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Thursday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 08:39:48 PM EST
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    Thursday Night Open Thread | 32 comments (32 topical)

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    Anthem (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 09:58:52 PM EST
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in.

    We asked for signs
    the signs were sent:
    the birth betrayed
    the marriage spent
    Yeah the widowhood
    of every government --
    signs for all to see.

    I can't run no more
    with that lawless crowd
    while the killers in high places
    say their prayers out loud.
    But they've summoned, they've summoned up
    a thundercloud
    and they're going to hear from me.

    -- Leonard Cohen, Anthem

    Beautiful words (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 02:52:29 AM EST
    And always fitting in every land.  Surprisingly even Bali

    Parent
    "Everybody knows that the dice are loaded, (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 10:40:27 PM EST
    The poor stay poor; the rich stay rich."

    Parent
    Dick Cheney... (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by desertswine on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 10:02:37 PM EST
    is afraid to go to Canada because its too dangerous.

    Once a coward, always a coward. He didn't mind sending other people to die but he himself is afraid to go to Canada.  Canada can be a terrifying place, eh?  

    Isn't Canada "too dangerous" for him (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Peter G on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 11:25:58 PM EST
    because of the risk of arrest on international war crimes charges?

    Parent
    Cheney sent Canadian Maher Arar, (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by shoephone on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 11:53:11 PM EST
    a totally innocent man, to be tortured in Syria by Assad's evil henchman for a year and a half. Isn't Arar from Toronto?

    Parent
    Toronto (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 10:10:38 PM EST
    is too polluted already anyway. He should stay the eff out.

    Parent
    Sitting in the hospital with Josh tonight (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 03:21:44 AM EST
    It is my shift.  Googling around on my smart phone and first I see that the Pentagon (unnamed......sort of cowardly) said that bad soldier snapped purely out of stress, alcohol, and domestic issues.  Meanwhile his family has lawyered up with an attorney out of Seattle, Browne.  They say bad soldier did not want to deploy.  Did not feel deloyable, too broken.  I'm glad she lawyered up and refuses to be railroaded.  I hope the attorney she chose is a good one.  She won't be able to keep military justice from railroading her husband but she can protect herself and make certain that the truth is told in some venue.  Peace to his family tonight.  I would wish him peace too but that seems to be impossible for those with severe PTSD, and reminding them of that is its own torture from what I've seen.  

    I can't believe the Obama Administration is approaching PTSD in this fashion and forcing broken soldiers to deploy.  It looks like Iraq all over again.  What's next?  Stop-loss?

    Why is Josh in the hospital? (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by caseyOR on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 03:42:30 AM EST
    Did I miss something? Is this a planned stay at the hospital, or is the lad sick? If it is for a planned procedure, well, good thoughts coming your way that all goes well. If he is ill, good thoughts still coming, and I am sorry to hear it.

    Late news here says the unnamed soldier will be returned to the U.S. today or tomorrow, mostly likely to Leavenworth. The civilian attorney will also represent the soldier, not just his family, according to the news. Big deal being made about his alleged alcohol consumption on the night of the killings, and that this was a violation of rules that forbid alcohol while in Afghanistan.

    If liquor is not allowed where do our soldiers get it? It's not like Afghanistan has a liquor store on every corner.

    I am so not impressed with Panetta as SofD. Lots of blah, blah, blahing about how we must not let these unfortunate incidents (urinating soldiers, Koran burning, this recent killing)  affect the conduct of the war. How can it not affect the conduct of the war? Seems like we are rapidly burning through whatever goodwill we had built up with the Afghan people.

    Parent

    They are doing the halo traction on Josh (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 05:25:22 AM EST
    Now for more scoliosis correction.  They took his old titaium veptors out yesterday.  More flex in his back than the doctor thought would be there so that's good.  We tried doing it end January but we all came down with cold virus so surgery had to be cancelled.  Since Atlanta is much closer my husband can work some when Josh stabilizes.  Halo traction is really horrible though, poor kid.

    I'm so glad that the soldier has civilian lawyers.  I don't know how the black market is for alcohol in Afghanistan.  In Iraq it was easily available.  Some Iraqis made a living supplying US troops.  Someone can also sneak it to you in a care package.  The worst idea I ever heard was someone thinking about sending a soldier some Jack Daniels in shampoo bottle.  Bleh...but that was standard Army stuff.

    He went with Special Ops though.  He may have brought it himself in his gear.  By the time you reach that level nobody is going to be shaking you down.  If we have to start shaking down SEALs and those who assist them we've got problems too large to be at war.

    Our President had better change course on how suffering soldiers are treated or he's going to end up with the Bush/Rumsfeld army and military morale.

    Parent

    And it really upsets me that this could have been (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 05:37:17 AM EST
    Avoided and 16 people would still be alive.  This guy didn't just now snap.  He was having PTSD symptoms long before they sent him to Afghanistan and that doesn't improve once it starts by returning to war.  It deepens and gets worse.  If Panetta insists on sending broken soldiers back to wars he will make it very true that mass murder of local innocent civilians isn't unusual when America goes to war.

    Parent
    Couple Notes (none / 0) (#19)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 09:26:34 AM EST
    The lawyer his family has hired is the same one that defended the barefoot bandit.  He said he's had a couple of military cases.  The military will supply a lawyer as well, I assume for procedural help.  Not saying this guy is bad, but he didn't exactly do the barefoot bandit any favors and to me he should have more then a couple military cases.  He needs an expert on military trials and the death penalty I would think.  The military is going to be on trial and they are going to protect themselves at the expense of the this guy.

    This issue seems to be base specific.  300+ people who weren't diagnosed with PTSD had their, whatever it's called, reversed.  Seems as if the base was trying to save some dollars by not diagnosing expensive problems, PTSD being very expensive, but plenty of other problems with bad diagnosis.

    This was coming out before the shooting, now crickets.  Ditto for all the bad news from that base, it was streaming out last week, now, not a peep.  What happened to the officer that was trying to hire a hit-man to kill his wife and boss, what happened to the soldier that was brutally stabbed to death last week, what happened to all these mis-diagnosed soldiers.  

    And lastly, suicides account for more deaths in the military then combat.

    LINK
    LINK
    LINK
    LINK

    Parent

    They have shut down information coming out (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 11:13:10 AM EST
    Of Lewis.  I'm on my smart phone and haven't figured out linking yet.  But I did read one report that a Fort Lewis soldier who was suffering from PTSD under the condition of remaining unnamed told the press that Ft Lewis soldiers have been told they cannot talk to the press.

    You probably know though that in military justice, no matter who the accused soldier has representing him, he is at least doing serious time.  His wife was smart getting someone high profile that is civilian and not afraid to talk to the press.  They probably won't be able to just call him a bad soldier now and kill him.

    He'll still be lucky to hold his grandchildren someday, if he isn't so broken that he can't do that now.

    Parent

    Military vs. civilian attorney (none / 0) (#32)
    by shoephone on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:23:10 PM EST
    I, too, am confused about the use of a civilian attorney acting as primary in a military trial. But, of course, it's interesting that someone charged with a war crime in another country is able to receive trial in his own country to begin with.

    As for John Henry Browne's success record, it depends how you define "success." Sometimes, getting a verdict where your client is given  only a seven-year sentence for a long break-in and theft spree, which includes the theft of numerous boats and airplanes (which he then crashes) might be deemed a "success." Moore's verdict could have been much, much worse.

    On the other hand, there probably isn't a lawyer in the land who could have gotten Martin Pang a leaner sentence--Pang did, after all, set his mother's business on fire, a fire which killed four Seattle firefighters. (And fleeing to Brazil afterwards didn't help matters any.)

    One of Browne's worst failures -- his terrible defense of Darryl Cloud -- occurred about 20 years ago, and it still makes me sad and sick to think of it. That kid and his family were screwed by Browne's very bad advice, advice given purely out of ego, IMO.

    I used to know Browne a bit. He is a colorful character, and one who has become both famous and infamous in and around Seattle. I wish he wasn't representing the soldier, because it ends up giving too much attention to this infamous attorney, and the case is so sensitive, and is going to be so sensationalized.

    Parent

    GOP candidates can have $ex ... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Yman on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 08:08:08 AM EST
    ... again (premarital) in Laurens Co., SC.  The author of the purity pledge has resigned.

    Republicans wishing to get on the ballot in Laurens County, South Carolina can once again have premarital $ex and watch p0rn on the Internet now that party leader who backed a so-called "purity pledge" has resigned.

    ...

    Republican leaders at the state level quickly condemned the pledge as illegal an unenforceable.

    "The state party does not endorse this action, and no county party can legally keep a qualified candidate off the ballot," Moore told The State. "It's against state law to add anything on to [existing state requirements]."

    "This pledge was too far over the line," Moore explained to Raw Story on Thursday. "We quickly distanced ourselves from it and don't support it."
    Whew, that was a close run thing (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 10:44:02 AM EST
    They might have gone extinct if they had kept adhering to that pledge.

    Parent
    I Don't Get It (none / 0) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 09:34:03 AM EST
    Republicans didn't go bananas over this bit of non-sense ?  The story reads as if the R party is reasonable... never mind, just hit me, purity pledges are for chicks. The R will not have males waiting for marriage before they have sex.

    Parent
    With Mike D'Antoni (none / 0) (#5)
    by CoralGables on Thu Mar 15, 2012 at 11:23:20 PM EST
    now gone from Madison Square Garden,

    Have the Knicks seen the last of Linsanity?

    Lone nutcase times 20? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 07:35:15 AM EST
    KANDAHAR CITY (PAN): A parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday's killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.

    The probing delegation includes lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.

    The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

    Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.
    [snip]
    He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

    -- Pajhwok Afghan News
    I Saw Those Interviews (none / 0) (#21)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 09:44:01 AM EST
    The problem is their reasoning which amounts to "No one man could do this amount of damage..."

    No one saw anyone because he had NVG's on and it was dark.  I am sorry, but 20 soldiers are going to take out more then 16 sleeping and unarmed people in an hour.

    The Afghans are furious and either they don't realize the advanced training and skills of a US soldier, or they want us out and using this line to make is seem like we are covering up a purposeful act of many.

    Parent

    Also my apologies (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 09:55:39 AM EST
    I completely forgot that Night Vision Goggles make a soldier invisible, or worse in some cases make him look like 20 soldiers.

    Parent
    Yeah, I guess (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 09:53:05 AM EST
    Afghans are all too stupid to comprehend what they see with their own eyes. Hallucinating too.

    Thanks Scott.

    When did you get back from Afghanistan? Did you bring your film of the lone nutcase, with it's Pentagon Seal of Approval on it?

    Parent

    And it must be really dark in Afganistan at night (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 10:16:20 AM EST
    Every night the moon and the stars are always right up above me here on the west coast of North America and it's almost bright enough to read a book by.

    I have no idea how people manage to make it through the night in those backward countries on the other side of the earth where they are all blind at night, on top of being stupid to boot.

    Parent

    OK, Insults Aside (3.00 / 2) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 11:10:20 AM EST
    First, this guy wasn't sum chump out of boot camp.  He grabbed NVG's before leaving so I assume it was actually dark, not night time.

    Two, 16 people in one hour for 20 soldiers, that would mean in an hour at least four soldiers were unable to kill one sleeping unarmed person in a village.

    Three, the Afghan on duty reported, before one shot was fired, that one guy left base with his weapon.

    Four, one man confessed.

    I saw the interviews the day of, the claim is that one person couldn't have done that amount of damage.  Now maybe that morphed into "I saw...".  I don't know, but the day of no one claimed to have seen multiple shooters.  No one.

    I don't know what happened, but neither do you.  To me, the simplest answer and the one being ran clearly fits the facts much better then that the cover-up that would have to be involved here, and that cover-up would require mass incompetence in not being able to kill more civilians, unless of course their had designated targets which seems extremely unlikely considering most of them were young kids.

    I am not saying it didn't happen, but now it seems highly unlikely.  And please don't insult my intelligence by claiming you do.  You don't.

    And lastly, don't pretend to know what I am thinking and please stop putting words into my posts that I didn't type, or even think.  Those  insults against Afghans were from your mind and from you keyboard, not mine.  This is a reoccurring theme, you make up what you think I am thinking, then knock it down to make a point, even though I never typed or thought it.  To be clear, I don't think Afghans are stupid, blind, dense, or whatever other piece of ridiculousness you want to attribute to me.

    And did you seriously think the jab about not being there somehow doesn't apply to you ?

    Get a grip man.

    Parent

    I'm not insulting Afgahnis (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 11:24:53 AM EST
    You are.

    Parent
    protect Schmidt memo ...,... (none / 0) (#14)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 07:53:10 AM EST
    In late October 2008 before the voting took place there was a memo sent out about how to protect Steve Schmidt from being blamed for the failure of the McCain campaign.  He claims to know nothing about it and of course he was not one of the people to whom the memo was sent (duh...as if).

    I feel like I called this.  I should be more cynical not less.  Game change is a crock of sh*t, now how did I know that?  It's because I have never liked or trusted either political pundits or political hacks.  They are one little pool of incestuous water snakes.
    There is no doubt in my mind that they approached Palin, flattered her, convinced her she could do it and then were shocked she had a mind of her own and a strong will.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74094.html

    Of coooouuurse (none / 0) (#15)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 08:01:59 AM EST
    and Politico is the stagnant pond of choice for self serving hacks.

    Still have not watched Game Change, but still intend  to watch it as political historical fiction, loosely based on real events. Like 'The Tudors' on showtime.

    Parent

    Full Circle (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 08:05:08 AM EST
    Next we will find out that the PR firm that got the memo suggested that Politico hacks Heileman et al write the book Game Change to begin with. Do you doubt it?

    Parent
    But Game Change makes it clear (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 08:52:52 AM EST
    That Schmidt was behind the selection of Palin and did not vet her.  So I fail to make the connection.  It also made it that whether we had a competent Vice President or not was less important than winning because when he couldn't teach her ehat she needed to know he then resorted to trying to feed her scripts.

    Parent
    So, think how bad the unvarnished truth (none / 0) (#25)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 10:39:25 AM EST
    might be!

    Parent
    It's probably bad (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    Once again though how is the flick varnished? Things they couldn't double confirm didn't make it in.  Tells me that what you see isn't embellished in a varnished fashion.

    Parent
    Guilty verdict in the Tyler Clementi case. (none / 0) (#27)
    by observed on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 11:10:19 AM EST
    GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thursday Night Open Thread | 32 comments (32 topical)

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