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Wednesday Late Afternoon Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 05:49:31 PM EST
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My 2 cents, Obama released the birth certificate too soon. Should have made the GOP Presidential candidates squirm on the issue until the Fall.

Open Thread.

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    Wednesday Late Afternoon Open Thread | 149 comments (149 topical)

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    You are (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:03:30 PM EST
    banking on them being smart enough to actually use the issue. I hope you are right.

    How many (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:09:12 PM EST
    times have you heard that this issue or that issue was going to do x, y or z only to have it fizzle? It's like Lucy with the football. If it works I will more than give them props.

    Parent
    I do (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:26:28 PM EST
    but the party has missed a bunch of gimmes in the past so I have a wait and see attitude. I mean there's been so many disappointments in the last few years that I'm not ready to jump up and down for joy yet.

    Parent
    They're using it now (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:06:30 PM EST
    They've played it pretty well I think.

    While I think release of the birth certificate was premature, my viewpoint is certainly debatable.

    Parent

    The timing does (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:55:07 PM EST
    undercut the new Corsi book which is already in print but not available until May....

    That book had the Birther issue in the title....

    Talk about sabotaging a book....can't fix it now.....no one will read it now....a lot of money wasted on that....

    Parent

    Love it (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:42:22 PM EST
    As Charlie would say, "Winning!"

    Parent
    Anything (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:57:09 PM EST
    that implodes that creepy Corsi is a good thing. Maybe he will crawl back under the rock he came from.

    Parent
    God (none / 0) (#152)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 02:40:17 PM EST
    I'd laugh if Bookstore employee's started putting printouts of Obama's BC inside the jacket of Corsi's book.

    Parent
    Just his brain- you really want to go there? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:05:03 PM EST


    Incredible damage in North Alabama (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:15:52 PM EST
    Four or five tornadoes, perhaps more, in my area alone. Phones out, cell phones out, 3g and iphones working.

    more than 300k people without power tonight, multiple deaths.

    Mile-wide tornado in Tuscaloosa.

    It's a mess.

    I'm on 3g and battery power. I'll check back, but saving it to contact people if I have to. If you have friends/family here, message me, I'll see what I can find.  It is a mess, but I'll do what I can for you.

    Cheers,

    Jeff

    Yikes (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:18:05 PM EST
    Stay safe Jeff.

    Parent
    What happened in Alabama is devastating (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 07:28:56 AM EST
    Latest on-line news reports 178 dead.

    Your offer is very generous and I'm sure those who have relatives in the area will be grateful for your help.

    Once things settle down a little, let us know what is the best way to help. Not a fan of the Red Cross so maybe you can recommend another organization that you see really helping.

    As ever, stay safe.


    Parent

    As a... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:23:00 PM EST
    (mostly) lifelong Oklahoman I've been through my share of tornadoes but rarely have I seen anything that looks like what happened in Alabama tonight.

    Look at this picture.

    Thinking of you guys.

    Parent

    It's terrible (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:25:22 PM EST
    Bad in Birmingham too.  People were getting messages on their phones from family and friends when Zoey was at gymnastics around 5:30.  I'm tired of this weather.  Be well, take good care.

    Parent
    Take care, jeff and MT. (none / 0) (#111)
    by caseyOR on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:46:28 PM EST
    When I saw the coverage of the tornados on the news I thought of both of you instantly. I am relieved to know that you are both okay.

    Please stay safe. I don't know what aid I could offer you from this distance, but if you need anything you think I can provide, please let me know.

    Be safe, kids.

    Parent

    Enterprise, Fort Rucker, Montgomery okay (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:58:07 PM EST
    It's those North of us.  I was watching Zoey at gymnastics class when I first heard there was something horrible happening.  We went to dinner.  Came home and I was talking to family in Colorado via phone, when we heard on CNN how very bad it was North of us.  I wish it was spring break still, we just finished it up. We could at least devote a day to helping clean up.  It is unfathomable what on F4 can do until you see the aftermath, and there is lots of cleaning up to do.  And allows others to tend to much more heartwrenching tasks immediately at hand.  When we got hit by a big one the hospitals were all brimming.  I would imagine we are looking at many many injured people along with those that have been killed, and lots of missing and deceased pets too along with destruction of everything many people have.

    Parent
    Trump (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by lentinel on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:42:47 PM EST
    certainly managed to get Obama's attention.

    Now - is there any way that we could get his attention?

    Too soon? (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:07:39 PM EST
    Riiiight.  We all remember how well it worked out to let the Swift Boat morons go unchecked for so long.  

    Was it Plouffe who, during the (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:32:03 PM EST
    campaign, sd., can't let anything go unresponded to.  Jump right on it.  

    Parent
    Yeah, sure, two and a half (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:48:12 AM EST
    years later... THat's jumpin' right on it, Plouffe!


    Parent
    Sheesh (none / 0) (#140)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 08:30:19 AM EST
    You think this was hurting Obama? Idiotic.

    Parent
    This topic has definitely been hurting Obama (none / 0) (#142)
    by Farmboy on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 08:50:11 AM EST
    The idea of a "real" certificate has become too pervasive. Back at the election it was the normal twenty-some percent who are the heart and soul of the tinfoil hat brigade who were the majority of birthers.

    But lately democrats I know have started asking, "why won't he release the form?" When I tell them he did, years ago, they just respond with, "No, the real form. That'll end the discussion." That's why this had to happen. The stupid is infectious, and has made its way into his party.

    Parent

    yes I do (none / 0) (#147)
    by loveed on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 10:25:49 AM EST
    He should have released it years ago. this issue kept getting bigger and bigger. Not because people thought that he was born in Kenya. But why not show his LFBC, I have to show mine. Until a few years ago Ohio would not accept the COB.They wanted the long form.
      Most people always kept a copy of there long form with there important paper, because you need it for everything(SS,driver lincense,enroll your children in school,passport ect..).
      The only reason he released it now, was because of the polls. To many people started wandering and asking  why not release it? when 30% of american start beliving this.It was past time.
      Why did he not released it before? Because in the black community they took this as a sign of racism. The only person they every for there BC was a black man. It fuel a lot angry toward white americans. This is why I thought he should have released a long time ago.
      He has done nothing to help black people, or poor people. he down to 78% approval rating in the black community.
      I think we all should be americans. And in america,american have the right to ask question.Even of there president

    Parent
    In Hawaii (none / 0) (#153)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 02:41:51 PM EST
    you know the state that issues the BC- the short form is the one with actual legal authority according to everything I've read.

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 07:41:22 AM EST
    "Can I just say I was there, so I knew," adding, "I knew I had been born. I remembered it."

    This is Obama on Oprah.

    He remembers being born...

    Oh yes.

    It's all coming back to me now...


    The quip--to most people, anyway-- (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:29:34 PM EST
    is considered a quick self-deprecatory bit of humor. (Humor in the world can cut through a lot of stuff.)

    Parent
    In any case, Trump continues his self-immolation (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:06:32 PM EST


    Actually (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:20:14 PM EST
    I'm waiting on Trumps Taxes- he said he'd release them fully ASAP after Obama released his birth certificate, so where are they?

    Parent
    If They Look Anything Like Trump's... (none / 0) (#144)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 09:21:16 AM EST
    ... birth certificate, it should make me laugh real hard.

    I been wondering if Obama didn't release the BC in hopes that Trump would take credit and ultimately give him some legitimacy.

    I know, it's beyond stooopid, but so is the GOP Presidential line-up.  I can only assume this will make Trump stronger, not weaker.

    I can't wait to watch him to try weasel out of his multiple bankruptcies.  I've soured on Obama, but not enough to want the GOP running the show.  So Trump/Palin would be my choice.

    I think it's funny that anti-abortion guy who didn't know Roe VS Wade was about privacy, is currently questioning Obama's grades.

    Parent

    The counter to my view is (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:10:57 PM EST
    Trump becomes more viable and determined to run now because of this.

    Don't think this is right though as the reality is Trump only gained traction because of the birther issue.

    He'll have to double down and call it a fraud.

    I bet the WHite House is hoping he does.

    Parent

    He's moved on to academic transcripts, (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:15:11 PM EST
    while leaving open the possibility of deciding that the newly supplied cert is deficient in some way.

    I think Obama may have released today to paper over some nasty FOIAed INS records from his father that came out today.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:17:40 PM EST
    I saw those. Would make sense as to why the bc was released today.

    Parent
    he's pitching to (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:23:48 PM EST
    the folks who made Left Behind a best seller, gave Bush two terms, said Saddam attacked us on 9/11 and proved Vince Foster was murdered..

    What may sound ludicrous to you all is nothing but more fresh blood and red meat to a lot of people.

    I wouldn't be so quick to say that this is necessarily all about Trump "self destructing."

    Parent

    The folks who gave Bush one term (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:26:18 PM EST
    (not two) are morons, not birthers.

    Parent
    Is (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:59:48 PM EST
    there a difference?

    Parent
    Yeah kind of (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by sj on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 11:29:51 PM EST
    In that all birthers are morans (sic) but not all morans are birthers.

    Parent
    That dog won't hunt though (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:48:04 PM EST
    Is Trump going to release his transcripts, much less his financial records?

    Silly stuff. The birther issue is the one that made the GOP squirm.

    Parent

    47% of them (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:29:12 PM EST
    are lapping it up..

    Irrelvancies like factual evidence don't matter. What's important is to do anything that makes the people who threaten their world view squirm.

    It's based in pure fear and hostility.

    If Trump can't release his transcripts it's because some powerful liberals somewhere destroyed or doctored them.  

    Parent

    The 47% (none / 0) (#101)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:05:03 PM EST
    believe the birther stuff because they want to believe.

    Nothing will change their minds.

    Parent

    Doubt that (none / 0) (#121)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:22:11 AM EST
    It's not stuff that would make a big splash in mainstream media because it isn't relevant to anything, and he surely figured out long ago his father has an eye for other women.

    Parent
    But it did downplay the Fed report on the economy (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:29:57 AM EST
    I can see the crazy right trying to tie his dad's eye for women to him. It means nothing as Obama is not his father, but they seem very able to skip that fact.

    I long for the day we hear "It's the economy, stupid."

    Parent

    I agree with you that they're not relevant, (none / 0) (#123)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:25:47 AM EST
    but then again, neither are the birthers. That said, I think they would have gotten some play absent Obama's new release.

    Parent
    Trump will say his work is done (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:58:05 PM EST
    ....now that he has forced Obama to release his birth certificate....

    Releasing those tax returns and answering questions about his multiple bankruptcies will make him shy away from running.

    Parent

    Well, I am not so sure. (none / 0) (#84)
    by KeysDan on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:14:58 PM EST
    It may have started as a publicity stunt, but I think he may have gotten the bug.  It is sometimes difficult to know if we are reading all this is in the MSM or the Onion, but Trump rolls on,  sort of like this: " Gee, they love me, I am saying all the things that they think but feel they can't say, and just look at those polls.  I replaced  Sarah Palin as the media darling, and we all now watch as she falls like a rock. But, I am different. I am the Donald."  It would be foolish to underestimate the draw of a clown, and, after all, look at his Republican competition--Gingrich, Romney,Huckabee, Pawlenty, Santorum, Daniels anyone?   And Haley, we hardly knew ye, but what we did, well....  

    Parent
    This will make trump stronger (none / 0) (#148)
    by loveed on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 11:07:21 AM EST
      The atraction to trump, Is more about someone taking on obama.Not afraid of being called a racsist.He's talking about jobs,china,oil prices ect..(you only hear what you want). I don't agree with some of his ideas (stealing the oil of country we overthrow) at least he is talking about it. The BC issue got him attention.
      If the media had vetted Obama properly in the first place we would not be talking about this now. Next to come his college grades,rezo,his true work as community organier, who truly was behind he campain,his fundraisering from the last election, the purchase of his home,Michelle big promotion and raise after he won the DNC nomination ect... A whole lot of issue remain.(I really don't care about thess issue, some american do)
      It was not black america that elected obama, it was republican & white american (blacks are only 14% of the population).After they voted for him they became racsist, because they have question he don't want to answer. I don't think they will  vote for him the next time.

    Parent
    Am I wrong for thinking (none / 0) (#5)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:19:01 PM EST
    the Birth Certificate thing is a something different than the normal stupid GOP attacks, in that its almost entirely race based? By this I mean it differs from the attacks on Obama about "death lists" or "Rezko" or what have you which clearly fit into the paradigm of crazy that GOP bs fell in during the Clinton Admin, or to put it more succinctly- the Birth Certificate thing would not be an attack if Obama was white.

    To ask the question is to answer it (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:22:19 PM EST
    Birtherism is OBVIOUSLY racism.

    Parent
    Agree. If his father had been born in (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:00:30 PM EST
    Sweden would we be having this discussion? No.

    Parent
    Call me crazy (2.00 / 0) (#52)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:12:09 PM EST
    but yes we would.  Think about it.  What if Bill Clinton's father had been born in Sweden.....you don't think there would have been Republican uproar to get a copy of his birth certificate?

    I do.

    Anything to delegitimize the president of the other party is practiced....all the time.  But since Obama is black, suddenly it's called racism....sillyness...but this is silly season, I guess.  

    The Republicans impeached Bill (thankfully didn't convict).  If they'd done the same to Obama, I'm certain Democrats would be calling that racism too.

    I'm getting sick and tired about making everything about his race.  It's shades of the primaries all over again.  I'm sitting here patiently waiting for it to backfire.

    Parent

    Nobody is "making it about race" (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:14:55 PM EST
    except the people for whom it is clearly about race. I.e., the birthers.

    If you don't see this, you are simply detached from reality. Sorry.

    Parent

    Give me a break. (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:14:58 PM EST
    Both of Michael Dukakis' parents were born in Greece.  Did you hear anything about that or see anything like this?

    The only people "making this about race" are those practicing bigotry.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:29:25 PM EST
    I did hear a lot of that about Dukakis. The fact that his parents were immigrants was a big thing with a lot of people. Also Mario Cuomo was talked about being a "mobster" because he was an Italian from New York.

    Since none of them became President it never reached the level it has with Obama.

    Parent

    And Lott or somebody (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:34:06 PM EST
    said "folks down here won't vote for someone named Coo-mo."

    This is news, that the Right can't win without blowing dog whistles to bigots?

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:59:36 PM EST
    that's kind of my point. Obama is no exception in what they do.

    Parent
    This is the first time since (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by christinep on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:50:51 PM EST
    the events surrounding the reality of MLK and, before that, the images that I remember as a young girl when watching then-Gov. Faubus threatening young, black, high-school students in Little Rock that I have felt--deep in the gut and in my whole self--that the staying-power of the "birther conspiracy" is really nothing more than naked racism. It reeks of: This man is black & this man is President...and the birthers cannot connect the two.

    I am confessing my own feelings here. I'm white, and--like you--I flinch when some disagreements are characterized as racist. (In fact, my response to allegations that former President Clinton engaged in dog-whistling of a racist nature was a response of anger at the accusers. To me, it was hardball politics, nothing more.) But, this situation--the continual attack on the difference or otherness of the first black President, the constant references to Kenya (dark Kenya), the more frequent cartoon "chimp" representations passed around the Internet & elsewhere, and today's foray by Trump and others like him into the "how did he get admitted to Harvard" trope (trans: whoo, whoo...affirmative action)can only be described as race-based.

    It may be xenophobic, yes. It may be all-out fear, yes.  And, most definitely, it is racism in an open & public forum against a sitting President...it is ugliness.

    Parent

    Even Bob Schieffer at CBS News (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by caseyOR on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:41:28 PM EST
    gets the racist undertones to all this. Tonight he was talking to Katie Couric about the birther nonsense and Trump's demand to see Obama's grades. Schieffer, who is not one to stray from the Versailles party line, came right out and declared all of this to be ugly racism. The demand to see the grades, Bob said, is code for "he only got in because he's black."  He expressed disgust with the whole thing.

    I was a little surprised because the mainstream press is not in the habit of pointing the truth of a matter. Schieffer didn't do any of the usual "they said, then they said" cr@p that passes for journalism these days. He was direct and to the point.

    And, yes, I do agree that any Democratic President would be getting hit with some similar insanity. Witness what happened to both Clintons; and the inference that Cuoma was mobbed-up. Geez, the GOP used the mafia slur against Gerry Ferrarro in "84.

    This stuff with Obama, though, is way over the top. And the difference is his skin color. I am not saying that every person who "isn't sure" Obama was born in the U.S. is a racist. I am saying that the people driving these issues are motivated by racism. And they are mining every seam of racial resentment that runs through our country.

    Parent

    casey (none / 0) (#115)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 11:02:17 PM EST
    by now I do believe that everyone who buys the birther stuff is indeed a racist. They want to believe because of race.

    Parent
    agree (none / 0) (#116)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 11:12:51 PM EST
    And they are mining every seam of racial resentment that runs through our country

    and it's disgusting.

    Parent

    I have thought about it. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:21:22 PM EST
    I just don't agree. 'he was really born in Europe' is not quite the same dog whistle.  It reminds me of how Bush said '.....in Africa' in the famous 16 words in the SOTU. These guys know what they are doing.

    Parent
    Okay. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:20:15 PM EST
    No, I feel the same way.

    Parent
    I guess we can test the theory (none / 0) (#90)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:34:52 PM EST
    that anyone will use the heritage of the POTUS as a reason the delegitimize him as soon as a non-WASP Republican is elected.  

    Parent
    THERE AMERICAN!!! (none / 0) (#149)
    by loveed on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 11:18:10 AM EST
     Please stop this.American has the right to ask any question they have about the POTUS. They went into clinton sex life,gwb national guard,they follow gwb around in a gorrilla suit(it's only racist when it a blackman?). It always something that not important that some american want to know. Why is it if you don't agree with obama or question anything about him your a racist?

    Parent
    Note (none / 0) (#154)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 02:45:56 PM EST
    that none of the smears you mentioned about Bush and Clinton questioned whether they were actually Americans- that's why, sorry President's are always smeared but Obama's the only one I can remember being repeatedly questioned about whether or not he's an American and frankly its not all that hard to see why- a lot of people just don't think of Black People as real Americans.

    Parent
    No other (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:24:43 PM EST
    people have had their citizenship questioned but Obama is the only one recently. Mitt Romney's father had the same questions asked about his citizenship.


    Parent
    Nothing like this. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:28:52 PM EST
    George Romney was ACTUALLY born in another country.  That fact was never in question.

    Birtherism is pure bigotry.

    Parent

    Why (2.00 / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:37:13 PM EST
    aren't they asking David Scott or John Lewis down here for their birth certificate? It's not racism it's xenophobia.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:43:58 PM EST
    Are you seriously suggesting that an act cannot be racist unless it is done to all people of the same race?

    Birtherism is xenophobic, true.  It is also racist.

    Parent

    To say (2.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:49:45 PM EST
    that's it's purely racist is really ignoring a lot of what's going on. The same things are being done to Hispanics too. Yeah, if they were doing it to all African Americans I would definitely say racism but it's not. It's only being done to Obama and I think it's because of his name and his background fires up their xenophobic instincts.

    Parent
    I said it was pure bigotry. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:53:51 PM EST


    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:55:06 PM EST
    i can agree with you on that.

    Parent
    Without a doubt (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:56:02 PM EST
    Of course it is racially motivated bigotry that fuels birtherism.

    Parent
    Call me (none / 0) (#29)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:54:59 PM EST
    when it's systematically done to Irish, German, British people etc.  Obviously targeting Latinos is racist as well.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:06:07 PM EST
    down here Caucasians are targeted too if they are from other parts of the country. Or if they don't have the same belief system or are liberals etc...

    Parent
    mmm (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by CST on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 09:58:06 AM EST
    hating someone for being Greek, aka the "wrong" kind of white - still racist.  You see it all the time, not as much as other types of racism, at least not anymore, but it's still racism.

    It's like saying Hitler didn't hate the Jews since he also hated Jehovah's Witnesses who are technically Christian.  And no, I'm not saying the birthers are Nazis but you know what I mean.

    There is a difference between the swift boat type of targeting from the racist stuff.  It doesn't make the swift-boat stuff ok, it's just different.  That's about what someone does, their beliefs and actions, not who they are.

    Parent

    I would (none / 0) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 01:09:34 PM EST
    put that more into the general category of bigotry than racism since I wouldn't consider being Greek a race anymore than being Italian a race.

    I think extreme nationalism is what I would categorize what they are doing.

    Parent

    I think you are right (none / 0) (#95)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:40:06 PM EST
    Ga6thDem that the reactions are a little more complicated than just pure racism, although I do think that is what drives it, esp. in this case.  Digby for example wrote an interesting post about people who listen to Limbaugh and the prejudices involved in actually believing his BS are coded and varied.  It's one of the best posts I've read, period, all year.  The neo-Confederacy, etc.  ...it's interesting stuff.

    One of the weird things to me is people who "don't know" if the President was born here or not...you don't know?  You're willing to entertain that concept?  A fair % of Indies are and that's weird/worrying (for the state of the nation if nothing else).

    Parent

    I actually think a fair number (none / 0) (#126)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:36:29 AM EST
    of the "don't knows" are people who don't care and aren't even aware of the constitutional requirement to be born in this country at all.  It's such a hugely immigrant country that I bet lots of people have no idea, despite all the media discussion, most of which has been incredibly confused.


    Parent
    It will happen (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:56:58 PM EST
    when (if?) a Latino becomes President.

    Count on it.

    Parent

    It's called (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:57:04 PM EST
    "the others" whoever that might be.

    Parent
    The "others" (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by christinep on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:14:40 PM EST
    Yes, it is about other-ism...that other person happens to be the first black President. In my 60+ years, this "birtherism" stuff is the most aggressive racist attack on an elected high-level official that I have ever witnessed.

    Today, I've alternated my laughter with the President playing his card at the right time--in between holidays and before vacations, etc. and after enough people were somehow "engaged" in this strange situation--with a disgust that the percentages of people who call themselves citizens & believe this birtherism nonsense has actually grown beyond the fringe of the fringe.  Now, its on to the a black-can't-possibly-have-been-accepted-into-the-Ivy-League real conspiracy nonsense for these RW types.

    My admiration for a President who remains calm & intelligently patient under this kind of racist attack only grows with each example of ugly attack they produce.

    Parent

    His race (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:37:06 PM EST
    is not what is driving a lot of them. They try to deligitimize any and all Dem Presidents because the GOP belives that they are entitled to the presidency.

    If Dukakis had won they would be talking about how he couldn't be a "real american" because his parents came from Greece. If Mario Cuomo was president they would be talking about how he was a mobster. The GOP will use anything that they think they can. They are using the fact that Obama's father was from Kenya against him because it's something that they think they can use. It's just how they operate and it's one of the reasons that Obama's PPUS strategy has been so disastrous for the party and the country. You don't legitimize these creeps, you defeat them until they run away with their tails underneath their legs.

    Parent

    Why are your trying so hard (none / 0) (#67)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:45:46 PM EST
    to absolve birthers of racism?

    It is clear.....No need for extended explanations....

    Parent

    I'm not (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:49:43 PM EST
    trying to "absolve" them but I think that people are just saying it's racism and not really understanding what is driving these people. If you just dismiss them as a bunch of "racists" you are never going to be able to defeat them.

    Parent
    Ga6thdem (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:46:02 PM EST
    is not trying to absolve birthers of racism.

    He's saying that Conservatives will use anything to get voters to cast ballots against their own interests.  He's talking about what drives Conservatives, a broad view of the problem.

    Racism is an oft used weapon in that drive.  In this case, birthers capitalize on deep seated racism to achieve their goal.  There are other tactics as well like pitting worker against worker, workers against their own unions, etc.

    At bottom conservatism is about establishing a dominant, privileged aristocracy.  Since they are naturally outnumbered they use any tactic at hand to divide the opposition.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:54:08 PM EST
    I read the NY Times Magazine profile of Obama's mother this afternoon and there was a part recounting a time Obama, as a child, was out playing in the streets and some kids started screaming racial slurs and throwing rocks at him.  His mom basically just shrugged it off, saying that he was used to it by now and knew how to handle it.

    I guess he has been dealing with this his whole life, but personally I do not know how he does it.  There is no way I could keep my cool about this stuff the way he does.  I have been so royally angry all day long that I have been snapping at everyone.

    Parent

    It would be interesting (none / 0) (#119)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 11:44:49 PM EST
    to see how this would've played out had Obama been born in Kansas.  It does seem at times like the nation is in a permanent state of shock that "Hawaii" is not a vacation paradise peripherally related to our nation, but in fact, a state.

    Parent
    He could have been born in Peoria, IL (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 11:50:20 PM EST
    and they still wouldn't believe it.

    Parent
    Hey, I was born in Peoria, IL :-) (none / 0) (#133)
    by caseyOR on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 01:39:33 AM EST
    A surprisingly Republican city when one considers the presence of Caterpillar's unionized factories (5 of them in the Peoria area).

    These days, of course, manufacturing isn't what it was when I was a kid. And, so, the unions aren't what they were when I was a kid. Still, there have only been three different congressmen representing the IL-18 during my life, all Republicans: Robert Michel, Ray LaHood and currently Congressman Schock.

    Parent

    Loved the spot (none / 0) (#155)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 02:48:06 PM EST
    during the campaign criticizing Obama and family for "jetting off to an exotic locale" instead of going somewhere normal for a break like Hilton Head or Martha's Vineyard-- you know because going to the state where you spent a majority of your childhood is just crazy out there and all.  

    Parent
    And yet (none / 0) (#156)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    Alaska is "real 'murca..."

    Parent
    British? (none / 0) (#103)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:17:40 PM EST
    English, Scotch or Welsh?

    Parent
    well if it truely (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:42:40 PM EST
    is pure bigotry, than the only logical conclusion that can be reached is that 47% of the Republican Party are bigots. That's the % of Republicans who believe Obama "was born somewhere other than the U.S", according to the poll NPR referenced yesterday.

    Though of course, one must to keep in mind that NPR is cesspool of left wing propaganda..  

    Parent

    I am readily prepared to think (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:45:05 PM EST
    that 47% of of Republicans are bigots, FWIW.

    Parent
    Seems low to me frankly (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:49:09 PM EST
    A third of Dems are too imo.

    Parent
    I should have said "at least" (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:52:09 PM EST
    It's probably really something like 85% of Republicans--depending on region. I think about 30% of Dems is about right too.

    But then, it all depends on the issue.

    Parent

    True (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:53:23 PM EST
    Depends on the issue.

    Parent
    That high? (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:47:45 PM EST
    I would think 1/3.

    But this birther issue did catch fire and the fervor of the anti-Latino fire in Arizona was quite high....

    Parent

    iirc, tonight ABC news poll had it at 67% R's (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:06:28 PM EST
    and 48% I's that were into this birther crap. No mention of D's . . .

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#97)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:45:57 PM EST
    if you're trying to get votes, doesn't that trouble you?  I'm trying to find the ABC poll but I read similar numbers over the weekend in the paper.

    Parent
    It was on the teevee . . . (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:40:22 PM EST
    that's why I said "iirc" and no link. I'm not 100% sure about the R # but do remember the I one. On the R's, they said about 2/3s before showing the #. Oy.

    Honestly, I don't think I can take all this BS. It's f*cking embarrassing and gets away from what's important. Jobs and the trashing of our social safety nets . . . . for starters . . .

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:51:58 PM EST
    gets away from what's important. Jobs and the trashing of our social safety nets ...

    That's the whole point.

    Parent

    Possibly (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:46:21 PM EST
    Mypoint is more focusedon what would have been the best use of it by the Obama team.

    I would have let the GOP candidates drift in the wind until the Fall.

    Parent

    Make them talk about it in the debates (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:48:40 PM EST
    Let Trump prance around even more....Then, pull the trap door....Mebbe so.....

    Parent
    I think I disagree (none / 0) (#127)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:39:24 AM EST
    If you've heard Trump discourse on other issues of national policy, you'd want if you were the Obama people to get off the birther stuff as fast as possible and onto some major attention to his ideas on policy, which are spectacularly ludicrous.  He makes Sarah Palin look like a sober intellectual.


    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:20:03 PM EST
    I agree that it would have been better to wait until there was a nominee and hit them with it BUT it's just as possible that the GOP nominates a candidate who's not a birther and then it wouldn't have the impact.

    Romney rejected birtherism before today (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:49:42 PM EST
    And since he will most likely be the nomninee....

    Parent
    Why release it at all? (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:34:08 PM EST
    Not a new line of attack, as questions were raised by some during '08 campaign. Lends credibility to Trump as a political opponent.  

    That last part (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:35:14 PM EST
    may well be the goal.

    Parent
    11 dimensional? Don't throw me in (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:48:40 PM EST
    that ___ patch?

    Parent
    I think it might be (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:45:16 PM EST
    But the reality is he won;t be running against Trump.

    I would have used it to disadvantage his likely opponents.

    Parent

    In think it was well done (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:59:13 PM EST
    Did you see his statement to the press- I posted a link on the open read this morning.

    I am all for calling repubs and the press silly fools that are not focusing on the important issues any time it is called for. Doing it today does not preclude doing it again if they keep it up. I wish Obama had been in campiagn mode for the last 2 years.

    Parent

    "Carnival barker" (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:40:41 AM EST
    was a pretty good way to put it, IMO.

    Parent
    The timing (none / 0) (#82)
    by christinep on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:06:16 PM EST
    This conspiracy garbage has spread...as demonstrated by poll-after-poll in recent months. Like an infection. At some point, it would undermine the character of the person it was meant to attack. The timing for the President was critical--not too soon when very few knew what it was about, not during holidays or vacation time or government shutdown imminent threats...but, when people were beginning to hear more & possibly inculcate some of this sputum.

    Today, the President acted swiftly, without advance billing, and with a homer to centerfield.
    Methinks it was well-done.

    Parent

    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by KeysDan on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:33:54 PM EST
    The Trump bonfire had to be extinguished.  It would have been tempting to let it go on, and on and then knee cap Trump et al, but repetition of an uncorrected lie can morphs into a "truth".  While the documents will not satisfy the birther faithful, it makes it more difficult for the media to let the wackos have their unchallenged say.

    Parent
    I think the issue was (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:42:03 AM EST
    media and the independents, who were starting to show up in polls as doubters because of all the noise.  That really did have to be stopped, and the BC should do it for most late-comers to birther nonsense.


    Parent
    Well I'm glad he did it (none / 0) (#26)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:53:41 PM EST
    the birtherism was just getting depressing.  It was literally front page news.  I should probably just prepare for the next wave of depressing coded GOP bigotry, but at least this is out of the way.

    Perhaps (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 06:54:49 PM EST
    But it is important that Obama be reelected, if for no other reason than there are likely to be more Supreme Court vacancies.

    This issue helped him in that regard imo.

    Parent

    Is it wrong for me to hope (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:00:39 PM EST
    that Justice Ginsburg is considering retirement this spring?

    Parent
    It's right of you imo (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:03:21 PM EST
    No guarantee of reelection.

    I hope she resigns. Hell, Breyer too.  

    Parent

    Didn't realize he was 72 (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:07:08 PM EST
    That said, my understanding is that he is in good health.

    I can think of two good nominees: Neal Katyal and Denny Chin. No doubt there are many others, but I think those two are confirmable and (likely) ideologically reliable.

    Parent

    I know Chin (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:15:15 PM EST
    a really good guy and now a good judge.

    Katyal certainly is a smart fellow. Probably not seasoned enough for the SCOTUS.

    Need a 50 year old appeals court judge for the next one I think.

    Parent

    I would rather not wait (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:28:05 PM EST
    for the "seasoning" that would inevitably require Katyal to say more about what he thinks. He may have already said too much!

    Chin comes to mind for a number of reasons. Not least this week because of the bigoted attacks on Vaughn Walker are similar to what Chin faced (and imposed sanctions over) in the 90s.

    Parent

    what do you mean about this? (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:24:30 AM EST
    for the "seasoning" that would inevitably require Katyal to say more about what he thinks. He may have already said too much!

    I'd appreciate your perspective :)

    Parent

    Well, you can get an idea of it (none / 0) (#125)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:36:11 AM EST
    here.

    And then, of course, he would be asked about his sister.

    Parent

    Thanks! (none / 0) (#132)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 01:05:45 AM EST
    will read your links, and much appreciated :)

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:07:14 PM EST
    What do you think will happen if Obama gets reelected but gets a GOP senate? Do you think he would even get to nominate a Supreme Court Justice?

    Parent
    That's a far better problem to (none / 0) (#51)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:09:59 PM EST
    have to deal with.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    you'll get a Kagan type.

    Not a terrible thing imo.

    Parent

    It's a good thing your concerns about Kagan (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:38:21 PM EST
    were apparently unfounded. I think everything we knew about her at the time added up to exactly what we got--and I expected.

    Parent
    I supported Kagan (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:50:27 PM EST


    Parent
    Howzabout from the 7th Circuit... (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by StephenAG on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:04:17 PM EST
    ...Diane Wood? As a lay-person I liked the logic in a lot of her opinions (especially in the employment law category).

    Parent
    I missed that (none / 0) (#74)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:52:47 PM EST
    and thought you were holding out for more.

    Parent
    Karlan or Koh were the dream picks.... (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:56:03 PM EST
    Kagan appears to be quite good....

    Parent
    Reid is going to use the budget vote (none / 0) (#39)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:02:41 PM EST
    to win the other NV Senate seat. He's going to force Heller to vote yes again

    Baratunde Thurston... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 07:06:32 PM EST
    had what I thought was a very heartfelt and powerful post and video about this whole birth certificate thing.

    The only thing I could have wanted more of (none / 0) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:50:33 PM EST
    was Rove calling Trump part of the nutty right.  I'm good with the timing.  I'm certain this isn't the end of it either.  The facility that he was born at doesn't seem to be a hospital either, seems to be a separate facility for women to deliver at.  I was really upset when Evans said I couldn't use the one in Colorado Springs and had to deliver at the military facility...bleh.  Isn't there a ton of mileage there though?  All the crap they made out of not being able to find his records at the two hospitals?  As If that is the only place a baby can be born.  If the doctor is still living, can he get on the Daily Show and talk glowingly about they day he delivered a President of the United States?  If he isn't available does he have a spouse, siblings, or any children we can interview?

    His widow is still alive. (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Tony on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 08:53:40 PM EST
    TMZ, of all people, actually interviewed her today.  She found out that her husband delivered Obama this morning when she saw her husband's name on the birth certificate.  Pretty funny actually.  She's an Obama supporter.

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 05:16:16 AM EST
    whole hospital thing is nonsense. What hospital keeps records after a baby is born? I doubt the hospitals here in GA have records of either of my children because they send stuff to the county after they were born. I had to write to the county to get their birth certificates not the hospital.

    Parent
    Oh, definitely not the end... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 06:58:25 AM EST
    Our local news has a "Watercooler Question of the Day" every morning, and today's was along the lines of "Now that President Obama has released the long form of his birth certificate, do you think this will finally put the questions to rest?"

    The first response they showed was from someone who said no - that Obama or someone he knows could have faked it.

    I didn't stick around to see what other responses had been selected to show us.

    Parent

    Yup, there were a lot fo those (none / 0) (#130)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 12:47:01 AM EST
    I was born in one in NYC, I think called Women's Infirmary.

    Parent
    ha! (none / 0) (#145)
    by CST on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    "Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston"

    That's where I was born.  At least that's what my mother tells me.  I don't know that I've seen my "long form birth certificate" :)

    Parent

    I am hopeful (none / 0) (#96)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:44:11 PM EST
    that releasing the BC so early is the beginning of a return of election Obama, who was much better at outlining differences between the two parties than Pres. Obama has been so far.  Hopefully that will result in a policy impact.  I don't know how resonant the birth certificate issue is with people, really, but the Obama Admin has to be scratching their heads that Republicans and then a significant cadre of indies, and even Dems, can at least put up with this crap.

    Oh, for the good old days when we (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 07:08:31 AM EST
    had Election Obama, because that's surely what we need now - someone who can give a good speech and outline the "differences," because all that talk from Last Election Obama has translated into such transformational policy changes, hasn't it?

    What?  Oh, yeah...no, it hasn't.  The differences got smaller, and the policies picked up almost where Bush left off.  

    But, gosh, I'm sure once Obama assumes his 2012 Election persona, that marvelous and wonderful things will happen, ushering in the real Obama age of progressive governance.

    Or...not.  Because Election Obama and President Obama are not particularly well-acquainted with each other.

    And yes, I am definitely rolling my eyes.

    Parent

    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:57 AM EST
    what I said was particularly controversial.  Obama is going to try to get re-elected and the policies he advocates are going to be affected by that process.  That could make things worse or better.  If you think I'm wrong tell me.  But "I'm skeptical of Obama" isn't exactly a response, and it's certainly not new.

    Parent
    Ordinarily, I might share your hope that, (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 09:09:50 AM EST
    in the 18 months between now and November, 2012, Obama would almost be forced to govern as a Democrat, and that we might see some positive changes to policy as a result, but the realist in me - the one who appreciates that in the two years since he took office he has not governed as a Democrat, not even to help increase majorities in Congress in the mid-terms - knows that he will spend the next 18 months trying to win over independents and even moderate-to-conservative Democrats, while assuming he has the progressives in the bag, which isn't going to move us in the direction we so badly need to go.

    "I'm skeptical of Obama" is, in my opinion, quite an appropriate response to an "I'm hopeful" opinion, and given Obama's track record, I'd have to say that my skepticism is based on more substance than your hope.

    Which doesn't cheer me; I'd much rather have been wrong about Obama all along.


    Parent

    how popular is Trump's reality show? (none / 0) (#98)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 09:47:32 PM EST
    Such as among TalkLeft commenters?  

    You know how much I like reality tv (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:22:04 PM EST
    I think it's all bullsnot :)  And not very real :)  I'm as interested in a Trump reality show about as much as I'm interested in toenail fungus.

    Parent
    OK. That's one "no." (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 27, 2011 at 10:29:48 PM EST


    Parent
    I'd watch "Cheaters" before I would (none / 0) (#141)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 at 08:48:09 AM EST
    watch anything featuring "The Donald".

    Parent
    Wednesday Late Afternoon Open Thread | 149 comments (149 topical)

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