatives that are trying to change what they consider the liberal establishment, Obamacare being only one example, it becomes clear that they are for change.

    It is just that, like the Left, they want change from things they don't like!

    What's next?? A claim that Liberals are smarter than Conservatives?

    Naturally!

    Parent

    change that goes backwards (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 02:04:47 PM EST
    isn't change, it's reversion.

    The only meaningful change is change that incorporates new information to adress and remedy a longstanding problem.

    Parent

    No Jondee (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 02:46:33 PM EST
    Change is change.

    If I want a change it is to my self interest.

    If you want a change it is to your self interest.

    But....

    Change is change.

    Parent

    well Jim (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 03:09:10 PM EST
    yours, imo, is small change..And a short-sighted, pipsqueak of a "self" that adamantly refuses to adress the reality of being a part of a larger system than itself.

    So, the "change" the Tea Party wants is, in effect, a change back to the stone age and the age of the robber barons.

    Backwards, which denotes a stark refusal to learn and incorporate any new information.

     

    Parent

    Magical Thinking (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:50:30 PM EST
    I realize that it's lefty anathema to criticize OWS in any way, but I am getting a bit of that "Magical Political Thinking" vibe from the supporters and a large swath of the left. Sort of that magical thinking that Obama was going to be the salvation.  

    Meanwhile, the Super Committee, the most undemocratic construct, is about to make some huge decisions.  

    OWS yes, woke people up from the slumber of isolation.  But, seriously, this is not about Utopian imaginary societies.  This is real hardcore politics.  Yes, the electoral process is flawed and will not be changed by those in power.  But, I don't see where we are going.  

    Occupying Oakland and making the inept, "activist, community organizer" mayor the focus of anger is so reminiscent of the past lefty mistakes.  Invent martyrs and monsters.  

    The other problem I have is that it's still about the middle class.  Yes, when your kids could not enter the system, you got pissed.  When for decades the system shut out millions of people, the poor etc, no one talked.  

    I needed to vent and this is not all.  

    Occupy Piedmont I say, the rich enclave in the middle of Oakland, don't strain a city that has barely the resources to exist.  

    As I see it, "magical thinking" is (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 08:53:42 AM EST
    something that requires nothing other than a brain, and - bonus! - you can do it anywhere - and you don't even have to get up off your butt to do it.  

    But the Occupy movement?  It has managed to actually get people off their butts, all over the country - even all over the world.   People are participating for various reasons, many of which derive from their own, first-hand,  experiences trying to make it in this economy.  

    It's about visibility, to a large degree.  About refusing to hide or be quiet.  It's about the realization,  I think, that wishing and hoping - the very definition of magical thinking - isn't going to make anything happen.  And realizing that becoming visible and vocal is, if nothing else, liberating, which in turn is empowering.  It's people who have been feeling powerless and hopeless regaining some of their autonomy and feeling less like victims who have no choice but to take whatever is being handed them.

    It's not an end, it's a beginning.  With no effort on the part of the establishment to hold many of their members accountable for what has transpired over the last however-many years, it's about making that establishment uncomfortable.  It's about exposing the hypocrisy of a government that claims to be about democracy and freedom and championing the rights of the world's people to speak out against forces of repression, but which resorts to violence as a tactic to repress not just the voices of its own people, but their very presence in public squares all over the country.

    It's about changing the dynamic, the one where those at the top get to do whatever they want to whomever they want, and the rest of us just accept it.

    Early on, the Occupy movement explained that they were not making demands because to do so was to reinforce the existing power dynamic, one in which the 99% can make demands, but all that is required of the 1% is to say "no."   Occupy doesn't have the power to force them to accede to any demands, but it does have the power of exposure.  It has the power of being present for a change, instead of obediently absent.

    Occupy is the people's "Mad as Hell" moment; I don't know where it's going, or whether or how it will change the system, but if it's changing the people, and the way the people respond to what is being imposed on them, how can that not be a good thing?


    Parent

    Stars all around (none / 0) (#8)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:53:51 PM EST
    The other part that bugs me, I am supposed to be again the sideline parent cheerleading and giving stars all around.  Screaming:  "Good job Tigercats".  Political change is not a carnival nor a stage of life.  It's lifelong commitment filled with more frustration than success.

    Yet the magical thinking mentality is up on a Disneyesque high to I don't know where.  

    Parent

    But change's type depends on evolution or (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:31:10 PM EST
    revolution. If the middle class actually begins to notice the bread and circuses, then there can be revolutionary change.

    I for one like the lack of leadership, and the lack of specific goals. If the city can't handle it, I don't feel much sympathy.

    If the city governments across the country hadn't pandered to the disgusting corporate takeover with such plans as "privatization of services and infrastructure," then the immense cash flow to the 1% would be stopped. Time to reap the whirlwind.

    Yep, I was saying the same thing 25-30 years ago at the beginning of this debacle. Now, I'm just gonna expat. When the understanding finally hit me that I mean nothing, on a federal, state, or local level, it was liberating, though.  Why fight from within, when it's akin to herding cats?

    Corporate governance, corporate military, and of course corporate corporations... All of them looking at some bizarre microeconomics-based model of supply, demand, and lack of equilibrium.

    A lot more to say, but I need to write it out first...

    How about a revolution from the bottom up, where the folks rebelling get to decide what they want or don't want?

    It's a conundrum. I still support the Occupy movements, because to my mind a corporate state creates more havoc than a headless state.

    Parent

    Hey Jeff! (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:56:27 PM EST
    The Magnolia Fall Classic starts Thursday in Tunica!

    Parent
    I think I'll be there for (none / 0) (#39)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    the satellites on Friday! If i win, I'll be there longer, lol!

    Thanks for the heads up, Jim, I'll give you a call later this week, ok?

    Parent

    Great! (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    I think (none / 0) (#15)
    by NYShooter on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:24:41 PM EST
     you may have misconstrued OWS's role, or goal, at least my take on it.

    As a group, they are very smart. They understand why they`re there. They also understand, totally, their limitations. I think they see their responsibility as forcing the Society to recognize the disease, which is a  21st. Century mutation of our Founder's vision.

    I believe they look at the movement like NASA looks at multi stage rockets; each section has a specific duty. OWS's duty is to force THE ISSUE, front and center, for however long it takes, until another group assumes the responsibility to take it "to the next level."

    "The Issue," I believe is the fundamental unfairness our society has been distorted into becoming. They`re going to stay there, making life unbearable for the 1% until a better organized, more pragmatic, yet ideologically pure, group takes over.

    I think they've done pretty good up to here. And, I believe they know they don't have whatever it is that's needed to begin transforming ideas into actions.


    Parent

    Smart. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:30:44 PM EST
    Well, forgive me  I remember being told the Wall Street Guys were smart, then the Obama team.  I sort of had it with smart people.  Who and what is doing anything about the Super Committee?   No one.  What they cut we will  not get back.  

    Yes, yes, I understand the unfairness.  But now as I see it from here in the Oakland events, it's devolved into the cops and the Mayor of Oakland being misidentified as "the Man".  I call that a de-evolution and distraction.  

    Magical thinking is that somehow there will be a organic synchronistic effective opposition that will take the power away that has been abdicated to the few.  

    Parent

    The right to peacably assemble... (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:21:30 PM EST
    ...and petition your government for a redress of grievances.  That, if nothing else, has been exposed as largely a sham.  You may assemble for a certain amount of time, you may protest when we say it is okay, and you must stop when we fabricate enough reasons to march into unarmed civilian protests in riot/war gear.

    The militarization of local police forces, post 9/11 especially, has been exposed as well.  And it is ugly. JP Morgan Chase gives almost five million dollars to the NYC police fund, and then, lo an behold, protesters are beaten like crazy on their way to Chase.  You don't find that a tad, um, disgusting?  

    Do you honestly believe cops should becoming in geared up for war when no one is firing shots at them, nobody has smashed windows and genuinely rioted.  Really?

    Truth is, none of us here really has any recipe for anything.  Yes, working within the system can be hard and a slog, and blah blah blah, but, you know what?  Different things also happen.  In different ways.  The idea that the ONLY way this country is going to change is through the recipe you or I find acceptable is kind of comical.  We sound like geezers.

     

    Parent

    Cripes (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:36:34 PM EST
    Of course it's disgusting.  But ask the low income neighborhoods that have been militarized zones for decades.  When did I say that it was acceptable?  The point is that I see a bogging down into the old standard issues.  Cops are brutal.  Seriously, is this news?  If anyone is surprised they have been living in a bubble.  

    I never said that I have the recipe, but right now the recipe is that "it will happen" .   While we spend a great deal of emotional and political energy angry at the cops.  Ok, done that been there.  Precisely because I am a geezer who saw this playbook before I see that we are going down the same dead end.  

    Parent

    Read up on "Occupy the Hood" (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Towanda on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 03:33:17 PM EST
    coast to coast.

    The movement has been very smart in this, I think.  Started out as not-so-scary middle-class sorts, reassuring to middle-class mentality media.

    This week, though, the OtH aspect bloomed with marches into poor neighborhoods to meet there with the OtH groups, many of whose organizers had made connections from the start but all bided their time.

    This sort of coalition across class lines took years and years to emerge in many movements in the '60s.  That it is emerging already in this movement is fascinating -- and encouraging.  No matter how many times mainstream media and others tell me that the movement has no demands (it does; they refuse to read and report them), is disorganized, yadda yadda -- I know what I see.

    Well, of course, that's because I don't count on looking only at mainstream media.  What are your sources, Stellaa?  Can we help to expand them?

    Parent

    Who is (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:46:25 PM EST
    "the other group" that will take responsibility?

    Parent
    Stellaa, this sounds like a conversation (none / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 09:30:52 AM EST
    I had about it with friends the other night. I do think OWS is worthwhile in what it is doing, but it should not be thought of as THE vehicle for change. I have one 75 yr old friend who is in most ways more liberal than me, and has been marching in every social movement for 50 years. She is caught up in the emotion and 'fun' (her term) of it, and I was just getting annoyed. I had to tell her to march those people down to the polls next November - if more had voted last November, we would still have Speaker Pelosi and be in a much better position now.

    She (and I am just using her as an example of this thinking) thinks we can march and occupy our way into an "enlightened socialist" economy. I don't think so. The 1% have the power and the money, and do not give a hoot about the marching. The politicians might give a hoot, but only if it threatens their jobs.  The local governments and police give a hoot, just because it is annoying to them to have disorder. So they will allow it only until they have had enough of what they think is chaos.

    I don't really have any answers...just annoyed with lack of truth and reality.

    Parent

    I don't know how your friend feels, but (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 10:07:13 AM EST
    I think a lot of those involved in the Occupy movement, and a lot of us who are with them in spirit, do not see marching ourselves to the polls as the answer to what's going on; it doesn't do much good, does it, to vote for candidates who have shown time and again that they are willing to sacrifice the interests of the majority for those of the monied minority?  I mean, there's the but-the-other-guys-are-worse argument, but that hasn't stopped the rightward movement by Dems, hasn't stopped them from participating and cooperating with the GOP's efforts  - that we're just getting where the GOP wants to go, but more slowly, just is not good enough.

    Are you aware of the growing push to move money out of the big banks, and the pressure that's being brought to bear on municipalities to do the same?  You can read about it here, and here.

    That's an effort that is getting a lot of energy from the Occupy movement, and reports are that it's making a number of these big banks nervous.  So, I would not be so quick to pooh-pooh OWS; in fact, I would argue that treating OWS like a pesky fly is exactly  how the establishment hopes more and more people will feel.

    IF OWS encourages more people to stop being manipulated into accepting the status quo, it has and will continue to be, a success.


    Parent

    I don't think any one thing alone (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 01:01:50 PM EST
    does much good.  I do support OWS and am so thankful to those that have made it happen.  It is a success - I don't view it as a pesky fly, and am sorry if I gave that impression. But ultimately it can't work all by itself.

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    every bon fire (none / 0) (#79)
    by NYShooter on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 04:11:48 PM EST
    starts with a light

    OWS is that light

    The fact that we're talking about it, and that the establishment is getting nervous proves that it's "working."

    Parent

    some things are simpy cute... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:13:32 PM EST
    Here's a recording of Tipitina from a Japanese piano recital. Look at how tiny the kid is!

    All decked out in tails no less. Excellent (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 03:25:58 PM EST
    sense of rhythm.  Super serious but gets his riffs in.  

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    Disappointing news, (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 03:14:37 PM EST
    for the bipartisan social safety net "unsustainables."   As with the Peterson crowd's sky is falling on social security, only to be thwarted by the Trustees Reports, so too, the new Medicare data must present a problem to be countered, and, time is of the essence, since the Super-duper Committee cuts in the program need to be rolled out by Thanksgiving.  

    Jonathan Blum, deputy administrator for Medicare said that they were seeing "much lower utilization and spending growth" than expected.  In May of this year, it was predicted that most beneficiaries would be paying premiums of $106.60/month in 2012. However, the rise next year will be much smaller ($99.90, an increase of $3.50).  Secretary Sebelius said that the increase in premiums was less than 4%  in four years. According to the Kaiser Foundation, average premiums paid by workers for employer-sponsored plans was well over 20% since 2008. About 5% of Medicare beneficiaries now pay higher higher premiums based on income--a sliding scale up to $319.70 per month.

    Any upbeat view of Medicare officials is in stark contrast to the grim picture prevailing in Washington where ways and means are being considered to rein in the growth of the program that they consider unsustainable, or, in need of privatization and "cost shifting".  

    Ezekiel Emanuel, former WH advisor, offers a little help to the Super-dupers  in his  Sunday NYT opinion piece (the first of a series we are warned), by noting that the US spends the most on health care per person, and wonders if it is worth it--if we spend more on heath care just to stay healthy, we will have less to spend on unnamed "other things."   And, he claims that we are spending more than other countries and do not see better results.  

    Emanuel refers to a few studies, most of which are based on study cohorts in the early 1990's, ignores questions such as what counts as health care spending, how the spending costs per person are calculated by the different countries, or, how much should a country spend on health.  The studies cited in 2003 or 2004 that suggest there was actually worse care in states with higher Medicare spending seem to be based on the Dartmouth Atlas, used in those operatic health care discussions, but since found to be--misused.  After all, the value of treatments, it seems to me,  should look to those who lived and not just those who died.  Wouldn't it be nice, if huge policy decisions would test premises from time to time?  

    What a coinkydink (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by smott on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 06:06:05 PM EST
    ABC and CBS livestreams for OWS go down simultaneously as Oakland cops move in with tear gas....

    http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-livestream-ended-how-i-got-off-my-computer-and-into-the-streets-at -occupy-oakland

    I watched that happen twice (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Towanda on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 09:01:21 PM EST
    that night, at least.  The timing was beyond coincidental.  I don't know that it was the police pulling a plug or something at all.  I began to wonder, instead, whether police were monitoring the livestreaming and waited for the chopper refueling or the like to unleash tear gas again.

    The timing was very strange, and it occurred more than once, and across several livestreams at once -- I also got that photo of the Capitol, etc.

    Parent

    Conspiracy (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 06:19:48 PM EST
    I've been sitting here (none / 0) (#54)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 12:01:59 AM EST
    with a "reply" window open.  I'm not typically lost for words.  I simultaneously have too many and none at all.  

    I'd like to say that if this were happening in another country it would be all over the airwaves, but that's not entirely true.  The Arab Spring was broadcast.  But Los Indignados I had to read about.  Apparently it's only news when it is "not us".

    Anyway, I don't think the crackdown is going to have the effect the authorities are hoping for.  It didn't work in Egypt.  Or Libya.

    Will it go unremarked that ABC and CBS cut the livestream at such a convenient time?  I think those two networks will go one of two ways.  They'll either ignore it completely or make pathetic excuses.  I think it's unlikely in the extreme that they will admit that they were asked to do so and they complied.  What the other networks do is anybody's guess.

    I don't think Occupy is going away.  I think the harder TPTB try, the more determined it will get.  But it's such an uphill battle.

    I'm so glad they haven't given in the pressure to produce their "demands".

    We are the 99%.  That's enough for right now.  That's enough.

    Parent

    Saw Blue Man Group costumed guy (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:37:19 PM EST
    On BART last night. Apparently he could read as he got up to check the map.

    On the media demands for demands from OWS (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:47:45 PM EST
    "You can make demands, but I've seen coalition after coalition marching and marching and making demands, yelling mostly, and then going home," said Janet Kobren, an experienced activist who left Occupy Wall Street's San Francisco outlet to join the New York hub.

    "Who are they talking to?" Kobren, 68, asked of protestors who habitually stand outside barricaded government offices asking for something specific. "I see them as kind of teenagers saying, 'I want, I want,' to their parents."

    Kobren reflected the purist Occupy Wall Street philosophy: that there's no point demanding change from the government or the financial industry when those institutions are rotten. "We need to do it (bring change)," she said.

    The other Demands Working Group member was also in no hurry.

    "The process is supposed to help us understand the variety of perspectives in the group and consider them," said James, an activist from Chicago, asking that his last name not be used.

    Mysteriously, James added: "The Demands Group could also have a discussion of what are 'demands'?... Part of demands has to be understanding what demands mean to the development of a democratic culture."

    [snip]

    But few in Occupy Wall Street see their failure to issue demands as a failure at all.

    The goal, explained Patrick Wilson, volunteering at the camp's media desk, goes far beyond what any single demand could articulate.

    "What we have in the United States is an oligarchy and what we need is a people's democracy.... So we're occupying this country. We start out at Wall Street, then we spread out and occupy the country and take it back," he said.

    "The only demand," he said, "is: give the country back to the people."

    -- Occupy Wall Street's demand? No demands

    The point being, of course, is that issuing "demands" to corrupt organizations and systems would be just playing into their hands - and giving away the power the Occupy movement has.

    Issuing demands would be begging psychopaths to play nice.

    There are 310 million Americans who, before Occupy, were acting like they were outnumbered by a few thousand wall streeters, media moguls, insurance company and weapons manufacturer execs and other assorted 'plutocrats', 100 senators, 435 congresspeople, and maybe a couple of hundred in the US Administration.

    No longer are they acting like they are outnumbered.

    Phuck make demands. Make those few thousand issue demands instead. And then reject them.

    Require total and complete surrender instead.



    They already know what we want (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:58:59 PM EST
    I am sick and phucking tired of them acting like they (which you can identify them because all they are doing right now is whining about us) don't get it.  The rich and the corporations don't pay their fair share.  There are no real Wall Street TBTF banking regulations and all they are doing with MY Fed money they get now for nothing is more gambling to make more money for themselves.

    And we refuse to die anymore so that corporations can show profits.  We want people and lives to be what living and making a living is about.

    I want the rich to have to experience moral hazard too.  Part of what is feeding the insanity is that moral hazard exists for me but not for thee.

    Parent

    Of course they know. (none / 0) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:05:16 PM EST
    It's a given that the electoral system has failed and will continue to fail.  I am having a hard time seeing what and how we will bypass this system to get the basic "reforms", or "changes" we want.  

    Yes, they don't need to have demands.  Yes, they don't have to have the answers.  Yes, they are doing the right thing, raising consciousness.  But then I am supposed to enter the "Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field" and see some magical change that will save us all.  

    Parent

    I don't understand what it is (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:54:03 PM EST
    you are saying.  Are you saying that you are very skeptical that this movement will accomplish anything without defined goals?

    Parent
    Every (2.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:50:39 PM EST
    "What we have in the United States is an oligarchy and what we need is a people's democracy....

    one of these I've seen wind up being run by a guy with a little red book and being called "Dear Leader."

    Pardon me will I say the people doing this are ill informed and bound to do more harm than good.

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:52:15 PM EST
    Agreed it's not about making demands.  Yes, the system is corrupt.  But how do you transition?   The only thing I see is a magical mystery that is supposed to happen, in the same way that change was going to come.  

    Surrender?  Seriously, in the same way the Koch brothers surrendered?  These people are not letting go no matter how much we click our heels and video tape our suffering.  

    Parent

    May 1968 (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:57:23 PM EST
    google it

    Parent
    Exactly. And look at how long (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Towanda on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 03:39:47 PM EST
    it took to get to that point.

    And how long it took after that point.

    Lordie, we allow the establishment to take more than a year of our time to have candidates campaign for office, a process repeated untold times now.

    Emerging movements take time to, um, emerge.

    The impatience in the mainstream media makes a modicum of sense, given their constraints.  But when others take up that gimme gimme call and demand of a movement that it behave differently, when they are not willing to get inside it and see what is going on . . . well, tough.  Go watch Dancing With the Stars or something to be distracted again, and complain about Nancy's nips.

    Parent

    Google what? (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:05:37 PM EST
    You're wasting my time (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:09:47 PM EST
    Oh great one (none / 0) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:11:55 PM EST
    Did not see the title.  I don't need to google it thank you much.  

    Parent
    Wondering how our TL friends in the eastern (none / 0) (#42)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 04:52:44 PM EST
    snowbound states are doing after all that snow. Anne? Zorba? Peter? Have you lost power? Are you totally snowed in?

    I was thinking about all of you. Hope you are all okay.

    In Baltimore city (none / 0) (#45)
    by sj on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 05:35:00 PM EST
    I know it snowed some because there were itty bitty traces of it this morning when I left home to walk my dog.  But the sun was shining and the wind wasn't blowing and it was a beautiful day to take her to the park and do the two mile walk around the reservoir.

    So that's what I did. :)

    Parent

    Two inches of icy snow fell Saturday (none / 0) (#50)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:36:29 PM EST
    Took down some limbs, but we did not suffer a power outage.  Daughter at college in central Massachusetts, on the other hand, was evacuated from campus (with all the other students) to homes in neighboring towns after 18 hrs w/o power or heat, a bigger storm predicted for Sunday afternoon, and no word as to when power can be restored.

    Parent
    It was a rain, sleet, snow event, with (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 06:50:53 AM EST
    no power outages for us - thank goodness! - and maybe about 2-3 inches of frozen stuff - snow sitting on top of slush.

    Spent some time shaking the stuff off things like rose bushes, rhododendrons, lilac bushes and mimosas, as one rose bush had a section just snap in half from the weight, and didn't want to lose more that way.

    Happened to be out running my usual Saturday errands when all of this was going on; driving not much of a problem until I was heading home, later in the afternoon, and things got slippery.

    The people who keep track of statistics tell me we had snow in October of 1997 and again in October, 2003, but I honestly don't remember that.  So used to seeing snow laying on bare tree branches, not red, orange, yellow, green leaves; it was weird, but weird in a pretty way.  Well, except for the damage.

    All in all, we dodged the worst of it, which often happens here in Maryland.  Still not ready for 27 degree Halloween Monday morning...

    Parent

    I can't believe the difference (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:11:10 AM EST
    in the weather between what you experience and what the city gets.

    I've experienced many an Autumn snow in Colorado.  Autumn snow is typically "wet snow" and very, very heavy.  Doubly dangerous for fauna that is often still in leaf, and for above-ground power cables.  You did exactly the right thing by shaking the snow off your shrubbery.

    Parent

    I was driving across NY and MA yesterday (none / 0) (#67)
    by CST on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:17:12 AM EST
    and thought the same thing about the trees and snow.  It was so beautiful.  Although I was happy that I didn't hit any of the storms.

    Parent
    David Flores new trial update (none / 0) (#43)
    by desmoinesdem on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 05:06:43 PM EST
    I don't understand why the man has to wait so long for his new day in court:

    oops--hit post too soon (none / 0) (#44)
    by desmoinesdem on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 05:07:32 PM EST
    Here is the excerpt from that story:

    A new trial date of May 7 was set Friday for David Flores by Polk County District Judge Douglas Staskal.

    "No further continuances will be granted except for the most compelling cause," the judge warned.

    Flores, 34, has been behind bars since age 19 for the shooting death of Phyllis Davis, which police believe was gang-related. He was awarded a new trial in December 2009 based on new evidence that points to the possibility of another key suspect in the crime. That decision was upheld this spring by the Iowa Court of Appeals.

    Flores was supposed to head to trial a second time this fall. But Staskal granted a delay, in part because Flores' new attorneys needed time to prepare and in part because a key prosecutor is taking a three-month leave in 2012 because of a planned sabbatical in Europe.



    Parent
    Lee Camp (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 08:25:56 PM EST
    A tune for the night owls. (none / 0) (#55)
    by caseyOR on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 02:12:19 AM EST
    An old favorite of mine from The Ozark Mountain Daredevils. If You Wanna Get to Heaven

    If you wanna get to heaven, you've gotta raise a little hell.


    A song for Occupy Wall St., Denver, Oakland, (none / 0) (#56)
    by caseyOR on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 02:49:19 AM EST
    Baltimore, Los Angeles, Portland, D.C and all across the country.

    Crosby, Stills and Nash's tune A Long Time Gone

    You've got to speak out against the madness

     link

    Parent
    conversation this weekend (none / 0) (#64)
    by CST on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 10:59:23 AM EST
    with someone in grad school for their MBA:

    them: when are you going to go to grad school?
    me: I dunno, when I need a master's degree for whatever I want to do.
    them: why don't you get an mba?
    me: what do I want an mba for?
    them: to work in finance and make a lot of money.
    me: ummm, that's not what I want to do with my life.
    them: what do you mean?

    The funniest part of all this is that later on this person told me they supported the occupy wallstreet protests.

    Thank god for Charles Pierce (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 04:11:55 PM EST
    He may save my sanity this election.

    Watch now as the pressure mounts on poor Romney to campaign out there in earnest, which is a small town in Calhoun County, I believe. Romney made the very logical decision to give Iowa a slide, build a firewall in New Hampshire -- which shouldn't count as much as it does, either, but that's another story for another day -- and then use that momentum to carry him along. If he's smart, he'll stand firm on that strategy even given these latest numbers. Of course, Mitt Romney couldn't stand firm on a metal plate in magnetized boots. He'll be petting the pig very soon, I'm betting.

    Read more:


    Herman Cain's rough day (none / 0) (#83)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 07:46:13 PM EST