Friday Late Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:46:52 AM EST
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< Friday Morning Open Thread | On Wisconsin! >

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Friday Late Morning Open Thread | 67 comments (67 topical)

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A.J. Dionne about Wisconsin (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:03:07 AM EST

here and linking to Ezra Klein on the situation.

Keep in mind that both misstate some points, as do posters in earlier threads, based on misstatements widespread in mainstream media (mainly due, I think, to misstatements by AP).

: Jesse Jackson now is in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#24)
by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:33:59 PM EST

and just arrived at the Capitol in Madison to join the protesters. Upside: More media attention. Downside: More dilution to come of the core issues.
I hope that he stays, though, and that other national leaders arrive to help this weekend, when the tea-partiers arrive to counter-protest and make peaceful protests for many days now turn ugly.

Parent

This needs an answer (2.00 / 1) (#65)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 07:49:36 PM EST

by sj on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 03:24:44 PM CST
that things happen in a vacuum. The point is that those collective bargaining rights were hard won and at great cost.
You don't just throw that away. Is it really that hard for you to extrapolate?

No sj,it isn't hard. In fact, I watched my Dad help unionize a company's location and I heard the taunts and slurs the people organizing went through. So I probably have a better idea than you.

My Father-in-law was a Teamster and I was, once upon a time, an IBEW member.

So I have no problem with unions organized to represent workers within/to private companies.

My problem is that it is beyond obvious that government unions should never have happened and that they are totally out of control with a result that they are making more money than the tax payer can afford and are bankrupting the system.

This needs fixing.

And I find that the idea that a union will get non biased treatment in negotiations from the same people they support and give money to is ridiculous.

That is a pure and demonstrable conflict of interest.

So, you're in favor (none / 0) (#67)
by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:52:02 AM EST

of abolishing unions for policemen, firemen,etc. as well?

Parent

: (Crickets) (none / 0) (#68)
by Yman on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:16:27 AM EST

... chirp, chirp ...

Parent

I for one, welcome my new oil (none / 0) (#2)
by me only on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:21:09 AM EST

overlord. Haslam and the TN Republicans are going after the teachers here as well. (Haslam going after tenure, the Senate is after collective bargaining.)

Tenure under attack in NY too... (none / 0) (#3)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:40:25 AM EST

If I was a teacher I'd have half a mind to turn in my chalk for ziplocs and sling dope...at least the customers appreciate the effort.

Do none of the union buster wanna-bes have kids? Or is mindless kick the dog really this epidemic? Wall St gone and stole billions from us and we're after teachers for concessions? Teachers?

Bizarro World.

Parent

Some of my nieces, future teachers (5.00 / 0) (#7)
by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:48:39 AM EST

and some in college in Wisconsin and almost at the end of their studies, have been so hurt and demoralized by these attacks. We are trying to keep them on track. And we are telling them to come on down when they're done, to leave Wisconsin.

Many do, which is great for us surrounding states, as that state has had a huge "brain drain" for years. One sent me several studies on this and reports of her former lieutenant governor addressing this in her campaign to be governor now (before she was run out by the White House, which also discouraged one of my nieces from participating in politics against last year).

Those studies that she sent (and I checked the link to the census data; the studies are correct) show that Wisconsin is below the national norm already in college graduates still living there, despite how many go to college there. So this governor is going to accelerate the brain drain in what many are starting to call "Wississippi."

Parent

I can't blame (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:02:09 PM EST

the ones who leave, nor the ones who will leave, and I hope your nieces take your advice. It's a shame, too, because Wisconsin has a first-class state university, although I wonder how long that's going to last? No doubt there will be cuts to higher education, as well, and I also cannot see first-class professors wanting to work there in the future if the public schools go into the toilet- many of them do have kids. I can't see any businesses who need an highly educated work force wanting to relocate there in the future, either.

Parent

I agree (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:02:18 PM EST

It's a free country and if the free citizens of WI do not want to pay what the teachers want the teachers should leave.

Parent

Come on Jim, be honest (5.00 / 2) (#16)
by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:10:32 PM EST

It's about the fact that the governor wants to make it illegal for public employees to not be able to engage in collective bargaining.

And if things are so bad, I think he should start by cutting his staff and all the Republicans in state government to one person per office who can answer the phone. It will be a small dent, but at least it will be more honest than this crap.

Parent

I think (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:31:49 PM EST

staff should be cut 50% for all politicians.

No, make that 99%!

Parent

I'm getting the vapors (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:33:03 PM EST

I actually agree with you, PPJ. ;-)

Parent

: I promise not to tell (5.00 / 0) (#53)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:48:34 PM EST

Parent

Great Post (5.00 / 3) (#28)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:41:51 PM EST

Thanks Jim, didn't realize it was a free country and that people could leave if they wanted to. Now that I know the people's of Wisconsin are free to leave; now I understand the entire debate.

Jim, you are a the perfect example as to why teachers and education are so important.

Parent

And you are a (none / 0) (#63)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 07:33:13 PM EST

perfect example of the "I lost so I will go to the snark."

Parent

: Don't be envious, PPJ (none / 0) (#64)
by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 07:47:06 PM EST

you'll come up with something better sometime soon.
;-)

Parent

you know (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:41:59 PM EST

I don't remember you saying stuff like this about republicans after the '08 elections.

I mean, didn't people vote for that scary muslim socialist? Shouldn't the republicans have let him implement his agenda in peace? What was up with all those tea-party mobs trying to eliminate the free will of all those voters?

Parent

Keith Ellison (none / 0) (#37)
by me only on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:07:45 PM EST

is a socialist?

Parent

: Dude (none / 0) (#38)
by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:08:49 PM EST

Keith Ellison is a bad-a$$ from Detroit. No way could he be a socialist! :)

Parent

Towanda (none / 0) (#25)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:35:44 PM EST

I went to UW Milwaukee and Stevens Point and graduated right before Tommy Thompson took his axe into education, he showed no mercy, and all of their education problems can be traced back to that idiot IMO.

Part of the problem is that Wisconsin has an agreement with several surrounding states, Minnesota for sure, they can go there and pay in-state tuition. So where you going to go, the state you live in or the state with considerably lower tuition. Who is going to leave their home state for higher tuition ?

When I graduated, 1998, $1200/semester + books, which I might add the Wisconsin Veterans Department picked up in addition to my GI Bill.

My point is that soon, this agreement, if it hasn't already, will be dissolved. Minnesota doesn't want to subsidize educations to people who have a good probability of leaving. Or if they keep electing republican's they will be one in the same as far as education.

Wisconsin used to be fairly neutral, but when the republicans ushered in hunters with their anti-gun shtick, it went republican. Now when I visit I feel like I am in a different place, family and friends who used to fairly neutral, politically, are now Fox and Friends, it's disturbing to here some of the non-sense that comes out of their mouths. These are people I love and used to respect greatly, now it's something I avoid as much as humanly possible.

Parent

I Figured Out Why Union Busting is... (5.00 / 2) (#18)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:18:45 PM EST

... the new sheep for the wolves.

I asked one of the Limbaugh clowns here about unions, America was built by unions, my dad and grandpa we in them. He mentioned something about his dad being in a union so asked what gives.

He seriously told me that unions have become so bloated that their useful life is gone by. Fine, if that's how he felt, but I kept digging and he let this gem slide:

Unions have no business using required dues to contribute politically.

So it's not the unions themselves, it's their political contributions, which I assume is a real republican issue, especially the state unions, which I am sure they feel are their tax dollars going to Democratic election campaigns. Hard to assume what meatheads are thinking, but that seems to fit very well.

You eliminate unions and unleash corporate donations and you have very republican's wet dream, complete control of the media pre-elections.

-----------------
It's not the present teachers that concern me as much as the college kids who would love to teach but want to make a descent living. Who in their right mind would choose that profession, a few, so we end up with the slackers who got no where else to go.

The clowns who were once only qualified to teach gym class are slowly working their way up to teaching critical subjects.

To add, it's not enough for these parents that I subsidize their children with enormous property taxes here in Texas (which I don't mind so long as we are turning out some quality educations), but damn, these are the same people whining about their taxes and teacher pensions and salaries and on and on. Ditto for the write off they get for kids, all subsidized by childless people.

The very least they could do is shut the F up and thank me for subsidizing their children.

Parent

Here's an oldie but goodie (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:25:10 PM EST

My sister sent to me this morning:

"A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican"
Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.
All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.
Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican's would still be sitting in the dark).
He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.
He turns on a radio talk show, the host's keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have".

Parent

Good one (none / 0) (#27)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:41:18 PM EST

I'm saving it to send to people I know who are constantly complaining about the "dreaded" liberals and "big government." (And I wonder if anyone has mentioned to Governor Walker that, if we had single-payer universal health care, his state, and private employers as well, would save a whole lot of money on health insurance costs for employees?)

Parent

: Don't Bother (none / 0) (#34)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:56:36 PM EST

I sent it out about a year ago to the people I thought would at the very least, would think about.
I kid you not, half of the responses I got we something to the effect of how much they liked Joe, which is especially astounding considering I grew up in rural Wisconsin and most of the people I sent it to are rural WI.
I depressed me for weeks to realize there was no helping my family and friends, people who used to care less about politics are now Fox News patrons and so far gone, they can't or won't believe a word of it.

Parent

Just don't enjoy a spliff Joe... (none / 0) (#30)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:46:35 PM EST

otherwise those wonderful liberals will want you arrested...for your own good:)

Parent

You are (none / 0) (#33)
by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:54:47 PM EST

such a Nancy Negative.

:)

Parent

: Had to be said... (none / 0) (#35)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:00:46 PM EST

but fret not liberals...nobody is perfect.
It's not even all or even most liberals, to be fair...mostly just ones who seek office:)

Parent

Spliff ? (none / 0) (#42)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:21:34 PM EST

Had to look that one up, must be that Yankee slang.

Even stoopid A-- Joe isn't capable of that feat, a big fat spliff with an AM radio chaser.

Parent

Just my little wisecrack... (none / 0) (#47)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:59:47 PM EST

to say that the "public good" can be taken to illogical and cruel extremes.

Part of the reason "liberal" is a dirty word now is because liberals had gone to far with the "public good" and waded into tyranny waters.

Like everything else...moderation, moderation, moderation.

Parent

Good heavens, man (none / 0) (#59)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 05:47:57 PM EST

The term "spliff" has been around forever (and I'm a child of the 60's- ancient). Not Yankee slang.

Parent

I did not know what a spliff was (none / 0) (#60)
by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 06:55:31 PM EST

until about three or four years ago. Our daughter uses the term, so I asked. I thought it was new or something :) They all love to say spliff right now. It makes their leg tingle.

Parent

: What's a Zandybar though? (none / 0) (#61)
by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 06:56:11 PM EST

Parent

You almost get it right (none / 0) (#39)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:12:18 PM EST

Government employee unions should be allowed to contribute to politicians.

It is called "conflict of interest." Also known as "bribery."

Parent

Agreed. That's why in Wisconsin (5.00 / 0) (#43)
by Towanda on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:23:42 PM EST

the governor's bill exempts police and firefighters, so they don't take take-home pay cuts and retain collective bargaining rights, because their unions supported him.

Or maybe that's not the example you had in mind.

Parent

ouch... should NOT... (none / 0) (#40)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:14:09 PM EST

and I even proof read it

Parent

What ? (none / 0) (#44)
by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:45:28 PM EST

Not to point out the obvious, but the 'conflict' is a feature of voting, not a problem. It's why I can't vote in Tampa (I live in Texas) the results in no way effect me, or in your words, there is no conflict of interest.

Are you suggesting teachers not vote or support the person who best represent their interests ?

Parent

No, the issue (none / 0) (#51)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:40:55 PM EST

is giving the same politicians who give them raises and benefits money.

That is, was and will be a conflict of interest.

Parent

how do you feel about (5.00 / 2) (#54)
by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:52:13 PM EST

campaign donations from people in the military?

Parent

Ding! (none / 0) (#55)
by jbindc on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 03:25:32 PM EST

And maybe military members should not be allowed to vote for president and members of Congress either.

Parent

Straw men form on the right. (none / 0) (#56)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 04:15:51 PM EST

or maybe the Left.

And after watching various Democratic organizations in past elections I think that some Democrats don't want them to vote.

Parent

jim, from the closed thread (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 05:29:55 PM EST

I get caught from both sides (none / 0) (#200)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18,
2011 at 04:13:06 PM EST
You should see me at the local Tea Party meeting stating I'm pro choice and want the drug laws reformed...

what you dont understand is that you lost anyone with a clue here:

You should see me at the local Tea Party meeting

Parent

: What you don't understand is that (none / 0) (#62)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 07:25:42 PM EST

I don't care what your opinion of me is.
Now, is that plain enough?

Parent

Some people also say (none / 0) (#57)
by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 04:47:53 PM EST

that Republicans benefit from campaigns and policies that discourage the poor and disadvantaged to rightfully exercise their franchise.

Parent

Meathead? (none / 0) (#41)
by me only on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:18:50 PM EST

Are you Archie Bunker?

Parent

Weird - I don't see the spam post (none / 0) (#5)
by Anne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:47:04 AM EST

when I go to "Home," but it's definitely there as the most recent post after this open thread.

< Friday Morning Open Thread | Gift Baskets - How to Sell Bracelets >

This is a new one for me...

I'm selling gift baskets now (none / 0) (#11)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:04:05 PM EST

Kidding.

Actually I don't see it so maybe Jeralyn dealt with it?

I'm really not sure.

Parent

It's in our story list (none / 0) (#12)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:06:40 PM EST

I e-mailed Jeralyn.

Someone appears to have broken into our Admin function.

Parent

Great. Not. (none / 0) (#15)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:10:05 PM EST

So what did you guys do to pi$$ off the hackers?

Parent

: Dunno (none / 0) (#17)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:10:52 PM EST

I deleted it. But obviously we have a problem.

Parent

I'm seeing it still (none / 0) (#13)
by Zorba on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:08:40 PM EST

At the top of the thread, where the arrows take you to the previous or next thread. (No, Anne's not seeing things. Or maybe we both are!) ;-)

Parent

: I see that (none / 0) (#14)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:09:31 PM EST

I've e-mailed Jeralyn.

Parent

Must be "Anonymous"... (none / 0) (#6)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:47:24 AM EST

with that kinda cyber-power.

: The funny thing is that I immediately (5.00 / 2) (#8)
by Anne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 11:52:50 AM EST

thought that BTD had been practicing the fine are of headline-writing, and it was going to be a political post of some kind...

Parent

Classic Cindy Lee Berryhill (none / 0) (#20)
by Dadler on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:29:05 PM EST

San Diego's own performs the quite amusing song "Make Way for the Handicapped." (LINK)

: One more, "Forty Cent Raise" (none / 0) (#23)
by Dadler on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:33:10 PM EST

A little working class anthem. (LINK)

Parent

SPAM again (none / 0) (#26)
by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:39:19 PM EST

Unless TL is trying to sell me life insurance...

These hackers are nute.

Deleted (none / 0) (#31)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:46:48 PM EST

But we need to deal with this.

Parent

The appearance of spam posts (none / 0) (#32)
by Anne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:47:44 PM EST

is not a good sign...the only positive thing is that it doesn't appear on the front page, but I'm sure the spammers are working on that one, too.

Sheesh.

Parent

: Between this... (none / 0) (#36)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:07:19 PM EST

and Watson kickin' human arse on Jeapordy, it might be time to unplug everything. Skynet is self-aware.

Parent

I was wondering what the hold-up was (none / 0) (#45)
by ruffian on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:50:17 PM EST

on my plastic cat delivery.

: What a coincidence... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:01:26 PM EST

my opium delivery is past due too. (kidding, kidding)

Parent

my favorite new website (none / 0) (#46)
by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 01:52:29 PM EST

Lesbians who look like Justin Bieber

hoplophobia (none / 0) (#49)
by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:13:05 PM EST

I love learning new words.

2. What would you anticipate would be the biggest objections from opponents to allowing any person with a valid concealed firearm carrying permit or license to carry a concealed firearm?
Many of the anti-rights positions stem from hoplophobia, morbid fear of weapons, a medical condition whose undiagnosed sufferers need treatment. Unfortunately, they often get involved in efforts to deny the civil rights of others instead of seeking help for themselves. They fail to distinguish between legitimate gun ownership and use, and homicidal maniacs and crime, indicative of their problem.

Oculus & Ruffian.... (none / 0) (#50)
by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:18:15 PM EST

'Diary of a Madman' got 4 stars from the NY Daily News...I'm stoked!

: Yay! One week from today I will be on the plane (none / 0) (#52)
by ruffian on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 02:43:56 PM EST

jetting your way. Really getting excited now that it is close.

Parent